Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Lockjaw of House Boltagon

Which Lesser House deserves Great House status?

Recommended Posts

Be it for in-universe reasons or just because you like the characters more or think they're more interesting, etc.

Personally I think the Manderlys should've been LPs of the Trident at the beginning of the series. They're far more interesting than the Tullys, IMO, and their family dynamics are great. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Velaryons should've been elevated to a higher lordship. It's kind of strange how after 300+ years of loyalty to Targaryens they haven't been rewarded for their service.

On a more personal note - Corbrays. No actual reason, I just like them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Names with justifications:

House Yronwood: They are the dominant House of Dorne, ruling the largest territory by far until the mediocre Mors Martell allied with a bunch of foreigners to usurp the historical order.

House Hightower: A far older and more illustrious history than the Tyrells, going back as a prominent power to the Dawn of time.

House Royce: Historically the powerhouse of the Vale. The Arryns are upjumped foreign Jonny-come-latelys compared to them.

Possibly House Vance: If I understand correctly, they actually gave the Tullys Riverrun for loyal service back when House Vance ruled the Riverlands.

House Blackwood: There is something mysterious and ancient about them, having been petty Kings in both the North and much later in the Riverlands, in ages gone by.

House Manderly: They were the second greatest House in the Reach, far outranking the Tyrells who were mere stewards 1000 years ago. The Mander itself was named after them, and they matched those heights once again in the North, becoming the richest House with the largest population and most manpower in their new homeland. Not quite Great House material maybe, but far closer to it than the upjumped Tyrells.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Names with justifications:

House Yronwood: They are the dominant House of Dorne, ruling the largest territory by far until the mediocre Mors Martell allied with a bunch of foreigners to usurp the historical order.

House Hightower: A far older and more illustrious history than the Tyrells, going back as a prominent power to the Dawn of time.

House Royce: Historically the powerhouse of the Vale. The Arryns are upjumped foreign Jonny-come-latelys compares to them.

Possibly House Vance: If I understand correctly, they actually gave the Tullys Riverrun for loyal service back when House Vance ruled the Riverlands.

House Blackwood: There is something mysterious and ancient about them, having been petty Kings in both the North and much later in the Riverlands, in ages gone by.

House Manderly: They were the second greatest House in the Reach, far outranking the Tyrells who were mere stewards 1000 years ago. The Mander itself was named after them, and they matched those heights once again in the North, becoming the richest House with the largest population and most manpower in their new homeland. Not quite Great House material maybe, but far closer to it than the upjumped Tyrells.

Agreed, expect for House Blackwood. They have a dead tree and first men ancestors, that's it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, John Doe said:

Agreed, expect for House Blackwood. They have a dead tree and first men ancestors, that's it. 

And they are former Kings.

I think the great thing about the Riverlands is that there are many Houses that could be in the Tullys position right now, Vances, Blackwoods, Brackens, Freys, Mallisters, Darrys, Charltons and even Mootons could have all been and still can become rulers of that realm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And they are former Kings.

Almost every major house can claim that honour. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I don't think that the Hightowers should be lord paramounts of the Reach, I think that the Hightowers should be sworn directly to the Iron throne, and have Oldtown and it's surrounding areas be its own region.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Names with justifications:

House Yronwood: They are the dominant House of Dorne, ruling the largest territory by far until the mediocre Mors Martell allied with a bunch of foreigners to usurp the historical order.

House Royce: Historically the powerhouse of the Vale. The Arryns are upjumped foreign Jonny-come-latelys compares to them.

:rolleyes:

Because no country in the history of eternity has ever been ruled by a dynasty that had moved there from somewhere else and living in an area for thousands of years makes you a "foreigner".

Anyway...

the biggest issue with "upscaling" minor houses is the Westerosi fetish for continuity when it comes to the rulers of a region. It doesm't ,matter if the Royces have the stronger army or lived in the area longer, the Arryns have been in charge since the Andal Invasion and they are going to go as far as changing Harry Hardying int Harry Arryn to make sure it stays that way.

The only great Houses that are in any sense of danger of being permanently replaced are also the dynasties that came to power the most recent:

The Tyrells, due to their originally relatively low status as stewards and their (again, relatively) shaky hold on the Reach pretty much dirves their every action in ASoIAF. I agree the Hightowers might be the most natural candidates to replace them, but since good old Garth liked to spread his seeds I can see a civil war happening if they ever fail.

The Greyjoys, due to the Kingsmoot system on the Iron islands I have an easier time seeing a change of dynasty happening here. Not sure who'd pick up the reigns from them... House Harlowe seems to be quite powerful with several holdings and branches.

And the Tullys, due to them lacking prestige, them never having been kings and them being stripped of power right now. I don't see Petyr succeeding them as Lord of the Riverlands on a permanent basis either (even if he was to survive the series) Not sure who'd replace them the Houses of the Riverlands all seem pretty much like pushovers...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

House Royce: Historically the powerhouse of the Vale. The Arryns are upjumped foreign Jonny-come-latelys compares to them.

I think you overestimate them. There was only a single Royce who ruled over the Vale, and that was High King Robar. Before him the Royces ruled Runestone as the Bronze Kings and were just one of the many petty Kings in the Vale and Mountains of the Moon. House Arryn ruled the Vale for far longer than House Royce ever did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you read TPTAQ it's obvious the Reach produces scheming social climbers.   Has to be a regional thing.   The Hightowers had their chance, for a very long time I add and used their power to cause a lot more trouble than do any good.   I think it's safe to say they caused the Dance of the Dragons.    The Tyrells are no different, a sight weaker perhaps, but the same social climbers.   Surely there are families more deserving of rule over the Reach.    I'm really interested in who will take the reigns in the Stormlands, Dragonstone, The Riverlands and Vale since there are no Baratheons even left in the areas of Stormlands or Dragonstone.   The RIverlands appear to be going to the Freys, but since we all know that won't last long, who is most likely to take over?  Again, who will take the Twins once the Freys are properly rewarded for their loyalty?  I realize they aren't the most popular but I agree with Jamie's assessment of Tytos Blackwood being more honorable than that Bracken jerk.   The Vance gang seems to be pulling strings against the throne and general rule with the BWB.    If Sweet Robert goes I can't even begin to imagine who will control the moon door if not that conniving Little Finger who will wipe out all the sensible rulers first.   He could use his army to take the Riverlands if he really wanted to, but I'm hoping an arrow finds his slimy eye before any of it happens in either region.    Then there is the Dreadfort in the North.   I wonder who will take that lordship once the Boltons are given their due?    The Martells and Starks have done impressive jobs ruling their lands.   Would the Yronwoods have had the fortitude to stand up to Aegon and his dragons?   Badassery gets bonus points when I consider rulers.    I look forward to a Stark ruling in the North again.  Since it seems that the Wildlings have indeed integrated I wonder if they will become proper Northerners with lands?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

North: Manderlys, becasuse they've proven to be competent in developing and advancing the North, given for example that they gav the North its first major city.

Riverlands: Both Blackwood and Bracken could make a claim given that they have tradition and power to back it up, although it would probably mean that the other side in their feud would have to go away to prevent a constant state of near civil war.

Vale: Can't really think of anyone but the Arryns as I don't know if the Royces are as important as a family or if its Yohn Royce who has lifted them up

West: There is only one master of the West...Lannister! :D

Stormlands: No other Stormland House than Baratheon/Durrendon has actually made much of an impact on me so I can't really tell.

Reach: Both Hightower and Florent would work as the Hightower has the power and traditions while the Florents have the claim and traditions to back their rule.

Dorne: I suppose Yronwood could work but then again, the Martells united Dorne about as fair and square as any other Great House united their region. So I guess it belongs to them.

Iron Islands: I don't think that changing House would change much given that they all come from the same culture and given that the Greyjoys do seem to have a pretty good claim due to their descent from the Grey King.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

House Harlaw could take over the Iron Islands and things would be better for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

House Harlaw could take over the Iron Islands and things would be better for everyone.

Would they? Besides the Reader is there something to show that the lords of Harlaw have been all that different from the other Ironmen in general?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

:rolleyes:

Because no country in the history of eternity has ever been ruled by a dynasty that had moved there from somewhere else and living in an area for thousands of years makes you a "foreigner".

Exactly. The Houses Normandy and Habsburg are good examples. Nobody cared about them being "foreigners" at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, John Doe said:

Exactly. The Houses Normandy and Habsburg are good examples. Nobody cared about them being "foreigners" at all. 

Quite a lot of people probably cared about William the Conqueror being a foreigner, considering that he killed or drove away most Anglo-Saxon land owners and replaced them with his Normans. 

For the Habsburgs it have been more true. But they were just a family, they didn't come together with an entire ethnic group.

The Hightowers should definitely be the most deserving of great house status though. Not only do they have the history for it, their current land holdings alone should make them comparable in power and wealth to other great houses like the Greyjoys, Martells and maybe the Baratheons (assuming they cease being a royal house). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Iron Islands: I don't think that changing House would change much given that they all come from the same culture and given that the Greyjoys do seem to have a pretty good claim due to their descent from the Grey King.

I think that practically all the Ironborn houses claim descent from the Grey King, with the exception of House Goodbrother.

 

8 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Would they? Besides the Reader is there something to show that the lords of Harlaw have been all that different from the other Ironmen in general?

Nope. Rodrik the Reader differs from the norm, but that doesn't mean anything. Balon's father differed from the norm to the point that he tried to free the Ironborn's thralls, forbid most reaving, discouraged the taking of salt wives, encouraged the marrying of mainland ladies, and brought maesters to the Iron Islands. And look how his sons turned out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/06/2016 at 5:39 PM, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Quite a lot of people probably cared about William the Conqueror being a foreigner, considering that he killed or drove away most Anglo-Saxon land owners and replaced them with his Normans. 

For the Habsburgs it have been more true. But they were just a family, they didn't come together with an entire ethnic group.

A bit confused what people refer to with the Habsurgs...their move from (modern day) Switzerland to (modern day) Austria? Both these places where part of the Holy Roman Empire back then.

Or is it their conquest of Hungary and a whole bunch of Slavic areas? Well that one didn't turn out too well once the idea of nation states took hold, but it worked for centuries before that.

Or is it the side-branch that ruled the Spanish Empire for a while?

Still, nobody says that the raise of a foreign dynasty can't be problematic, but history is still full of examples where it worked, from the 25th Dynasty of Egypt to the House of Windsor (Sachsen-Gothia). Cleopatra was ethnically Greek, the monarchs of modern day Spain are a branch of House Bourbon (and the place was ruled by a branch of House Habsburg some-when before that) and Kublai Kahn was a Mongol. 

And anyway calling a dynasty "foreign" after 6000/4000/2000 and (about)1000 years of ruling over and living in the Vale and Dorne, respectively is nothing short of silly. Especially with the Arryns, the whole place is named after them "The Vale of Arryn"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×