Dany Now Has Two Stark Sympathizers By Her Side

[illinifan]

1 hour ago, tugela said:

Actually, not.

There would have to be witnesses to the fact that he actually was Rhaegar's child, and there are none still living. He would also require Rhaegar's acknowledgement (Lyanna's would not do, and that is the best that could be hoped for). Unfortunately Rhaegar was dead when he was born, so there is no way for that to happen.

Then there would also be the rules of succession in Westerosi society, which would likely correspond to medieval society. In general, a bastard would not inherit anything. There were a few instances in early medieval society when bastards did inherit titles, but those were few in number, were always contested, and always involved a child acknowledged by the father after he was born.

If Daenerys is true born (and not a bastard herself, which is possible based on various things in the books), she would be the rightful heir of the Targaryen legacy. If she is a bastard, and a sister to Jon, then his claim would precedence over hers, although both of them would have a very weak legal claim and would require force of arms to take the crown. If both of them were Rhaegar's bastards, then actually Robert would probably have been the trueborn king after Viserys died.

It depends on whether Lyanna and Rhaegar were married and whether there were witnesses.  If Lyanna survived and someone else could vouch for the marriage, like Arthur Dayne, then Jon would have the best claim to the throne.  Of course, these are all legal niceties.  Power is where people believe it to be.  And the legal niceties of succession have broken down to the point that Cersei, who has absolutely no claim on the Iron Throne, is queen and Jon himself became KitN by acclimation before Sansa's claim.

[blckp]

16 hours ago, illinifan said:

It depends on whether Lyanna and Rhaegar were married and whether there were witnesses.  If Lyanna survived and someone else could vouch for the marriage, like Arthur Dayne, then Jon would have the best claim to the throne.  Of course, these are all legal niceties.  Power is where people believe it to be.  And the legal niceties of succession have broken down to the point that Cersei, who has absolutely no claim on the Iron Throne, is queen and Jon himself became KitN by acclimation before Sansa's claim.

actually it doesn't matter whether Rhaegar and Lyanna was married or not cause Rhaegar line is not succession line anymore. Viserys was named heir to throne by king passing over Rhaegars kid/line,so Rhaegar line is not succession line anymore ,after Aerys death Viserys was crowned king and named Daenerys as heir

[illinifan]

2 minutes ago, blckp said:

actually it doesn't matter whether Rhaegar and Lyanna was married or not cause Rhaegar line is not succession line anymore. Viserys was named heir by king passing over Rhaegars kid/line,so Rhaegar line is not succession line anymore ,after Aerys death Viserys was crowned king and named Daenerys as heir

When they were fleeing Dragonstone?  Okay then.  And the reason why Viserys has a claim is because Rhaegar's children were thought to be all dead.

[Kytheros]

16 minutes ago, blckp said:

nope, she is the named heir by last king not through line succession heir so there is no contender  for her claim unless other can try usurp her claim through rebellion , like aegon III usurped his half sister (named heir) and killed her which is known as dance of dragons , 

You're missing the point.

Daenery is the de facto heir of Viserys. Nobody's arguing that. 

However. A trueborn son of Rhaegar would be the de jure heir of Viserys. For that matter, a trueborn son of Rhaegar should have been the de jure heir of Aerys (but Jon wouldn't have been born yet when Aerys died)

 

The Great Council that settled the succession on Aegon the Unlikely set and supported the precedent that a trueborn male Targaryen comes before all female Targaryens in the succession. That's ignoring the fact that Rhaegar is older than Daenerys, and so his children would come before her anyways.

 

1 minute ago, blckp said:

actually it doesn't matter whether Rhaegar and Lyanna was married or not cause Rhaegar line is not succession line anymore. Viserys was named heir by king passing over Rhaegars kid,so Rhaegar line is not succession line anymore ,after Aerys death Viserys was crowned king and named Daenerys as heir

No. Rhaegar's line was - and is - still in the line of succession. Neither he nor they were ever disinherited by Aerys, merely passed over. There is an important difference.

A trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna has, by established succession law, precedent, and practice, the de jure strongest claim to the Iron Throne as a Targaryen.

Daenerys has the strongest de facto claim to the Iron Throne as a Targaryen.

There is a difference between the de jure and de facto positions and claims.

[blckp]

16 hours ago, illinifan said:

When they were fleeing Dragonstone?  Okay then.  And the reason why Viserys has a claim is because Rhaegar's children were thought to be all dead.

no he was named heir in red keep ,rhaegars kids was there too,after that he was sent away with queen rhaella and targaryen supports to dragonstone to ensure his safety (daenerys was born there during the greatest storm ever happened and destroyed targaryen fleets which she would known as daenerys stormborn)

[blckp]

Quote

You're missing the point.

Daenery is the de facto heir of Viserys. Nobody's arguing that. 

However. A trueborn son of Rhaegar would be the de jure heir of Viserys. For that matter, a trueborn son of Rhaegar should have been the de jure heir of Aerys (but Jon wouldn't have been born yet when Aerys died)

 

The Great Council that settled the succession on Aegon the Unlikely set and supported the precedent that a trueborn male Targaryen comes before all female Targaryens in the succession. That's ignoring the fact that Rhaegar is older than Daenerys, and so his children would come before her anyways.

you keeps missing the part where daenerys was named as heir by viserys,she not automatically inhered heir after him as last targaryen she is the named heir, its same as viserys was named heir by aerys passing over rhaegars line, which same with all other named heir passing over first born or other things, if she wasn't named heir to throne and next in line ruler/king/queen then viserys kids would have best claim if he had kid then after that relatives which jon snow would had claim as nephew if he was trueborn and daenerys would had claim as sister

 

unless heir was named by king, like rhaenyra daughter of viserys I or any other named heir

 

Quote

 

No. Rhaegar's line was - and is - still in the line of succession. Neither he nor they were ever disinherited by Aerys, merely passed over. There is an important difference.

A trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna has, by established succession law, precedent, and practice, the de jure strongest claim to the Iron Throne as a Targaryen.

Daenerys has the strongest de facto claim to the Iron Throne as a Targaryen.

There is a difference between the de jure and de facto positions and claims.

 

rhaegar line is done,irrelevant,useless,death line,not king line, disinherited

after Viserys named and crowned king his line is succession line , his childrens are kings line, its not first time heir was named, rhaegar line was done/disinherited the moment line went to Viserys , 

rhaegar and his childrens whether trueborn or frogborn or whatever doesn't matter anymore , they have no fucking succession line, rhaega is just some prince who was replaced in history book other than that he is irrelevant

[Kytheros]

Passed over and disinherited are two very different things.

Rhaegar's line was not disinherited by Aerys. They were passed over by Aerys for his immediate heir.

After Viserys was named Aerys's de facto heir, the de jure order of succession was Aegon, Jon if trueborn, Rhaenys, Daenerys; the de facto order of succession after Viserys would have been Aegon, Rhaenys, Daenerys.

Aegon and Rhaenys died. The de facto order of succession after Viserys was Daenerys, as the only other known Targaryen.

 

After Viserys, the de facto heir is Daenerys. However, established precedent has been fairly clear - any trueborn male comes before all trueborn females in the Targaryen succession to the Iron Throne. As such, the de jure heir, would be a trueborn Jon, son of Rhaegar. However, proving that Jon is a trueborn son of Rhaegar is going to be borderline impossible.

As a result, Daenerys is the de facto heir, and also believes herself to be the de jure heir (as does basically everyone else in Westeros at this point). Her having dragons makes her position as de facto heir stronger than a trueborn Jon's position as de jure heir.

 

A trueborn Jon, son of Rhaegar, would be able to argue a de jure claim stronger than that of Daenerys, daughter of Aerys/Sister of Rhaegar and Viserys. However, Dany's dragons backing her de facto claim trump any immediate de jure claims.

The situation will doubtless be resolved by marriage and their children. Or one dying without issue.

[blckp]

17 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Passed over and disinherited are two very different things.

Rhaegar's line was not disinherited by Aerys. They were passed over by Aerys for his immediate heir.

After Viserys was named Aerys's de facto heir, the de jure order of succession was Aegon, Jon if trueborn, Rhaenys, Daenerys; the de facto order of succession after Viserys would have been Aegon, Rhaenys, Daenerys.

Aegon and Rhaenys died. The de facto order of succession after Viserys was Daenerys, as the only other known Targaryen.

 

After Viserys, the de facto heir is Daenerys. However, established precedent has been fairly clear - any trueborn male comes before all trueborn females in the Targaryen succession to the Iron Throne. As such, the de jure heir, would be a trueborn Jon, son of Rhaegar. However, proving that Jon is a trueborn son of Rhaegar is going to be borderline impossible.

As a result, Daenerys is the de facto heir, and also believes herself to be the de jure heir (as does basically everyone else in Westeros at this point). Her having dragons makes her position as de facto heir stronger than a trueborn Jon's position as de jure heir.

 

A trueborn Jon, son of Rhaegar, would be able to argue a de jure claim stronger than that of Daenerys, daughter of Aerys/Sister of Rhaegar and Viserys. However, Dany's dragons backing her de facto claim trump any immediate de jure claims.

The situation will doubtless be resolved by marriage and their children. Or one dying without issue.

omg .... making viserys heir and king is disinheriting rhaegars line , he didnt make viserys regent of aegon or babysitter or whatever shit, he made him king and and give him rhaegars caslte and all his belongs and sent him away to ensure his safety while left rhaegars kids to die....fucking hell...viserys kid>rhaegars kid this is disinheriting , rhaegars kids can have claim as viserys niece,nephew but they fucking disinherited.......

Verys->Daenerys->be it rhaeger himself or be it his bastard kid

[illinifan]

2 hours ago, blckp said:

omg .... making viserys heir and king is disinheriting rhaegars line , he didnt make viserys regent of aegon or babysitter or whatever shit, he made him king and and give him rhaegars caslte and all his belongs and sent him away to ensure his safety while left rhaegars kids to die....fucking hell...viserys kid>rhaegars kid this is disinheriting , rhaegars kids can have claim as viserys niece,nephew but they fucking disinherited.......

Verys->Daenerys->be it rhaeger himself or be it his bastard kid

No it isn't.  Aerys kept Rhaegar's kids and wife in the Red Keep as hostages.  Aerys was paranoid and thought that Rhaegar wanted depose him. (He was right to be paranoid of course).  Keeping Elia and the kids in the Red Keep was meant as a way to keep Rhaegar in line so he did not go to the Trident, end the rebellion, and come marching back with the army to depose daddy dearest.  Someone had the foresight to send Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone for their safety.  Elia and the kids stayed in the Red Keep as Aerys' hostages.  

As for the line of succession, Aegon would have been king after Rhaegar but he was brutally murdered.  I believe that Viserys would have been king after that because the line of succession favored male inheritance.  However, a trueborn heir of Rhaegar and Lyanna would be king after Aegon and before Viserys.  It is just that such a true born heir was unknown.  

Of course, in the story, Dany is the known heir.  She has the dragons.  I am assuming if Jon finds out his heritage from Bran and declares himself king, the kingdoms laugh at it.  The man who is most like Ned Stark is now the rightful Targaryen king?  Power is what people believe it is.  It is an illusion.  However, the truth remains that if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married under the laws of succession Jon is the rightful king. 

[blckp]

19 hours ago, illinifan said:

No it isn't.  Aerys kept Rhaegar's kids and wife in the Red Keep as hostages.  Aerys was paranoid and thought that Rhaegar wanted depose him. (He was right to be paranoid of course).  Keeping Elia and the kids in the Red Keep was meant as a way to keep Rhaegar in line so he did not go to the Trident, end the rebellion, and come marching back with the army to depose daddy dearest.  Someone had the foresight to send Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone for their safety.  Elia and the kids stayed in the Red Keep as Aerys' hostages.  

As for the line of succession, Aegon would have been king after Rhaegar but he was brutally murdered.  I believe that Viserys would have been king after that because the line of succession favored male inheritance.  However, a trueborn heir of Rhaegar and Lyanna would be king after Aegon and before Viserys.  It is just that such a true born heir was unknown.  

Of course, in the story, Dany is the known heir.  She has the dragons.  I am assuming if Jon finds out his heritage from Bran and declares himself king, the kingdoms laugh at it.  The man who is most like Ned Stark is now the rightful Targaryen king?  Power is what people believe it is.  It is an illusion.  However, the truth remains that if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married under the laws of succession Jon is the rightful king. 

yeah Aerys started to suspect Rhaegar after Tywin left, i think this was reason why he decided make Viserys line succession line, Viserys was crowned as heir when Aegon was still alive , it happened before mountain murdered him so there is no such thing heir was unknown thus Viserys was choosen,  Rhaegar line was thrown out, and Viserys line started , and Viserys choose/named Daenerys as heir so even if Viserys had kid Daenerys would come before Viserys kids unless she would disinherited, Rhaegar line comes last , after viserys and crown heir daenerys

 

[illinifan]

4 hours ago, blckp said:

yeah Aerys started to suspect Rhaegar after Tywin left, i think this was reason why he decided make Viserys line succession line, Viserys was crowned as heir when Aegon was still alive , it happened before mountain murdered him so there is no such thing heir was unknown thus Viserys was choosen,  Rhaegar line was thrown out, and Viserys line started , and Viserys choose/named Daenerys as heir so even if Viserys had kid Daenerys would come before Viserys kids unless she would disinherited, Rhaegar line comes last , after viserys and crown heir daenerys

 

Where was Viserys crowned heir in the book?  Everything from the books said that Rhaegar is still the heir.

[blckp]

 

18 hours ago, illinifan said:

Where was Viserys crowned heir in the book?  Everything from the books said that Rhaegar is still the heir.

after rhaegars death , masters Yandel

Quote

When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King’s Landing with Rhaegar’s children as a hostage against Dorne.

i think aside from suspecting rhaegar for rebellion aerys also didn't liked dorne, thus rhaegars line was reduced from succession line to hostage line with no right, lol

[Jon and Dany Targaryen]

19 hours ago, tugela said:

It won't be that simple. IMO it is going to turn out that the Night King is Rhaegar himself, plus Daenerys will be the child of Rhaegar and Ashara.

So it will be brother/sister fighting a corrupted undead father in fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. Rhaegar did not die at the trident, it will turn out to be someone else under a ruby glamor. Rhaegar would have gone beyond the wall to fulfill his destiny, but got turned into a white walker by the children. He became their warrior general, but got out of their control when he became obsessed with revenge (just like Lady Stoneheart did after she was resurrected).

Essentially the story will be star wars played out in medieval society, with Jon being Luke Skywalker, Daenerys being Princess Leia, and Rhaegar being Darth Vader. Darth Vader was their father, but became corrupted by the dark side. They were spirited off an raised by different families. Leia as a princess, and Luke being raised by an uncle and aunt. I think the same sort of story (generally) will play out in the show as well.

 

I'm guessing Jon will be the one to warn Dany et al about the "others" but will they take heed? The south seems pretty clueless at this point.

[illinifan]

2 hours ago, blckp said:

 

after rhaegars death , masters Yandel

i think aside from suspecting rhaegar for rebellion aerys also didn't liked dorne, thus rhaegars line was reduced from succession line to hostage line with no right, lol

And?  That means nothing exactly.  

[blckp]

21 hours ago, illinifan said:

And?  That means nothing exactly.  

it means rhaegars line is disinherited and viserys heir/kids would get throne , not rhaegars heir/kids

[illinifan]

51 minutes ago, blckp said:

it means rhaegars line is disinherited and viserys heir/kids would get throne , not rhaegars heir/kids

Then why is FAegon counting on revealing that he is King and waltzing into the Red Keep and taking the Crown.

[blckp]

16 hours ago, illinifan said:

Then why is FAegon counting on revealing that he is King and waltzing into the Red Keep and taking the Crown.

 if citadel masters buries/hides the documents about viserys then he will have his claim ,aside that pretty sure faegon is manipulated blackfyre fed with bunch of bs

Quote

Aegon is a son of Rhaegar Targaryen, who was himself the eldest son of Aerys II Targaryen, which would, under normal circumstances, place Aegon higher in the Targaryen succession line than both Viserys (Aerys II's second son) and Daenerys (the daughter of Aerys II). However, documents from the end of King Aerys II's reign give doubt to the fact that Aegon's claim is truly stronger

 

[[Deleted]]

On 7/3/2016 at 6:28 PM, tugela said:

It won't be that simple. IMO it is going to turn out that the Night King is Rhaegar himself, plus Daenerys will be the child of Rhaegar and Ashara.

So it will be brother/sister fighting a corrupted undead father in fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. Rhaegar did not die at the trident, it will turn out to be someone else under a ruby glamor. Rhaegar would have gone beyond the wall to fulfill his destiny, but got turned into a white walker by the children. He became their warrior general, but got out of their control when he became obsessed with revenge (just like Lady Stoneheart did after she was resurrected).

Essentially the story will be star wars played out in medieval society, with Jon being Luke Skywalker, Daenerys being Princess Leia, and Rhaegar being Darth Vader. Darth Vader was their father, but became corrupted by the dark side. They were spirited off an raised by different families. Leia as a princess, and Luke being raised by an uncle and aunt. I think the same sort of story (generally) will play out in the show as well.

I've never heard this theory before, but that's really interesting!

[illinifan]

1 hour ago, blckp said:

 if citadel masters buries/hides the documents about viserys then he will have his claim ,aside that pretty sure faegon is manipulated blackfyre fed with bunch of bs

 

Yes.  FAegon is a fake.  Hence, fake Aegon.  But if he was real and suddenly showed up, he would have had the best claim to the throne.  That is what FAegon and Jon Con believe although he is not really Aegon.  

And it is ridiculous to think that a man who had gone so mad and paranoid that he was shouting "burn it all down" had papers drawn up disinheriting his eldest son and grandson in favor of his second son.

[KingInTheBay]

All this will be immaterial when the dragons abandon Dany to help Jon fight the white walkers. Its established from Tyrions scenes last season that dragons are intelligent, and beleive they will leave Dany and her battle in the south to confront the real enemy. That should prove his identity Dany clearly, as well as making the battle in the south interesting, rather than a dragonbake.