Drink from the cup of ice....drink from the cup of fire...

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

HERE IS WISDOM LET THOSE UNDERSTAND THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE FOR THE SONG BELONGS TO THE PRINCE WHO WAS PROMISED

According to Aemon  Targaryen , Daenerys is the PWWP . The cup is a metaphoric cup that the prince or princess must drink from, pleasure and pain , good and evil , hatred and desire , dragons and the Others , Rhllor and the Great Other , winter and summer . BE CAREFUL GRRM constantly warns us by reading too much into prophecy .

[LiveFirstDieLater]

The Shape of Shadows and the Bitter Cup

In my opinion the Shade of the Evening is the same as the weirwood paste fed to Bran. The Weirwoods of Westeros being a different color tree from those of he undying, but seemingly otherwise the same.

When Dany reaches the Heart Room of The House of the Undying, she is told a bunch of interesting phrases, but I did want to point out this interesting association:

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"I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?"
. . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . .
. . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .

First, the shape of shadows… Of all the shadows in Mirri’s tent Dany can only make out two…

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 What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

 The shapes of the shadows are important… it seems there were other’s but these two are the ones Dany recognizes, they are important in relation to her.

 As for the cups of fire and ice… I’m going to quote Mel and try and make some associations:

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 "The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

I’m not sure that I agree with all the reasoning Mel is using here, especially good and evil, but the association of ice-bitter and fire-sweet is an interesting one. And seems to carry some weight, let’s look at some more Ned quotes:

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That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

So what cup has been passed to Dany?

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"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children.You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."

"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

 

Now there are a lot of other great uses of bitter throughout the series, a quick search will reveal a surprising number of very plot relevant quotes.

But this one was too good to pass up. Exile, the bitter cup, is one that Dany has most certainly tasted.

There are some other interesting bitter cups I’ll include as well, since they may or may not be relevant, including in Mirri’s tent:

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"No," Dany said. "Please. Please."

"Yes." He covered her with silk, though she was burning. "Sleep and grow strong again, Khaleesi. Come back to us." And then Mirri Maz Duur was there, the maegi, tipping a cup against her lips. She tasted sour milk, and something else, something thick and bitter. Warm liquid ran down her chin. Somehow she swallowed. The tent grew dimmer, and sleep took her again. This time she did not dream. She floated, serene and at peace, on a black sea that knew no shore.

 

In this case the bitter cup appears to be about forgetting, and again, like exile, floating away from shore… in darkness and in ignorance.

Arya drinks a bitter cup to make herself blind in the House of White and Black:

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That was a lie. They often lied to her, to test her. No stick was better than a pair of eyes. It was good to have, though, so she always kept it close. Umma had taken to calling her Stick, but names did not matter. She was her. No one. I am no one. Just a blind girl, just a servant of Him of Many Faces.

Each night at supper the waif brought her a cup of milk and told her to drink it down. The drink had a queer, bitter taste that the blind girl soon learned to loathe. Even the faint smell that warned her what it was before it touched her tongue soon made her feel like retching, but she drained the cup all the same.

"How long must I be blind?" she would ask.

 

Theon also tastes a bitter cup, and there is no doubt this one has to do with ice:

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That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time . . . until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.

 

And Tyrion prefers sweet lies to bitter Starks:

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That night, alone in his tower cell with a blank parchment and a cup of wine, Tyrion found himself thinking of his wife. Not Sansa; his first wife, Tysha. The whore wife, not the wolf wife. Her love for him had been pretense, and yet he had believed, and found joy in that belief. Give me sweet lies, and keep your bitter truths. He drank his wine and thought of Shae. Later, when Ser Kevan paid his nightly visit, Tyrion asked for Varys.

Even Jon partakes in the bitter cup, and while Mance (Rattleshirt) burned brightly, the light still blinded and there is a bitter truth beneath, certainly about Mance (still alive!) and probably about Stannis (false king), and dare I say there even might be secrets about Jon even he is blind to?

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"The queen's men are saying that the King-Beyond-the-Wall died craven. That he cried for mercy and denied he was a king."

"He did. Lightbringer was brighter than I'd ever seen it. As bright as the sun." Jon raised his cup. "To Stannis Baratheon and his magic sword." The wine was bitter in his mouth.

"His Grace is not an easy man. Few are, who wear a crown. Many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say, and some bad men have been good kings."

 

This post is far too long to begin with so I won’t get to far into the sweet cups, fire… but just for completeness sake here are two Dornish examples:

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The prince left it to Ricasso, his blind seneschal, to rise and propose the toast."Lords and ladies, let us all now drink to Tommen, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms."

Serving men had begun to move amongst the guests as the seneschal was speaking, filling cups from the flagons that they bore. The wine was Dornish strongwine, dark as blood and sweet as vengeance. The captain did not drink of it. He never drank at feasts. Nor did the prince himself partake. He had his own wine, prepared by Maester Myles and well laced with poppy juice to ease the agony in his swollen joints.

The white knight did drink, as was only courteous. His companions likewise. So did the Princess Arianne, Lady Jordayne, the Lord of Godsgrace, the Knight of Lemonwood, the Lady of Ghost Hill … even Ellaria Sand, Prince Oberyn's beloved paramour, who had been with him in King's Landing when he died. Hotah paid more note to those who did not drink: Ser Daemon Sand, Lord Tremond Gargalen, the Fowler twins, Dagos Manwoody, the Ullers of the Hellholt, the Wyls of the Boneway. If there is trouble, it could start with one of them. Dorne was an angry and divided land, and Prince Doran's hold on it was not as firm as it might be. Many of his own lords thought him weak and would have welcomed open war with the Lannisters and the boy king on the Iron Throne.

 

Of course Doran does not partake of the sweet cup, and since we know he is plotting vengeance against the Lannisters, I don’t believe this is a coincidence. Also, worth noting that Doran appears to be drinking a bitter cup instead.

His son meanwhile, seems to have his own sweet cup as he tries to convince himself of something:

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The night crept past on slow black feet. The hour of the bat gave way to the hour of the eel, the hour of the eel to the hour of ghosts. The prince lay abed, staring at his ceiling, dreaming without sleeping, remembering, imagining, twisting beneath his linen coverlet, his mind feverish with thoughts of fire and blood.

Finally, despairing of rest, Quentyn Martell made his way to his solar, where he poured himself a cup of wine and drank it in the dark. The taste was sweet solace on his tongue, so he lit a candle and poured himself another. Wine will help me sleep, he told himself, but he knew that was a lie.

He stared at the candle for a long time, then put down his cup and held his palm above the flame. It took every bit of will he had to lower it until the fire touched his flesh, and when it did he snatched his hand back with a cry of pain.

 

I love this example since it includes the dark/light symbolism and the sleep/waking symbolism from the opposite perspective I was trying to illustrate above.

The sweet solace (like a sweet lie compared to a bitter truth?) of the cup, then lighting a candle. He lies to himself about the sweet cup helping him sleep (that’s the bitter cup) and when he puts down the cup, he is burned by the flame (truth?).

But back to Dany, and the House of the Undying... I believe the cup of ice and cup of fire relate to the visions she saw on the way in... and as the op suggested, point to her parents being R+L. The house with the red door representing her exile, the cup of ice served by ned, and Aerys (who she fails to recognize) representing the lie told her by Viserys about her parentage.

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In the middle of the journey of our life

I found myself astray in a dark wood

where the straight road had been lost.

How hard it is to say what it was like

in thick of thickets, in a wood so dense and gnarled

the very thought of it renews my panic.

It is bitter almost as death itself is bitter.

But to review the good it also brought me

I will speak about the other things I saw there.

 

The start of Dante’s Divine Comedy...

From which Robert Frost got the inspiration for “Two roads diverged in a yellow wood...”

And, of course, Frost’s poem, “Ice and Fire”, from which the AsoIaF series gets its name... 

[Megorova]

On 25.06.2016 at 7:11 PM, TheReal_Rebel said:

There is a theory that Quaithe is Dany's mother or  possibly another female related to Dany.  This has been postulated by Lady Gwen of Radio Westeros due to the fact Quaithe eyes are wet with tears when she meets  Dany.

First time when they met, her eyes weren't wet. Then they traveled together, all the way from Vaes Tholor to Qarth. And that scene with wet eyes, happened only when they met again, for a second time, in Qarth. That scene is one of clues that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. Her eyes were mentioned in a book at least twice, and both times their color was omitted. That's because if GRRM wrote, that she had mismatched eyes, then it would be too obvious, who she really is.

Clues about her identity:

1. ACOK, Dany I: "The woman in the lacquered wooden mask said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms, “I am Quaithe of the Shadow. We come seeking dragons.”"

She knows Common Tongue, so it's possible that her origin is Westeros. Mirri Maz Duur also knew Common Tongue, but unlike Quaithe, she explained where and from whom exactly (maester Marwyn in Asshai) did she learned it.

2. ACOK, Dany II: "Last of the three seekers to depart was Quaithe the shadowbinder. From her Dany received only a warning. “Beware,” the woman in the red lacquer mask said."

Shiera Seastar was daughter of Serenei of Lys. Serenei was a sorceress, and was using magic, to look younger than her real age. Shiera was bathing in blood to stay young and beautiful:

The Sworn Sword: " "You've known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?" "Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty."

So I think that Quaithe's red mask in laquered by blood. She's using blood magic, same as Melisandre is using magic rubies, to alter her and Mance's appearance.

3. Her eye color was never described:

AGOT, Dany IX: "the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky.",

ACOK, Dany II: "but from Quaithe she had gotten only the rare cryptic word. And it disturbed her that she had never seen the woman’s face."

ACOK, Dany III: "Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask."

ADWD, Dany II: "A woman stood under the persimmon tree, clad in a hooded robe that brushed the grass. Beneath the hood, her face seemed hard and shiny. She is wearing a mask, Dany knew, a wooden mask finished in dark red lacquer."

"Moonlight shone in the woman’s eyes."

ADWD, Dany X: "the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear.", "Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight. “Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”" - If Dany saw her mask, then she saw her eyes too, but again no color was given.

4. "eyes wet and shiny"

Moisture in eyes - tears - salty liquid - sea water - Sea;

shiny eyes - stars - Star.

Seastar.

5. AGOT, Dany IX: "Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one"

"After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars."

When Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Quaithe came there, using glass candle (same as maester Marwyn, he stopped Dany's internal bleeding, and before dissapearing, said to Dany, that Rhaegar was the last dragon). Those kings of the past, with Valyrian blades, are Targaryen kings, and Dany's ancestors. And the meaning of them crying as one, is that there was one person with Dany, that urged her to push, and she same as Dany, combines in herself bloodline of those kings - she's Shiera Seastar, relative of Dany's ancestors.

6. "Her mask is made of starlight"

Shiera also prefered accessories with stars. She had two silver necklaces. One with star sapphires, and one with star emeralds.

7. Quaithe - 7824843 = 36 = 3 + 6 = 9

Shiera - 744372 = 27, Seastar - 7327827 = 36

Shiera Seastar = 27 + 36 = 63 = 6 + 3 = 9

Quaithe = Shiera Seastar

8. Quaithe can predict future. That's a genetic trait of Targaryens and their bastards.

Lord Bloodraven always knew, what important events were going to happen, and people said that Shiera was helping him, and that she was a sorceress, same as her mother. Her predictions are very precise. She saw coming of pale mare, Euron Greyjoy and red priest Moqorro, Quentyn Martell, Tyrion Lannister, fAegon, Jon Connington, and warned Dany about Illyrio.

She could have found out, thru usage of glass candle, who are people that plan to come to Dany. But glass candle can only show people's current whereabouts, not their future. So the only way, how Quaithe knew for sure, that all of those people will definitely come to Dany, is because she has a gift of foresign. Probably she's as strong as was Daenys the Dreamer.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 3/12/2018 at 1:07 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

One of the things that the blue men tell Daenerys is that some things are not yet made... which means in progress. Dany says (and George confirms) that by the end of ADWD in Daenerys' last chapter, she has chosen the words of her house, "Fire and Blood," which means Dany chooses the cup of fire.

Dany embraces her Targ heritage. But isn't she already strongly associated with fire, as in there's really no need for her to choose the cup of fire? In the HotU, the ice magic ends with Drogon roasting the Undying so I don't think there was ever any risk of Dany choosing the cup of ice. Unless, there are new interesting things coming up with Boss 2 Euron. This guy is probably really into the Great Other ice magic, as seen in the sample chapters, Dany may have to undergo some ice trials here. Unless, of course, if the shade of the evening is really the cup of ice she drinks from. 

On 3/12/2018 at 4:39 AM, Megorova said:

… but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice."

Who is Dany's dead lover from her dream? -> Jon Snow.

Rhaegar: “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

Thus Jon is both of those cups - half-Stark and half-Targaryen, dead and revived with Melisandre's kiss of fire, amidst salt and smoke.

That dream is most likely about Euron, who does have bruised blue lips and is probably a dead servant of the Other heavy into terrible magic. He is very likely the corpse on the prow of a ship Dany sees in the Undying visions. Dany rides a mount to dread, as she is told, which means she probably ends up riding Drogon to where Euron is to fulfill the second/middle segment of the child of three prophesy. 

Remember that Jon is not revived in the books. He wargs into Ghost first, because that's what Mel sees in the flames. Half-Stark also doesn't necessarily mean ice magic, which is associated with the Others. 

[The Fattest Leech]

On 3/13/2018 at 0:30 PM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Dany embraces her Targ heritage. But isn't she already strongly associated with fire, as in there's really no need for her to choose the cup of fire?

She does, but to her up until the end of ADWD, she associates that with her desires to sit the throne and rule Westeros. And along the way we have Mirri and Quiathe that feed her riddles, and at one point she cries out that she is "done with the riddles". Add to that all of the compromising she has done in Meereen and she is lost. She has to remember that she is a dragon, probably the "last" dragon, and she does this, both literally as she eats the horse with Drogon, but also metaphorically which is what allows her to eat as a dragon does, and I suspect that in TWOW we are going to see a lot more dragon-fire show because she will no longer be afraid to Drogon will be using his fire on people (like Hazzea, etc), but she will command him to. This is her realizing her psi-link bond with Drgon is fire and blood related and she has some choice and control over it, just as Jon is going to learn about him being a warg and how to control it as he is healed.

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In the HotU, the ice magic ends with Drogon roasting the Undying so I don't think there was ever any risk of Dany choosing the cup of ice. Unless, there are new interesting things coming up with Boss 2 Euron. This guy is probably really into the Great Other ice magic, as seen in the sample chapters, Dany may have to undergo some ice trials here. Unless, of course, if the shade of the evening is really the cup of ice she drinks from.

Bran chooses the cup of ice when he eats the weirwood paste. These two are going to converge on that darkling stream at some point.

Euron is a hurricane that will sweep through, but like all hurricanes, they die once the eye of the storm passes He is not end game material, I suspect.

• Aeron tugged his beard, and thought. I have seen the storm, and its name is Euron Crow's Eye. "For now, send only silence," he told the lord. "I must pray on this."

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

16 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Bran chooses the cup of ice when he eats the weirwood paste. These two are going to converge on that darkling stream at some point.

**facepalm** lol. But is weirwood paste ice magic, or like green magic?

17 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Euron is a hurricane that will sweep through, but like all hurricanes, they die once the eye of the storm passes He is not end game material, I suspect.

He's not end game but the second big boss Dany has to defeat before she moves on to Westeros methinks (and others have been saying). He's the "dread" part in the Undying prophesy, most likely, which will lead to Dany lighting that fire for death. Euron also has a strong connection to the bad magic that will be important for understanding the things going on with WW. I think the Euron arch was supposed to start in ADWD, but Dany chapters got left out from Feast and some were cut out from ADWD. Unless GRRM changes his mind, he seems to have had some truly terrible things planned with Euron. Maybe Dany embraces the whole fire and blood thing, as in to rule as her heart says, not her advisers, and then all this grimdark stuff happens with Euron and she realizes what she really must do. I mean, she is also the child of a prophesy, even if it's not the PTWP one. The Undying tell her that they have been waiting for her for a thousand years. The whole mystery surrounding her is so easy to obsess over and she isn't even my #1 character. 

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

**facepalm** lol. But is weirwood paste ice magic, or like green magic?

Well, I speculate that Jon will be armoured in "ice" and will act as Bran's knight in some way- it is a metaphor (existential nightmare!) for acknowledging one's path. There are two types of cold in the story, and I it seems the Others are different than the "regular" brew. Bran always wanted to be a knight, but chances are he won't ever leave the cave and/or walk again. Bran will be the "knight of the mind" as it is described in the series by a maester, but we readers know what type of knight of the mind Bran really is

There is plenty of valid speculation that Bran will contact Jon while Jon is unconscious and they will have a chat. Jon will wake a "man" knowing what needs to be done, and maybe he will even be able to have some sort of future contact with Bran through dreams, through warging Ghost, or through dreams as needed.

Bran seems to be going back in time via the tree screens and he will see what happened in the past, the causes, the outcome, and most likely the solution, but it will be up to Bran to present this info to Jon so Jon can act on his behalf.

The theme of two "lesser" sides coming together to create something stronger is shown throughout the story. I suspect this includes Sansa and Arya will have to come to terms to work together against Baelish and/or Lady Stoneheart. Brienne and Jaime with Oathkeeper (maybe with Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail coming back together as "Ice"), and so on and on.

"The land is one," as Jojen says. Also, "by night, all cloaks are black," as the old wizened Jojen also says.

4 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

He's not end game but the second big boss Dany has to defeat before she moves on to Westeros methinks (and others have been saying). He's the "dread" part in the Undying prophesy, most likely, which will lead to Dany lighting that fire for death. Euron also has a strong connection to the bad magic that will be important for understanding the things going on with WW. I think the Euron arch was supposed to start in ADWD, but Dany chapters got left out from Feast and some were cut out from ADWD. Unless GRRM changes his mind, he seems to have had some truly terrible things planned with Euron. Maybe Dany embraces the whole fire and blood thing, as in to rule as her heart says, not her advisers, and then all this grimdark stuff happens with Euron and she realizes what she really must do. I mean, she is also the child of a prophesy, even if it's not the PTWP one. The Undying tell her that they have been waiting for her for a thousand years.

I agree, and that is why it seems to me we are seeing the ice parallel of what must be done in Bran. It seems Bran is often overlooked as one of the "prophecy children" because, actually I am not sure why. I mean, the kid started his journey with a near death experience which lead him to a harsh environment to be trained by a very powerful mulch-man-god! Bran is going to be amazing in TWOW.

4 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

The whole mystery surrounding her is so easy to obsess over and she isn't even my #1 character. 

Tell me about it! I have been on a Dany thing off and on the last few weeks. Good stuff.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

She does, but to her up until the end of ADWD, she associates that with her desires to sit the throne and rule Westeros.

I mean her claim to the throne is because of her Targ heritage... so yes. But “drink from the cup of fire” is parallel to drink from the cup of ice. Both equal in relation to her, because she’s descended from both and she believes lies about both... namely that she doesn’t know R+L=D

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And along the way we have Mirri and Quiathe that feed her riddles, and at one point she cries out that she is "done with the riddles".

I count that up to acting like a child... gotta kill that, because you’re not gonna outlive the riddles.

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Add to that all of the compromising she has done in Meereen and she is lost.

Her whole story, back to the first chapter is about finding family and home... the problem is she is in Meereen, and come winter, the lone wolf dies.

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She has to remember that she is a dragon, probably the "last" dragon, and she does this, both literally as she eats the horse with Drogon, but also metaphorically which is what allows her to eat as a dragon does, and I suspect that in TWOW we are going to see a lot more dragon-fire show because she will no longer be afraid to Drogon will be using his fire on people (like Hazzea, etc), but she will command him to. This is her realizing her psi-link bond with Drgon is fire and blood related and she has some choice and control over it, just as Jon is going to learn about him being a warg and how to control it as he is healed.

Wait a minute... she’s the mother of dragons, not the last dragon... at least not yet. They seem kinda exclusive, at least as long as the children (literal dragons) live.

“Remember who you are” is literal, about her parentage... not some esoteric reminder to make sure to burn and bloody the world. I’ve never understood how that makes sense. She’s already crucifying people under her rule en mass... If anything she needs to chill out a bit.

I have no idea why you think that about Jon though... he’s as much fire as Dany is (or at least half).  Also, it might be hard to practice Warging if Ghost gets killed to resurrect him.

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Bran chooses the cup of ice when he eats the weirwood paste. These two are going to converge on that darkling stream at some point.

First, Weirwood Paste is the same thing as Shade of the Evening, the Undying are men who have a functioning Essos Godswood operation going. 

Second, why do you associate Bran with the silver and the darkling stream? The underground river? 

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Euron is a hurricane that will sweep through, but like all hurricanes, they die once the eye of the storm passes He is not end game material, I suspect.

You realize the eye is in the middle of the storm, so when it passes things get ugly again, right?

But, I would agree Euron isn’t end game material...

[Son of Man]

On 3/11/2018 at 10:24 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

One interpretation that I like follows:

Cup of Fire = Shade of the Evening

Cup of Ice = Weirwood Paste

Dany was asking for information and they seem to be saying this is what she must do in order to learn the truth.  

This, and perhaps the truth is to slay the lies.  It is a hero's journey of discovery.  

 

[Son of Man]

  I think cup just mean cup in most cases and bitter just means an unpleasant taste.  This particular usage is prophecy and thus have a special meaning.

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

On 2016-6-25 at 6:48 AM, tugela said:

So, what it appears that it is a metaphor for passing down responsibility through family. If the same metaphor is used for Daenerys, then the cup of fire and cup of ice must refer to her mother and father, and she is responsible for carrying on their legacy. The cup of fire would be Rhaegar, and the cup of ice would be Lyanna. Drinking from both would be accepting and carrying out the familial responsibilities of both houses. That is what she has to do.

Interesting ... I like it. 

[The Fattest Leech]

 

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Her whole story, back to the first chapter is about finding family and home... the problem is she is in Meereen, and come winter, the lone wolf dies.

I see what you are doing there

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I have no idea why you think that about Jon though... he’s as much fire as Dany is (or at least half).  Also, it might be hard to practice Warging if Ghost gets killed to resurrect him.

Because who says Jon is d-e-d dead? The author of this book series has not said that.

If while Jon is under and he does meet Bran, Jon will chose the cup if ice. Both Jon and Dany have visions of Jon armoured in ice. He will probably learn the truth of his parentage, but with the Targ side comes the throne, and he does not show any signs at all of wanting the throne, so he is essentially turning away from his fire to chose ice. Metaphorically speaking.

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

First, Weirwood Paste is the same thing as Shade of the Evening, the Undying are men who have a functioning Essos Godswood operation going. 

The Shade trees are essentially the opposite of weirwoods in location, color, and iconography- it is inverted compared to the where Bran is in the story. An inverted tree is supposed to be a symbol of rejecting (the tree of) life in many cultures. A zaqqum tree is said to spring out of the bottom of hellfire. Pyat essentially acts as a "devil" and tries to trick Dany in to misdirecting her. Stay to the right, but oh, come here straight ahead. Nothing is real, but everything can hurt and kill. This is a place of shadows.

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Second, why do you associate Bran with the silver and the darkling stream? The underground river? 

It is "darkling plain" in it's original form and the way that GRRM uses it in his other books (he uses the actual poem or parts of it a few times), but here in ASOIAF it translates to both physical location, and also mental. Dany is on dark plain next to a stream, just as Bran is at the end of ADWD. It comes from the poem Dover Beach, and it essentially contemplates their faith to the surrounding world and how one fits in to that world and it also applies to both of our mental power players. ADWD is the close of act 2 of the series, which means we are finishing up the (self) confrontation phase of the series before we get the resolutions/time to act phase in part 3.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say I was associating Bran with the silver? I don't want to guess.

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You realize the eye is in the middle of the storm, so when it passes things get ugly again, right?

But, I would agree Euron isn’t end game material...

The 'eye of the storm' thing was a joke, hence the emoji. It was a play on Euron's eye issue.

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

He is very likely the corpse on the prow of a ship Dany sees in the Undying visions.

I think that that's his brother, the other Greyjoy, whom he imprisoned and tied to a ship's prow (Victarion? ). Because I don't think that Euron is the kind of person to sadly smile, when he will be dead, he's someone who will be swearing and cursing and raging, not smiling sadly.

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Dany rides a mount to dread

Those three "mounts" are her husbands.

The one to bed - Drogo, the one to dread - Hizdahr, the one to love - Jon.

7 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Remember that Jon is not revived in the books. He wargs into Ghost first, because that's what Mel sees in the flames. Half-Stark also doesn't necessarily mean ice magic, which is associated with the Others. 

He may die, and then be revived. Even though he will warg into Ghost, doesn't mean that his human body will be alive during that, or that after Mel will perform a fire-kiss ritual on him, that he will be completely restored. The ice part is that he was dead, same as white walkers. Maybe he even will turn into WW for a short time. 

Could be that what Mel saw, Jon then wolf then Jon again, is not the future, maybe it's just a sign to her that he is a warg. Though maybe it is a prophetic vision. Could be both.

[chrisdaw]

It is simple symbolism for Jon's (ice) and Dany's (fire) child. The child has both their blood, it has drank from both ice and fire.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Shade trees are essentially the opposite of weirwoods in location, color, and iconography- it is inverted compared to the where Bran is in the story. An inverted tree is supposed to be a symbol of rejecting (the tree of) life in many cultures. A zaqqum tree is said to spring out of the bottom of hellfire. Pyat essentially acts as a "devil" and tries to trick Dany in to misdirecting her. Stay to the right, but oh, come here straight ahead. Nothing is real, but everything can hurt and kill. This is a place of shadows.

Funny, what you describe is just how I see Bloodraven’s Lair! Given that I suspect Bloodraven wasn’t the three eyed crow, it has become more and more apperant to me that the trees may not be so different despite the color of their bark/leaves. In fact there are a lot of similarities:

Both are led there by a servant that is something more, or less, than human. (Pryat Pree / ColdHands) but this servant does not enter with them.

Both locations feature large groves of magical trees (The indigo trees / frozen weirwood grove) 

Both locations are full of pint sized creatures (the servitors / the Children)

Both Dany and Bran are fed an odd tasting yet seemingly magical substance that is made from the trees and “lets them see” (Shade of the Evening / Weirwood seed paste)

Both are given instructions not to wander (always the last door on the right / network of caverns)

Both have had many who enter that do not leave (Pryat Pree talks about the front door of the House / the bones)

Both have “living” corpses at their heart (The Undying in the Heart Room / Blood Raven, and the Children, in the Heart Trees)

Both are promised magic and power if they join the occupants (The Undying offer to Dany / Blood Raven’s offer to Bran)

Both see visions, I believe of their respective families, both see Jon (Dany’s Rooms and prophetic threes / Bran’s seeing through the Heart Tree in Winterfell)

Both have some odd time stuff going on (Dany is only gone for a few moments to those outside / Whatever is going on with Bran and the moon)

And of course it shouldn’t have to be said but the Undyiong seem to try and eat Dany at the end… LOOK OUT BRAN!

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that that's his brother, the other Greyjoy, whom he imprisoned and tied to a ship's prow (Victarion? ). Because I don't think that Euron is the kind of person to sadly smile, when he will be dead, he's someone who will be swearing and cursing and raging, not smiling sadly.

Spoiler

This is Aeron Greyjoy.  He is literally tied to the prow of Euron's ship in the Foresaken chapter meant as a sacrifice of holy blood. He is also a 'dead man' having been drowned several times.

 

[LynnS]

58 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And of course it shouldn’t have to be said but the Undyiong seem to try and eat Dany at the end… LOOK OUT BRAN!

Indeed.  The Undying are corrupt and deceitful.  So whatever purpose the cotf have for Bran may have something to do with consuming or co-opting his power.  It's a bit chilling that they creep up on him as the lights go out after giving him the weirwood paste that will chain him to the tree.  

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that that's his brother, the other Greyjoy, whom he imprisoned and tied to a ship's prow (Victarion? ). Because I don't think that Euron is the kind of person to sadly smile, when he will be dead, he's someone who will be swearing and cursing and raging, not smiling sadly.

Euron is literally described having blue, bruised lips, while Victarion isn't. The smiling sadly may refer to "grey joy." We don't know much about Euron yet to discern his real personality. Also, the coldness of the body and all that points to Euron rather than Victarion. The Damphir sample chapter from TWOW suggests that Euron maybe a servant of the Great Other, or is rather into serious sacrificial black magic. 

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

Those three "mounts" are her husbands.

The one to bed - Drogo, the one to dread - Hizdahr, the one to love - Jon.

No, the mounts are animals. She rides a mount to bed, we are shown imagery of her riding Silver on her wedding night. So it's literally her riding the silver horse to Drogo. The second one is a mount to dread. This probably refers to her riding Drogon and ending up in the middle of nowhere facing a Dothraki horde. This event probably leads to Euron, the dread. Then there's a third mount riding to love, which is probably Jon, of course. The mount could be a dragon or Ghost. It's said that direwolves can grow to be as tall as ponies. Dany is small enough to ride one. These relationships may not necessarily refer to husbands per se, but people Dany has meaningful, monumental and maybe passionate relations with. We know where her relationship with Drogo leads, to the birth of her dragons. The other two, like Hizdar and Daario, are not really relationships because one is created out of political necessity and the other physical, maybe. Dany doesn't love or feel much for either. I'm not really sure why she's with Daario. 

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

he ice part is that he was dead, same as white walkers. Maybe he even will turn into WW for a short time. 

He can't turn into a WW, they are a completely different species. He can warg into other species (Ghost) but he can't turn his body into a different species. I highly doubt he can warg a WW because how mysterious and weird they are. 

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

Could be that what Mel saw, Jon then wolf then Jon again, is not the future, maybe it's just a sign to her that he is a warg. Though maybe it is a prophetic vision. Could be both.

Could be. But if it is, then Jon would be dead by the end of ADWD. Dead as a door nail. 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is Aeron Greyjoy.  He is literally tied to the prow of Euron's ship in the Foresaken chapter meant as a sacrifice of holy blood. He is also a 'dead man' having been drowned several times.

Nice catch. I totally didn't think of this. I remember now that Euron makes him drink shade of the evening, so he must have blue lips now too. 

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Nice catch. I totally didn't think of this. I remember now that Euron makes him drink shade of the evening, so he must have blue lips now too. 

"A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly." - CoK Dany IV