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Drink from the cup of ice....drink from the cup of fire...


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10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I wouldn't worry about things that are not going to happen...

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From GRRM specifically about TWOW:

“I think we’re gonna start out with a big smash with the two enormous battles,” Martin says.

...

As he’s noted before, Martin says the Dothraki are coming back into the story (“in a big way”), and he says “a lot of stuff is happening at The Wall.”

I also asked Martin about one extremely eagerly anticipated character pairing: Tyrion and Daenerys. What will their interaction be like?

“Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.” http://ew.com/article/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/

 

But that was nearly 4 years ago. Since then things could have changed. Also he said "I think", not that it will definitely be. He also said - I think TWOW will be released in 2015, then it turned out that he wrote only half of TWOW and half of ADOS by 2016, etc.

Spoiler

That chapter with Stannis in TWOW was supposed to be in ADWD. Many chapters that were supposed to be in AFFC were moved to ADWD (or was it from ADWD to TWOW? :unsure:). So the same thing could happen with two next books. He wrote 1000+ pages for ADOS, that's because events in both of those books, are happening at the same time, only in different locations, aside from the end of ADOS, that goes much further than TWOW <- that's based on structure and POV's of all previous books.

Also what he said about Dany and Tyrion, that for most of the book they will be apart, doesn't mean that her POV will be going in parallel with Tyrion's. There was already released two of Tyrion's chapters. So one of big battles, is a battle for Meereen, and it's happening without Dany, it will be long over, months over before she will come back with Dothraki. So for most of the book there will be chapters in Meereen, with Tyrion's and Barristan's POV. Second big battle is battle for Winterfell. On that side, there will be Theon's and Asha's POV. There's also Sansa's POV in The Vale, and back in Meereen Euron's. And there's also Jon Con's in Stormlands, and eventually he and Golden Company will go to King's Landing. So nearly all events in Westeros and Essos, are already covered by other POV, without Jon or Dany. And those "lots of things" that are happening at The Wall, may be not even from Jon's POV, it could be Melisandre's chapter. One chapter, with many things happening in it, not many of Jon's chapters.

What I'm saying, is that what GRRM said nearly 4 years ago, none of those things, that you mentioned him saying, doesn't guaranty, that we will have Jon's and Dany's chapters in TWOW. Could be that there will be one chapter from both of them, near the very end of book. So we will find out a very limited amount of information, about what happened with them, and then we will be left hanging for another 10 years, until release of ADOS.

You're very optimistic. Let's hope that I'm wrong, and that you're right. I prefer your version, of what will be ^_^

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I’ll have to check in to this a little more closely, but it seems that it could be another inverted tree thing? When you look at what everyone else is doing, what is wrong is right ( or the other way around :huh:)

 

Also, the phrase “bad for trade” is interesting because that was an excuse the Citadel used for... something... but I’ll have to refresh my memory on that, too, later. 

I'm not sure.  It's the business of getting lost if you take the wrong path that Dany is warned about before entering.  So I wonder if becoming trapped leaves a part of your soul behind:  the eye-eater sucking on Dany's eye is Sybassion (?) since his behavior mirrors the undying one in the HoU.  When Dany burns the place, his soul is released and he is no longer blind?

If so, that could mean there is a counterpart in the real world for those Dany sees:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars. There were women among them, dressed in gowns of surpassing loveliness. Shafts of sunlight slanted through windows of stained glass, and the air was alive with the most beautiful music she had ever heard.
A kingly man in rich robes rose when he saw her, and smiled. "Daenerys of House Targaryen, be welcome. Come and share the food of forever. We are the Undying of Qarth."
"Long have we awaited you," said a woman beside him, clad in rose and silver. The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be.
"We knew you were to come to us," the wizard king said. "A thousand years ago we knew, and have been waiting all this time. We sent the comet to show you the way."
"We have knowledge to share with you," said a warrior in shining emerald armor, "and magic weapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered."

 

I've wondered if the Kingly Man is actually Euron and the wizard king is Qyburn.  Qyburn has a thing for twisting nipples and he takes offense when Cersei is disgusted wtih his rags although he's careful not to show it. 
Dany is told that Pyat Pree is gathering the 'surviving' wizards.  Some were perhaps destroyed when she burned the place down; but perhaps others were not in residence?
Just a strange thought about the place.

 

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24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure.  It's the business of getting lost if you take the wrong path that Dany is warned about before entering.  So I wonder if becoming trapped leaves a part of your soul behind:  the eye-eater sucking on Dany's eye is Sybassion (?) since his behavior mirrors the undying one in the HoU.  When Dany burns the place, his soul is released and he is no longer blind?

If so, that could mean there is a counterpart in the real world for those Dany sees:

I've wondered if the Kingly Man is actually Euron and the wizard king is Qyburn.  Qyburn has a thing for twisting nipples and he takes offense when Cersei is disgusted wtih his rags although he's careful not to show it. 
Dany is told that Pyat Pree is gathering the 'surviving' wizards.  Some were perhaps destroyed when she burned the place down; but perhaps others were not in residence?
Just a strange thought about the place.

 

Ooh good points here. 

Unfortunately I am still out here in the barn and haven’t had a time to sit and read through things more closely, but you have some good points here.  

(Back to shoveling <_<)

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

But that was nearly 4 years ago. Since then things could have changed. Also he said "I think", not that it will definitely be. He also said - I think TWOW will be released in 2015, then it turned out that he wrote only half of TWOW and half of ADOS by 2016, etc.

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That chapter with Stannis in TWOW was supposed to be in ADWD. Many chapters that were supposed to be in AFFC were moved to ADWD (or was it from ADWD to TWOW? :unsure:). So the same thing could happen with two next books. He wrote 1000+ pages for ADOS, that's because events in both of those books, are happening at the same time, only in different locations, aside from the end of ADOS, that goes much further than TWOW <- that's based on structure and POV's of all previous books.

Also what he said about Dany and Tyrion, that for most of the book they will be apart, doesn't mean that her POV will be going in parallel with Tyrion's. There was already released two of Tyrion's chapters. So one of big battles, is a battle for Meereen, and it's happening without Dany, it will be long over, months over before she will come back with Dothraki. So for most of the book there will be chapters in Meereen, with Tyrion's and Barristan's POV. Second big battle is battle for Winterfell. On that side, there will be Theon's and Asha's POV. There's also Sansa's POV in The Vale, and back in Meereen Euron's. And there's also Jon Con's in Stormlands, and eventually he and Golden Company will go to King's Landing. So nearly all events in Westeros and Essos, are already covered by other POV, without Jon or Dany. And those "lots of things" that are happening at The Wall, may be not even from Jon's POV, it could be Melisandre's chapter. One chapter, with many things happening in it, not many of Jon's chapters.

What I'm saying, is that what GRRM said nearly 4 years ago, none of those things, that you mentioned him saying, doesn't guaranty, that we will have Jon's and Dany's chapters in TWOW. Could be that there will be one chapter from both of them, near the very end of book. So we will find out a very limited amount of information, about what happened with them, and then we will be left hanging for another 10 years, until release of ADOS.

You're very optimistic. Let's hope that I'm wrong, and that you're right. I prefer your version, of what will be ^_^

Well, I tend to follow what the author says in and out of the story. I don’t think he purposely lies to anyone, tricksy maybe, but this is his stated plan and he makes it clear there is a lot to show. Maybe I am too optimistic  :dunno:, but it’s the only thing I have and I prefer to not worry about things have little to no chance of happening. 

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55 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure.  It's the business of getting lost if you take the wrong path that Dany is warned about before entering.  So I wonder if becoming trapped leaves a part of your soul behind:  the eye-eater sucking on Dany's eye is Sybassion (?) since his behavior mirrors the undying one in the HoU.  When Dany burns the place, his soul is released and he is no longer blind?


Just had a chance to re-read this part you wrote, and yeah, I think at this point what we are talking about here stretches beyond the original cup of ice and fire discussion in to the bigger picture; the aftermath of the burning.

Damn! So much to do and so little time. I will get back to you on this later :cheers:

 

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15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon is injured, for sure, and he will probably lose consciousness because he is warging Ghost and his body will go limp (this happens to Bran as well), but don't let the "blood welling" worry you too much. George uses that phrase eight times in the book and none of those times are fatal. If that person did die (about half do not die), then the only reason they do die is because of some other secondary fatal wound they take after their blood welling cut. :)

Oh, and yes, there is a wood's witch healer or two at Castle Black, as well as a skinchanger who can help guide the situation.

He's stabbed four times and feels getting cold. I was totally convinced that Jon is going to die, as in lose his body, and in the last moment he wargs into Ghost and becomes a wolf as Mel sees in the flames. Then later maybe his human mind is separated and put back into a new body or the same one, which could be frozen or something. Ghost could technically get there, grab Jon's body, and they run into the forest or the wilderness to hide I suppose and find a woods witch. Well, we know he's not going to die die. 

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14 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

He's stabbed four times and feels getting cold. I was totally convinced that Jon is going to die, as in lose his body, and in the last moment he wargs into Ghost and becomes a wolf as Mel sees in the flames. Then later maybe his human mind is separated and put back into a new body or the same one, which could be frozen or something. Ghost could technically get there, grab Jon's body, and they run into the forest or the wilderness to hide I suppose and find a woods witch. Well, we know he's not going to die die. 

Nah. Jon’s not dead, and there are different kinds of cold- winter cold and Other cold, and Marsh and friends just basically summoned the cold of the Others. He probably will die in the very end, maybe second lifeing Ghost who is described as a wolf worthy of a king (paraphrasing a tad), but the stabbing most likely did not kill Jon this time around. There is much more to this than just this scene, there are callbacks to Jon’s past-present-future parallels. And I’m not so sure what many think Mel’s role is or was is actually what it will be. Remember, she is a charlatan and religious zealot hellbent on a misinterpreted prophecy, a favorite of GRRM’s low key antagonist. 

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Nah. Jon’s not dead, and there are different kinds of cold- winter cold and Other cold, and Marsh and friends just basically summoned the cold of the Others. He probably will die in the very end, maybe second lifeing Ghost who is described as a wolf worthy of a king (paraphrasing a tad), but the stabbing most likely did not kill Jon this time around. There is much more to this than just this scene, there are callbacks to Jon’s past-present-future parallels. And I’m not so sure what many think Mel’s role is or was is actually what it will be. Remember, she is a charlatan and religious zealot hellbent on a misinterpreted prophecy, a favorite of GRRM’s low key antagonist. 

Ah, but she doesn't misinterpret the daggers in the dark now does she? I thought she was a "charlatan and religious zealot," as just about everyone did until GRRM put that explanation Mel POV chapter in ADWD. She does get genuine visions, but doesn't know how to interpret them. It's not her visions that make the mistake, it's Mel. And in one of her very genuine visions she sees Jon being a man, a wolf, and then a man again. 

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2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Oh, and yes, there is a wood's witch healer or two at Castle Black, as well as a skinchanger who can help guide the situation.

In addition to The Fattest Leach mentioning the Woodswitches there is also Clydas who was Aemons eyes for decades. If he hasn't picked up one or two things from the Maester in that time he'd have to be a lackwit. 

Personally I think it will be the woodswitches who tend to him, but certainly I think Clydas will provide some additional assistance and access to Aemon's rooms and all they hold; such as medicines, herbs, dressings, etc. 

I don't think he's dead. 

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2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

He's stabbed four times and feels getting cold.

Actually no, he wasn't stabbed 4 times, and he didn't felt getting cold, he felt cold, that's different than getting cold. He fell into the snow, that's why he felt cold.

Also about 4 stabs:

1 - "When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin."

2 - "Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking."

<- it isn't definite that that wound was serious. If his liver or some blood artery wasn't cut, then this wound is not mortal. Also I find it interesting that the wound was smoking. Could be that either Melisandre used on him fire magic, to stop the bleeding, or he has a blood of a dragon, that became activated in him some time prior. Melisandre did burn the eagle from afar, so what stoppes her from burning Jon's wound, while she isn't even close to him?

3. - "When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow."

4. - "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …" - So he felt only the cold, which could actually mean that he never felt the fourth knife, because there was no more attacks. When he fell, someone else stopped his attackers.

So first dagger barely grazed his skin, and there probably was no fourth. So the only wounds that Jon got for sure is second (dagger in the belly) and third (dagger between shoulder blades).

He was wearing multi layered clothes. Wool, boiled leather, cape, maybe even ringmail. All of that lessenned strength and depthness of impact. So none of those two wounds isn't very serious. Painful, but not mortal.

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10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So first dagger barely grazed his skin, and there probably was no fourth. So the only wounds that Jon got for sure is second (dagger in the belly) and third (dagger between shoulder blades).

He was wearing multi layered clothes. Wool, boiled leather, cape, maybe even ringmail. All of that lessenned strength and depthness of impact. So none of those two wounds isn't very serious. Painful, but not mortal.

Not to mention that we also have no idea of the size of said daggers, People assume an awful lot in regard to Jon's stabbing and we just do not know. 

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33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Not to mention that we also have no idea of the size of said daggers, People assume an awful lot in regard to Jon's stabbing and we just do not know. 

Exactly.

For example at the Trident Barristan Selmy was wounded by arrow, spear and sword, and didn't died. I think that the SPEAR wound is way more serious, than the stab of the dagger. So Jon has a high chanses of surviving. Even though Melisandre supposedly saw Jon warging into Ghost, doesn't mean that Jon did it while his human body was dead. He could have switched to the wolf's body, to escape from pain. So his body may be alive, and getting medical treatment, and recovering. And until he will be fine, he will stay inside Ghost.

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2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ah, but she doesn't misinterpret the daggers in the dark now does she? I thought she was a "charlatan and religious zealot," as just about everyone did until GRRM put that explanation Mel POV chapter in ADWD. She does get genuine visions, but doesn't know how to interpret them. It's not her visions that make the mistake, it's Mel. And in one of her very genuine visions she sees Jon being a man, a wolf, and then a man again. 

Dang it! You temp me so with this response, but alas, I can’t answer in full at the moment. I will later, though. 

Cheers! 

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The drink and the porridge are drugs.  This part of the story is about drug addiction.  Like the spider venom in "Tower of Ashes", a short story by the same author.  The real power are Dany and Bran themselves.  Dany is mentally stronger and successfully resisted the lure of the drug.  We will have to see if Bran can save himself or become an addict.

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Exactly.

For example at the Trident Barristan Selmy was wounded by arrow, spear and sword, and didn't died. I think that the SPEAR wound is way more serious, than the stab of the dagger. So Jon has a high chanses of surviving. Even though Melisandre supposedly saw Jon warging into Ghost, doesn't mean that Jon did it while his human body was dead. He could have switched to the wolf's body, to escape from pain. So his body may be alive, and getting medical treatment, and recovering. And until he will be fine, he will stay inside Ghost.

Ned recalls Barristan being near death but Robert orders the maesters to treat him and he lives. If Jon gets medical treatment, yes, he has a good chance of surviving. But who's going to do that? His attack was an inside job and apparently there was no one to stop it. Also, you are forgetting the scuffle with the giant that gets Jon outside in the first place. His attackers use it as a distraction. How is Jon going to get medical treatment in that mess? 

He doesn't feel the fourth knife because he's already getting cold, meaning he is losing consciousness. But he sees it coming. He wards of one attacks so he was stabbed three times. 

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12 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ned recalls Barristan being near death but Robert orders the maesters to treat him and he lives. If Jon gets medical treatment, yes, he has a good chance of surviving. But who's going to do that?

Val and or Morna, at least, and then as @The Weirwoods Eyes mentions above, maybe Clydas as well if needed. 

Quote

 

His attack was an inside job and apparently there was no one to stop it.

It was a surprise and very clumsy attack that has been planned since ASOS. 

And Jon mentions in ADWD that the free folk outnumber the Watch five to one. Since Jon is stepping in to position as their leader to follow, Marsh and friends are toast, and rather soon. 

Quote

Also, you are forgetting the scuffle with the giant that gets Jon outside in the first place.

Yup, that was Ser Patrek trying to steal Val, which every free folk and most Watch-men know is Jon’s already. 

Quote

His attackers use it as a distraction. How is Jon going to get medical treatment in that mess? 

See above. 

Quote

He doesn't feel the fourth knife because he's already getting cold, meaning he is losing consciousness. But he sees it coming. He wards of one attacks so he was stabbed three times. 

This is a different kind of cold he feels. 

I am still out and cannot respond in full, but there is a lot more to this mutiny than it seems. I will get back with more later when I can and I am sure other posters are happy to jump in in the meantime  ^_^

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53 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

He wards of one attacks so he was stabbed three times. 

He was stabbed only twice, in a post above there's quotes how exactly was he attacked. During second attack he was stabbed in the belly, during third between shoulder blades. But during first attack the dagger only grazed him. There's a difference between a stab and a graze, that's piercing or slashing, totally different kind of wounds - deep and thin and vertical going in, or shalow and horizontal on the surface.

53 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ned recalls Barristan being near death but Robert orders the maesters to treat him and he lives. If Jon gets medical treatment, yes, he has a good chance of surviving. But who's going to do that?

Melisandre, Clydas, woodswitch.

53 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

His attack was an inside job and apparently there was no one to stop it. Also, you are forgetting the scuffle with the giant that gets Jon outside in the first place. His attackers use it as a distraction. How is Jon going to get medical treatment in that mess? 

There were people there, running from all over. Crows, knights, wildlings. And I think that the giant will help Jon. Because Jon was always nice to him, talked with him, and fed him. So when Wun Wun will see what's happening, he will defend Jon from his attackers. And Leathers were also nearby, so he will explain to Wun Wun, that they want to help Jon, so he has to let them to him. Also prior that attack majority of people present in that Shield Hall were wildlings, their numbers were 5 to 1, wildlings to crows. So those wildlings will seize those crows, that are not on Jon's side. So they will be able to give to Jon medical help, fairly fast.

40 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It was a surprise and very clumsy attack that has been planned since ASOS. 

I was wondering, whether Bowen Marsh was crying, because he was sorry for killing/attacking Jon. Or because he was afraid that afterwards, other Brothers will kill him (Bowen), for treason against Lord Commander.

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To drink from the cups of fire and ice is to drink/eat the shade of the evening and the bloody weirwood paste.  Daenerys and Bran each have half of the puzzle, perhaps the answer to how they can survive the long night. At least that is what their handlers are trying to sell.  Pyat Pree and Bloodraven are trying to entrap our two heroes.   The warlocks are telling Daenerys to drink from the cups to get all the answers to her questions.  Remember, Daenerys is looking for an army to take back her kingdom from the dirty grip of the Usurpers and their dogs.  She's not asking for the mysteries of the universe and neither is Bran.  Bran just wants to walk.  So these hallucinogenic substances will give Daenerys the answers she needs, or so the warlocks claim.  But we have to remember, they want her addicted so they can entrap her within their spell.  I think Daenerys already has the answers and as of ADWD, she has everything she needs to take back her kingdom.  She has The Unsullied and her Dragons.  

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I was wondering, whether Bowen Marsh was crying, because he was sorry for killing/attacking Jon. Or because he was afraid that afterwards, other Brothers will kill him (Bowen), for treason against Lord Commander.

Bowen Marsh was crying because his mad lord commander put him in a situation where he has to commit an assassination in order to save the watch from that same lord commander.  Bowen Marsh abide by the laws of the watch but he now has to break a law and strike his commander because that commander lost his mind, broke watch laws, betrayed his oaths, and dragged the watch into a feud with House Bolton.  

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52 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Bowen Marsh was crying because his mad lord commander put him in a situation where he has to commit an assassination in order to save the watch from that same lord commander. 

Please explain how killing his lord commander is going to save the situation.

Marsh is narrow-minded, limited and overwhelmed by the situation, he cries tears of helplessness.

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