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Drink from the cup of ice....drink from the cup of fire...

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

I was wondering, whether Bowen Marsh was crying, because he was sorry for killing/attacking Jon. Or because he was afraid that afterwards, other Brothers will kill him (Bowen), for treason against Lord Commander.

I just have a second, but real quickly, it is possible that the more important clue to the scene is how the mutineers hold their hands up and claim “not me”. Makes you wonder, if they did the stabbin’ but it wasn’t them, then what kind of force was it that drove their hands? 

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Yes, plenty of people about who will drop what they are doing and rush to his aid. And there are several people capable of giving immediate medical assistance too. Not to mention that every damn Wildling there and most of the NW men will themselves have emergency wound care knowledge. These people are used to dealing with the results of skirmishes with one another, animal attack, hunting accidents etc. People often act as if anyone but a Maester is incapable of any form of medical care in these books. But that's quite obviously not true. 

 

Another aspect of this is Borroq.I doubt it is a coincidence that GRRM introduced a new skinchanger in ADWD, Jon desperately needs to begin getting to grips with his skinchanging abillity. He's spent 5 books in denial about it and thus has not learnt to control slipping his wolf. When Mellisandre see's Jon as man then wolf then man again we widely interpret that as him spending some time as Ghost. And that it will be because of the stabbing. But what if it is actually simply her seeing his training montage. In the run up to the stabbing Borroq is mentioned repeatedly. Jon thinks of him when he leaves Ghost in his chambers, he notes him in the shield hall, and GRRM even has Borroq speak up, he's drawing the readers attention to him. Whilst Jon is convalescing Borroq will be teaching him how to use his skill effectively. 

Jon seems to go into Ghost as he goes down from the third dagger, just as Robb seems to when he is killed. But when an awake person slips into their animal they loose consciousness in their human body so it stands to reason that once Jon passes out the attack would stop. There is no fourth knife.  This is not a frenzied attack driven by strong emotion. The men are reluctant assailants. They'd stop once they perceive his limp unconscious body as dead. Multiple people around them will step in and tend to him, and it is likely he'll be taken to his chambers once they realise he's not dead just unconscious. Where Borroq will follow and talk to him because he as a fellow skinchanger knows he is in Ghost. He can instruct Jon as to how to return to his body from Ghost as a conscious choice. Then while he recovers from his wounds Borroq gives Jon lessons much like Jojen did with Bran. 

 

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On 3/16/2018 at 8:32 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Daenerys is the last dragon, and she is accepting this while out upon her darkling plain at the end of ADWD.

Throughout her AGOT IX chapter, she has these this realization in her mind about waking the dragon. She is the last as Bran is the last, both taking the helm from the one before. This all comes from previous chapters where Viserys talks about he being the last dragon and how Dany doesn't want to "wake the dragon", but Vis thinks it is him, but Dany realizes it is her. These are her internal thoughts:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.
"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.
"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.
"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.
"… don't want to wake the dragon …"
The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.
"… don't want to wake the dragon …"
She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.
"… want to wake the dragon …"
Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.
"… wake the dragon …"
The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.
"… the dragon …"
And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

Sorry for the absence... the world keeps turning as I’m sure you are aware, but better late than never.

I clearly interpret this passage very differently...

I will agree that there is a parallel between the “last greenseer” and the “last dragon”... both I feel are used intentionally in misleading ways and both, I believe, have a deeper meaning. Also, Bran isn’t ever directly called the “last greenseer” and Dany isn’t ever called the “last dragon”. 

I interpret the “wake the dragon” dream you quoted above as Dany battling with her own past... “remember who you are”... the house with the red door... 

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness.

When the white winds blow (she’s running “back” toward the red door in her past, the winter winds behind her are in the future) the pack survives but the lone wolf dies... dragons don’t howl, wolves do.

She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

Home, the House with the red door, the description matches her description of Westeros from her first chapter almost exactly, and finally my favorite: arms to keep her warm (replaces “banners of their lords” from the description of Westeros in her first chapter), arms are a term for a family sigil... and in winter wolves keep each other warm.

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.
 
Dany sees Rhaegar, on a black mount as opposed to her Stark colored Silver, “the last dragon”, and another king who never was like Viserys and Rhaego who she saw earlier (I’ll come back to this). 
 
She lifts his visor, and sees herself. She sees herself in him... and herself wearing his arms. 
 
There must be one more = the last, the last.
Not the same as “the last dragon”...
 
The whispering of stars = remember who you are
 
Literally she needs to be reminded of who her parents are... Rhaegar and Lyanna
 
She’s thinking of Jorah’s voice in the dream, presumably referencing:
 
Now that it was over, it seemed like some strange dream that she had dreamed. "Ser Jorah, do you think … he'll be so angry when he gets back …" She shivered. "I woke the dragon, didn't I?"
Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

Yes, she can wake the dead and she is Rhaegar’s. 

We see this same theme play out again in the house of the undying... both with the room where we hear “song of ice and fire” for the only time in the series, Rhaegar looks at Dany and says there must be one more, and she recognizes him (unlike Aerys). Also, she is tempted off the path by a false Ser Willem Darry and the House with the red door. And then finally at the end:

Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . .

These are the same three “Kings who never were” from the “wake the dragon” dream. Daughter of death? And Rhaegar again described as dying for the woman he loved, just as he is in Dany’s first chapter (the first woman mentioned in her chapters at all). I believe Dany has an older brother, Jon, the rightful heir, so she fits right in as a queen who will never reign.

Ok, I seem to have gotten really sidetracked and I’ll need to come back for more on the “last dragon” and “last greenseer” presently... but let’s just say I don’t expect Bran will be filling in for Bloodraven as some heir to the greenseers.

Happy Friday!

 

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On 18.03.2018 at 4:18 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

 

I just have a second, but real quickly, it is possible that the more important clue to the scene is how the mutineers hold their hands up and claim “not me”. Makes you wonder, if they did the stabbin’ but it wasn’t them, then what kind of force was it that drove their hands? 

(For some reason, I didn't get notification about this post, so I saw it only now. Sorry for late reply ^_^)

That's an interesting idea. It could be that they were forced. Either by Melisandre, or by Queen Selyse.

In the beginning of his speech, Jon saw that Melisandre was also there. But after he announced that he will leave Castle Black, and will go to Winterfell, he noticed that Melisandre left. And Bowen Marsh, with all stewards, left shortly after that. So could be that, when they were on their way out, Melisandre used her magic, to get control over them. Then she sent them to attack Jon. Though not to kill him, only wound him, to make him stay at The Wall. Then she planned to save his life, and thus he not only remained where she needed him, but he also became indebted to her. This sort of scenario makes sense, if Melisandre thought, that she needs Jon to stay where he is. She asked R'hllor what to do, asked to show her Stannis, but flames only showed her Jon. So she thought that he is necessary, and thus she can't let him go. So she decided to use whatever means possible to prevent him from leaving, even harming him.

Or another scenario, is that Queen Selyse has heard from her people, from those two knights, that were present there during Jon's speech, what he's planning to do. And thus she ordered Bowen Marsh and his people, to get rid of Jon. Could be that she said to them, that what Jon is going to do is a treason, and thus she's expecting from Bowen, to deal with this problem on their own. Brothers themselves had to resolve Night's Watch's internal problem, or else she will deal with them, execute them all for Jon's treason. So Bowen had to chose, either to kill Jon, or else they all will be executed by Queen's knights.

Those two knights also left after Jon's announcement, same as Melisandre. So could be, that after Bowen left, he was intercepted by either of them, and ordered to attack or kill Jon.

On 18.03.2018 at 1:25 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, plenty of people about who will drop what they are doing and rush to his aid.

That's exactly what was happening:

"Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen’s men … “Form a line,” Jon Snow commanded them. “Keep them back. Everyone, but especially the queen’s men.” "

On 18.03.2018 at 1:25 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Then while he recovers from his wounds Borroq gives Jon lessons much like Jojen did with Bran. 

I don't think that Jon needs extensive knowledge about warging. Most likely this one time, when he will remain in Ghosts body, while his own body will be either dead, or not dead but recovering from painful wounds, is the only time, when Jon will need to warg into Ghost. What's the point of Jon frequently warging into Ghost? How can he use Ghost, if he will be in him? For spying after wights? That's not very convincing, because wights will come to The Wall soon enough, so there's no need to look for them.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:
The whispering of stars = remember who you are
 
Literally she needs to be reminded of who her parents are... Rhaegar and Lyanna

In that vision, Dany didn't heard, what the stars were saying. So don't mix together what was happening then, in AGOT, with what Dany experienced in her last chapter from ADWD.

She can't be child of Lyanna. Dany is blonde and has blue eyes. Silver-gold hair is just a shade of blond hair, and violet eyes is a shade of blue color. Nearly all of Lyanna's ancestors were northerners, and based on description of people from those families, from which were Lyanna's grandparents, great grandparents, and so on, for 300 years up to King Torrhen, among Lyanna's ancestors were only people with brown or red hair, and brown or grey eyes. Thus it's impossible for Lyanna's child to have Targaryen coloring.

Situation with Elia's blond and blue-eyed son Aegon, is different. Amongst Elia's ancestors, not that long ago, were two Valyrians - Daenerys Targaryen, wife of Maron Martell, and Drazenko Rogare, husband of Aliandra Martell.

So Rhaegar's child from Elia had blond hair and blue eyes, but Rhaegar's child with Lyanna can't have those features.

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12 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's exactly what was happening:

"Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen’s men … “Form a line,” Jon Snow commanded them. “Keep them back. Everyone, but especially the queen’s men.” "

On 18/03/2018 at 11:25 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Then while he recovers from his wounds Borroq gives Jon lessons much like Jojen did with Bran. 

I don't think that Jon needs extensive knowledge about warging. Most likely this one time, when he will remain in Ghosts body, while his own body will be either dead, or not dead but recovering from painful wounds, is the only time, when Jon will need to warg into Ghost. What's the point of Jon frequently warging into Ghost? How can he use Ghost, if he will be in him? For spying after wights? That's not very convincing, because wights will come to The Wall soon enough, so there's no need to look for them.

Yes, they're already coming to his aid. 

Jon needs to get to grips with controlling his warg abillity. Or else what is the point of him even having it? If he never uses it it becomes somewhat useless as a story aid.  He will learn how to control it, and he will embrace it. That much is obvious because prior to this point in the story he has rejected it and felt shame in it. He needs to learn to be proud of who and what he is. His story arc is all wrapped up in identity. From being a bastard to being a warg. 

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On 3/23/2018 at 6:45 PM, Megorova said:

In that vision, Dany didn't heard, what the stars were saying. So don't mix together what was happening then, in AGOT, with what Dany experienced in her last chapter from ADWD.

Stars are an important theme in the series, which is no surprise given the importance of the theme to Dante/Frost, from whom the series gets it’s name. The Divine comedy ends with him emerging beneath the stars... and several times at important moments in the series we see references to the stars or their absence. 

However, with Dany and Quaith there is also the added connection of Quaiths mask of starlight at the end of Dance. 

"Quaithe?" Dany called. "Where are you, Quaithe?"
Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight
"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"
 
The stars literally whisper the phrase...
 
Starlight and seafoam, Dany thought, a wisp of silk that leaves my left breast bare for Daario's delight. Oh, and flowers for my hair. When first they met, the captain brought her flowers every day, all the way from Yunkai to Meereen. "Bring the grey linen gown with the pearls on the bodice. Oh, and my white lion's pelt." She always felt safer wrapped in Drogo's lionskin.

Starlight... aaaaand she’s dressing in Stark colors with flowers in her hair.

 

Quote

She can't be child of Lyanna. Dany is blonde and has blue eyes. Silver-gold hair is just a shade of blond hair, and violet eyes is a shade of blue color. Nearly all of Lyanna's ancestors were northerners, and based on description of people from those families, from which were Lyanna's grandparents, great grandparents, and so on, for 300 years up to King Torrhen, among Lyanna's ancestors were only people with brown or red hair, and brown or grey eyes. Thus it's impossible for Lyanna's child to have Targaryen coloring.

I don’t think this is true... first of all, Targaryen coloring is NOT just blonde and blue eyes... it’s fantastical. Purple eyes and silver/gold hair, nor does it follow real world biological inheritance. 

Bloodraven is a great example of a Firstmen/Vlayrian child with fantastical coloring...

Not to mention that we see in the Stark children how the Stark coloring isn’t as dominant in the Stark/Tully combo as we see the Baratheon coloring is for Baratheon/Lannisters (Baratheons are actually descended from a natural line of the Targaryens) and of course Elia and Lyanna actually had similar coloring.

But the point here is that the Targs don’t follow the normal biology rules...

Quote

Situation with Elia's blond and blue-eyed son Aegon, is different. Amongst Elia's ancestors, not that long ago, were two Valyrians - Daenerys Targaryen, wife of Maron Martell, and Drazenko Rogare, husband of Aliandra Martell.

So are you trying to argue that characters need Targaryens on both sides to get the coloring? I don’t think that will get very far... 

Quote

So Rhaegar's child from Elia had blond hair and blue eyes, but Rhaegar's child with Lyanna can't have those features.

This is false... or rather I don’t think this assumption plays out in the series we’ve read so far. It’s not even clear that baby Aegon has/had Targaryen features.

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On 3/23/2018 at 4:32 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sorry for the absence... the world keeps turning as I’m sure you are aware, but better late than never.

I clearly interpret this passage very differently...

I will agree that there is a parallel between the “last greenseer” and the “last dragon”... both I feel are used intentionally in misleading ways and both, I believe, have a deeper meaning. Also, Bran isn’t ever directly called the “last greenseer” and Dany isn’t ever called the “last dragon”. 

I interpret the “wake the dragon” dream you quoted above as Dany battling with her own past... “remember who you are”... the house with the red door... 

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness.

When the white winds blow (she’s running “back” toward the red door in her past, the winter winds behind her are in the future) the pack survives but the lone wolf dies... dragons don’t howl, wolves do.

She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

Home, the House with the red door, the description matches her description of Westeros from her first chapter almost exactly, and finally my favorite: arms to keep her warm (replaces “banners of their lords” from the description of Westeros in her first chapter), arms are a term for a family sigil... and in winter wolves keep each other warm.

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.
 
Dany sees Rhaegar, on a black mount as opposed to her Stark colored Silver, “the last dragon”, and another king who never was like Viserys and Rhaego who she saw earlier (I’ll come back to this). 
 
She lifts his visor, and sees herself. She sees herself in him... and herself wearing his arms. 
 
There must be one more = the last, the last.
Not the same as “the last dragon”...
 
The whispering of stars = remember who you are
 
Literally she needs to be reminded of who her parents are... Rhaegar and Lyanna
 
She’s thinking of Jorah’s voice in the dream, presumably referencing:
 
Now that it was over, it seemed like some strange dream that she had dreamed. "Ser Jorah, do you think … he'll be so angry when he gets back …" She shivered. "I woke the dragon, didn't I?"
Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

Yes, she can wake the dead and she is Rhaegar’s. 

We see this same theme play out again in the house of the undying... both with the room where we hear “song of ice and fire” for the only time in the series, Rhaegar looks at Dany and says there must be one more, and she recognizes him (unlike Aerys). Also, she is tempted off the path by a false Ser Willem Darry and the House with the red door. And then finally at the end:

Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . .

These are the same three “Kings who never were” from the “wake the dragon” dream. Daughter of death? And Rhaegar again described as dying for the woman he loved, just as he is in Dany’s first chapter (the first woman mentioned in her chapters at all). I believe Dany has an older brother, Jon, the rightful heir, so she fits right in as a queen who will never reign.

Ok, I seem to have gotten really sidetracked and I’ll need to come back for more on the “last dragon” and “last greenseer” presently... but let’s just say I don’t expect Bran will be filling in for Bloodraven as some heir to the greenseers.

Happy Friday!

 

Hey there. For some reason I missed this response and yes not just now saw it as I was browsing through. Give me a bit to get to my computer. 

Happy Monday! 

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I see this as a possible allusion to the 23rd psalm.  Daenerys Targaryen's cup will overflow with the blessings  of the Gods.  Bountiful.  All of the main characters are blessed in their own way: the Starks with their wargs skills, born into a noble family; Tyrion, son of the wealthiest man with an unlimited allowance; Daenerys is blessed with beauty, brains, superpowers, nobility.  Daenerys has been blessed by fire and given the gift of dragons.  The prophecy seems to say she will also receive blessings from ice and given something precious, maybe the gift of warging.

On 6/26/2016 at 1:25 AM, Hos the Hostage said:

At the HotU, Dany drank shade of evening that enabled her too see the visions.

Black and Blue. The effects experienced by Dany upon drinking this are italicized.

The Warlocks wanted to steal Dany's dragons (it is implied).

In ADWD, Bran drinking the weirwood paste is remarkable similar, and seems to have opposing elements. Instead of black barks and blue leaves, we have white barks and red leaves.

Bran and Dany's reactions, before and after eating the magical substances, ring similar. Initially the drinks taste foul, but later they taste like everything(every good thing in Bran's case) they ever tasted. Dany and Bran had grown up in totally different surroundings, but both of them have tasted honey.

When Dany drank the Shade of Evening, she felt fire-tendrils coiling around her heart. It was a like a tree of fire was growing inside her. But in Bran's case, the paste was used to wed him to the trees. He became part of the weirwood network. Did Bran drink from the cup of ice? There is this quote - cold preserves, fire consumes. The Shade of Evening appears to have a negative effect on the health of individuals who take it regularly, and Bloodraven is 'preserved' (in a better state than the warlocks, at least).

We have two magical drinks, one taken by a Stark  and another by a Targaryen, both rendering the the drinker the ability to see through past, present and future. Are they the cups of Ice and Fire respectively? I don't know. The 'cups' may not even be actual cups, but something metaphorical.

While on the topic of magical things that causes the consumer to remember their favorite things, there is one more example, this one to do with sense of smell rather than taste.

One thing that connects all three places is death.

 

On 3/11/2018 at 10:24 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

One interpretation that I like follows:

Cup of Fire = Shade of the Evening

Cup of Ice = Weirwood Paste

Dany was asking for information and they seem to be saying this is what she must do in order to learn the truth.  

 

On 3/11/2018 at 3:37 PM, Allardyce said:

 

Yes, to drink from the Cup of Knowledge is to learn the mysteries.  

Knowledge is a blessing.  The cups of fire and ice represent blessings.

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19 minutes ago, Sydney Mae said:

Knowledge is a blessing.  The cups of fire and ice represent blessings.

 Biblically, knowledge was not a blessing...

Man ate of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) against the express order of god.

The original sin. The Fall

Some bullshit if you ask me, but it is what it is...

As a result, Man was cast out of Eden and denied the fruit of the tree of life as a result.

The shared imagery of these trees, the world tree from pagan mythology, and the Weirwoods/Undying Shade of evening trees definitely abounds.

 

However, this does raise an interesting detail... 

Nowhere have we seen the fruit of a Weirwood or a Shade of the Evening tree... supposedly Bran is fed a paste of Weirwood seeds, and we don’t know what shade of the evening is... but let’s just leave this as suspicious given the race of “children of the forest” running about... are the Children the seeds of the Weirwood?

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We will know what it means when GM decides to reveal.  Or not.  What I know is this, the people who have so far put all their stock into prophecies have truly messed up.  Let's review.

Mirri Maz Duur murdered an innocent child because she believed she was preventing the birth of a dangerous Dothraki khal.  She killed an innocent and got punished for it by getting burned at the stake.  

Cersei Lannister tried to murder her tiny brother because she believed he will be the cause of her death.  That said brother got all bitter and killed their dad.  

Jon was overwhelmed with emotions when he could't get the vision of the grey girl on the dying horse out of his mind.  He broke NW laws and sent a wildling criminal to bring his sister back to him.  His own brothers killed him to protect the watch.

Egg believed the dragons will return if only he could hatch the remaining dragon eggs and he ends up almost destroying his whole family.

Dany up to this point has had the right attitude with regards to propechies.  In my opinion.  She is keenly aware of all that Qaithe warned her about and yet she didn't throw the Sun's Son into a dungeon and had him tortured because the prophecy says he's dangerous.  She will make the right decisions with regards to the prophecies.

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21 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

We will know what it means when GM decides to reveal.  Or not.  What I know is this, the people who have so far put all their stock into prophecies have truly messed up.  Let's review.

Mirri Maz Duur murdered an innocent child because she believed she was preventing the birth of a dangerous Dothraki khal.  She killed an innocent and got punished for it by getting burned at the stake.  

Cersei Lannister tried to murder her tiny brother because she believed he will be the cause of her death.  That said brother got all bitter and killed their dad.  

Jon was overwhelmed with emotions when he could't get the vision of the grey girl on the dying horse out of his mind.  He broke NW laws and sent a wildling criminal to bring his sister back to him.  His own brothers killed him to protect the watch.

Egg believed the dragons will return if only he could hatch the remaining dragon eggs and he ends up almost destroying his whole family.

Dany up to this point has had the right attitude with regards to propechies.  In my opinion.  She is keenly aware of all that Qaithe warned her about and yet she didn't throw the Sun's Son into a dungeon and had him tortured because the prophecy says he's dangerous.  She will make the right decisions with regards to the prophecies.

Just to play devils advocate (plenty of misinterpreted prophesies abound) but Stannis also saves the Wall and Nights Watch from the Wildlings based on Mel’s visions... so not all bad...

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Just to play devils advocate (plenty of misinterpreted prophesies abound) but Stannis also saves the Wall and Nights Watch from the Wildlings based on Mel’s visions... so not all bad...

I agree but perhaps we should wait and see what happens since that plotline is still in play.  Mance Rayder could have died in that battle and that may have been for the betterment of most people.

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2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This is false... or rather I don’t think this assumption plays out in the series we’ve read so far. It’s not even clear that baby Aegon has/had Targaryen features.

He did. There is GRRM's post in Citadel about looks of Rhaenys and Aegon. He said that Rhaenys had Martells looks, and Aegon looked more like Targaryens.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So are you trying to argue that characters need Targaryens on both sides to get the coloring? I don’t think that will get very far... 

That will get as far as 300+ years.

I used Punett's Square, to see whether real life genetic inheritance is relevant for ASOIAF world, and looks of all characters and their ancestors confirmed that it is.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149720-genetic-coding-100-real-world-or-fantasy-for-literature/&do=findComment&comment=8090980

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149720-genetic-coding-100-real-world-or-fantasy-for-literature/&do=findComment&comment=8091019

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149720-genetic-coding-100-real-world-or-fantasy-for-literature/&do=findComment&comment=8091280

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Bloodraven is a great example of a Firstmen/Vlayrian child with fantastical coloring...

Bloodraven is an albino, he has no coloring. Some of his genes, blocked production of melanin, and thus whatever coloring he inherited from his ancestors, isn't visible.

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Not to mention that we see in the Stark children how the Stark coloring isn’t as dominant in the Stark/Tully combo as we see the Baratheon coloring is for Baratheon/Lannisters (Baratheons are actually descended from a natural line of the Targaryens) and of course Elia and Lyanna actually had similar coloring.

In The North and Riverlands, 10% of population has blond hair, 30% red, and 60% dark (brown or black). Same percentage beyong The Wall, and in Stormlands.

Among Elia's ancestors there were light-haired and "blue"-eyed Valyrians, such as Drazenko Rogare, and Daenerys Targaryen (sister of Daeron I). And there are more light-haired people in Dorne, than in The North. Among Lyanna's ancestors there were only dark-haired or red-haired people, thus she didn't had the kind of melanin, that makes hair color light/blond/silver/gold.

Lyanna's ancestors starting from King in The North Torrhen Stark, were Starks, Lysa and Marna Locke, Melantha Blackwood, Lorra Royce, Arya Flint, Alys Karstark, Gillianne Glover. Lockes, Flints and Glovers were First Men kings, prior North was united by Starks. Karstarks are branch of House Stark. Royces were First Men of The Vale. Robett Glover and Alys Karstark have brown hair. Based on coloring of Melissa and Betha Blackwood, genetic trait of Blackwood family is brown hair and dark eyes. GRRM said that he based First Men on celts, and celts were dark-eyed and dark-haired, with long skulls.

30% of population in The North are red-heads. Tullys' genetic trait is auburn/red hair. Thus possibility for Ned and Cat's children to be red-heads was 50-80%.

And Baratheons are as much descendants of First Men Durrandons, and other local First Men houses, as they are descendants of Targaryens. First Baratheon - Orys, bastard half-brother of Aegon Targaryen, had dark hair and dark eyes, which he inherited from his mother. Then he married with Argella Durrandon, Princess of First Men Storm King, most likely she had dark hair and dark eyes. Then Orys' grandson Robar Baratheon married with Alyssa Velaryon, widow of Aenys I Targaryen, and mother of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne Targaryen. Robar and Alyssa had only one child - daughter Jocelyn Baratheon. But those Targaryen genes didn't remained in Baratheon's genetic pool, because Jocelyn married back into Targaryen family, her husband was Aemon Targaryen. And since then and until Rhaelle Targaryen, wife of Robert's granfather Ormund, Baratheons never again intermarried with Targaryens. Robert, Stannis, Renly, and their children had dark coloring because Baratheons are carriers of two alleles of brown hair color, thus in any combination with mother of any coloring, the children could be only dark-haired.

Elia and Lyanna had similar coloring, but different alleles. Lyanna was carrier of only brown hair alleles BB, while Elia was carrier of two kinds - Bb, dark and light hair together, and thus her children could be either brown-haired or blond. But Lyanna's children could be only dark-haired.

Though let's not discuss genetics in this thread.

4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Stars are an important theme in the series

4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Starlight and seafoam, Dany thought

^_^ I'll add this one to my theory that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. Now I have 9 clues, that support my theory.

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39 minutes ago, Megorova said:

He did. There is GRRM's post in Citadel about looks of Rhaenys and Aegon. He said that Rhaenys had Martells looks, and Aegon looked more like Targaryens.

But to know the hair/eye color of a child you have to let them grow up a little bit, plenty of blonde haired blue eyed babies grow up to have brown hair and eyes... so unless you take that as confirmation from GRRM that Aegon survived... and that’s already using sources outside the text (which I’m loath to do)... again I stand by not being able to know.

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Elia and Lyanna had similar coloring, but different alleles. Lyanna was carrier of only brown hair alleles BB, while Elia was carrier of two kinds - Bb, dark and light hair together, and thus her children could be either brown-haired or blond. But Lyanna's children could be only dark-haired.

You can’t possibly know this, we barely know who Lyanna’s mom was, let alone her mom’s mom’s mom. And while we are pretty sure there are no Targ-Stark intermarriages in the past. The same can’t be said for Daynes, or Arryns, or other families of a lighter complexion.

So we can’t possibly know what recessive qualities Lyanna possessed... and we can’t know that the Targaryen fantastical coloring imitates real world inheritance.

Which, of course, is far more complicated than the classic blue+blue=blue and blue+brown=brown eye color logic we tend to simplify it into.

But even so, Targaryens seem to be prone to all sorts of streaks of hair color, different colored eyes, an albino like Bloodraven (if he is a true albino) etc. They are anything but normal.

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Though let's not discuss genetics in this thread.

Cheers! Haha

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^_^ I'll add this one to my theory that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar. Now I have 9 clues, that support my theory.

Fair enough! 

And I don’t hate the idea in general... except that it would kinda be bull if Quaith, who’s basically only characteristic we hear about is her watery eyes behind the mask, ends up having two different colored eyes, but oh that was just never mentioned. Same goes for haunting purple eyes for that matter.

 

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And I don’t hate the idea in general... except that it would kinda be bull if Quaith, who’s basically only characteristic we hear about is her watery eyes behind the mask, ends up having two different colored eyes, but oh that was just never mentioned. Same goes for haunting purple eyes for that matter.

That's the thing - color of her eyes was never revealed. Though if she's wearing a mask, then her eyes may be shadowed, and thus color of her blue and green eyes, in shade of her mask, just looks dark and indistinguishable beyond that. 

Though maybe Dany did saw her without mask, and thus saw her eyes and also her hair color. My theory is that when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Quaithe/Shiera Seastar helped her to deliver the baby. This scenes are from that chapter:

"the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky"

"Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. "

"After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars."

If Dany saw "stars" smiling to her, and those smiling and whispering stars is Quaithe, then Dany saw her without mask. And Quaithe had silver-gold hair, that partially became platinum white, because even though Shiera, same as her mother Serenei of Lys, is using blood magic to stay young, she still aged a bit, because now she's 116-122 years old, even a bit older than her brother/ex-lover Bloodraven. And her eyes are - blue/amethyst, green/jade, crystals of tourmaline are often bi-colored, and opals are also mixed colors of blue and green.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourmaline#Color

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amethyst#Hue_and_tone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal#/media/File:Opal-53714.jpg

So could be, that we already KNOW color of Quaithe's eyes, and how she looks, though we don't know, that we know it ^_^

This was in one of Dany's chapters, prior Daario's return to Meereen:

"What do you want of me, Quaithe?”

Moonlight shone in the woman’s eyes. “To show you the way.”"

Also from that scene, where you mentioned Dany's clothes, later in chapter there was this moment:

"“Your captain lives to serve his cruel queen.”

“Cruel?”

Moonlight glimmered in his eyes."

A woman and a man, with moonlight in their eyes. Both scenes happened in the same place, in a garden above Dany's pyramide. And for that man Dany wore starlight and seafoam. Moonlight is a link between Daario and Quaithe, and starlight + seafoam could be a reference to Shiera Seastar, her name means the Star of the Sea.

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On 3/23/2018 at 4:32 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sorry for the absence... the world keeps turning as I’m sure you are aware, but better late than never.

Very true as that is also my current predicament :wacko:

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I clearly interpret this passage very differently...

I will agree that there is a parallel between the “last greenseer” and the “last dragon”... both I feel are used intentionally in misleading ways and both, I believe, have a deeper meaning. Also, Bran isn’t ever directly called the “last greenseer” and Dany isn’t ever called the “last dragon”. 

While I was in the car today, I was taking in the sweet, sweet sounds of :bowdown: ROY DOTRICE while listening to ADWD when I got to Bran's first ADWD chapter. Too much to quote and paste here, but I was a little surprised at how much of it contrasts the ACOK Dany 4 chapter with the House of the Undying. One thing that stuck out was what we had touched on earlier with the directions thing (stay to the right). Well, in this Bran chapter we also have the guide giving this similar command, except in this case the guide, Coldhands, gives this direction while he is off killing others who are "hunting" Bran and co. And also we have more rivers/water talk again, and I guess this also makes me think that IF Bran were to leave the cave, then it will be by the stream and not the red herring door three leagues up.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

"He said he'd go and deal with them," said Bran.
"He said, aye. He said he would take us to this three-eyed crow too. That river we crossed this morning is the same one we crossed four days ago, I swear. We're going in circles."
"Rivers turn and twist," Bran said uncertainly, "and where there's lakes and hills, you need to go around."
 
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I interpret the “wake the dragon” dream you quoted above as Dany battling with her own past... “remember who you are”... the house with the red door... 

I'm not so sure this house with the red door exists as Dany think she remembers it. I don't know what it is yet, but I think wherever her dragons are is where her "home" is, and she will come to realize this in the next book while with the Dosh Khaleen. I do have some grounds for this speculation of mine. The first is Quentyn as he plays a sort of suicidal "come in to my castle" game, and the other is from (yes :drunk:) another GRRM story where the very Dany/Targaryen "mother" lives within her behemoth flight ship that is described as three eggs. Another very fire >< ice story.

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

"You were told your scheme was madness, have you forgotten?" said Pretty Meris. "Do what you came to do."
The dragons, Prince Quentyn thought. Yes. We came for the dragons. He felt as though he might be sick. What am I doing here? Father, why? Four men dead in as many heartbeats, and for what? "Fire and blood," he whispered, "blood and fire." The blood was pooling at his feet, soaking into the brick floor. The fire was beyond those doors. "The chains … we have no key …"
Arch said, "I have the key." He swung his warhammer hard and fast. Sparks flew when the hammmerhead struck the lock. And then again, again, again. On his fifth swing the lock shattered, and the chains fell away in a rattling clatter so loud Quentyn was certain half the pyramid must have heard them. "Bring the cart." The dragons would be more docile once fed. Let them gorge themselves on charred mutton.
 
From another story (keeping it vague to avoid too many spoilers if anyone cares to read it later)
(first description of the ship) It loomed ahead, three small eggs side-by-side, two larger spheres beneath and at right angles,...
 
"My mother did not worry about how often she and her crews returned home. Her ships were her home. She seldom visited the same world twice if she could avoid it."
 
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Ok, I seem to have gotten really sidetracked and I’ll need to come back for more on the “last dragon” and “last greenseer” presently... but let’s just say I don’t expect Bran will be filling in for Bloodraven as some heir to the greenseers.

 


Sidetracking happens, but we still kept one foot on course.

We definitely have two differing ideas of Daenerys and her background, which is totally fine, but makes it tough when discussing a topic like this as so much is intertwined that it cannot separate without the story falling apart. I really do not see Dany as Jon's twin sister, or regular younger sister, but IF they are, then Dany is still choosing the cup of fire, as Bran+Jon chose the cup of ice. Opposite sides of the coin.

Well, meet me at the pub when TWOW comes out and the one who is furthest from the book story has to buy the next round :cheers:

 

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On 3/23/2018 at 3:45 PM, Megorova said:

She can't be child of Lyanna. Dany is blonde and has blue eyes. Silver-gold hair is just a shade of blond hair, and violet eyes is a shade of blue color. Nearly all of Lyanna's ancestors were northerners, and based on description of people from those families, from which were Lyanna's grandparents, great grandparents, and so on, for 300 years up to King Torrhen, among Lyanna's ancestors were only people with brown or red hair, and brown or grey eyes. Thus it's impossible for Lyanna's child to have Targaryen coloring.

Lyanna's brother, Benjen Stark, has blue-grey eyes.

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10 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Lyanna's brother, Benjen Stark, has blue-grey eyes.

Blue-grey eyes are not the same as blue, it's the same grey color, as average grey eyes, but only with smaller amount of melanin.

Babies are born with blue eyes, and often with blond hair. But that isn't their natural colors, it's just that they are not yet colored by melanin. Not entirely colored, but also not totally discolored like albinos. When they will become older, and their body will be producing more melanin, then they will be colored, based on what sort of alleles/melanin did they got from their parents. When people get old, their hair becomes white/grey, and often their eyes become blue. Both things happen because they are losing melanin (coloring pigment).

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-my-grandpas-eyes-turning-blue

So all eyes without pigment in them seems to be blue. So blue-grey eyes, is just grey eyes with just a bit of "grey" melanin, that give eyes light grey coloring, and thus a bit of original color - no-color=blue - is also visible.

Lyanna/Jon had/has grey eyes, so dark, that sometimes they seems to be black. Lyanna and Jon has/had a lot of grey-coloring pigment in their irises, while Benjen Stark (and Alys Karstark, and Boltons that have very pale grey eyes) had only a bit of grey-coloring pigment in his eyes.

 

Actually all eyes are blue-brown - uncolored/blue with certain amount of coloring brown pigment in them in one pair of alleles, and green or not-green pigment in the other pair of alleles.

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/02/genetics-of-eye-color.html

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Blue-grey eyes are not the same as blue, it's the same grey color, as average grey eyes, but only with smaller amount of melanin.

Babies are born with blue eyes, and often with blond hair. But that isn't their natural colors, it's just that they are not yet colored by melanin. Not entirely colored, but also not totally discolored like albinos. When they will become older, and their body will be producing more melanin, then they will be colored, based on what sort of alleles/melanin did they got from their parents. When people get old, their hair becomes white/grey, and often their eyes become blue. Both things happen because they are losing melanin (coloring pigment).

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-my-grandpas-eyes-turning-blue

So all eyes without pigment in them seems to be blue. So blue-grey eyes, is just grey eyes with just a bit of "grey" melanin, that give eyes light grey coloring, and thus a bit of original color - no-color=blue - is also visible.

Lyanna/Jon had/has grey eyes, so dark, that sometimes they seems to be black. Lyanna and Jon has/had a lot of grey-coloring pigment in their irises, while Benjen Stark (and Alys Karstark, and Boltons that have very pale grey eyes) had only a bit of grey-coloring pigment in his eyes.

 

Actually all eyes are blue-brown - uncolored/blue with certain amount of coloring brown pigment in them in one pair of alleles, and green or not-green pigment in the other pair of alleles.

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/02/genetics-of-eye-color.html

The problem is I don’t find any of this relevant to having purple eyes, nor do we have enough information about the Stark heritage or the pattern of Targaryen feature inheritance to make these conclusions... this isn’t the same as Dark haired Baratheon always supplanting the Blonde Lannister hair.

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14 hours ago, Megorova said:

Blue-grey eyes are not the same as blue, it's the same grey color, as average grey eyes, but only with smaller amount of melanin.

Blue-grey or "livid" looks more blue to me than grey.  

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