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18 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

So how does Arya and Varys travel the entire realms of Westeros and Essos in the blink of an eye and Jaime makes it back to KL but Brienne and Pod can't make it to Winterfell?  

A co-worker and I had the same discussion this morning. 

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41 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:
1 hour ago, IceSyckel said:

Well, she also fed a dude his family, so ... there's that ;)  

Granted, she used a pie instead of chili, so there is a distinction in methodology to be sure.

So how does Arya and Varys travel the entire realms of Westeros and Essos in the blink of an eye and Jaime makes it back to KL but Brienne and Pod can't make it to Winterfell?  

Now that's what I call a non-sequitur, lol.  I'm stretching to figure our why you quoted my post to ask this question?

I agree, though, that the travel is nuts.  Yes, you're supposed to "suspend disbelief" and "TV travel happens off-screen," but this was too much too fast - especially Varys.  It's hard when a man is in mid-Essos at one scene and southern-Westeros the next...  That would be like Luke being on Dagobah in one scene and then, two scenes later, fighting Vader on the Death Star in front of the Emperor - it just leaves too much to off-scene occurrence.

Edited by IceSyckel
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I was very sorry to lose favorite character, Maergery, the smartest and most grown-up of them all, with maybe the exception of her grandmother.  I really hoped she'd have been able to wiggle out of this last trap.  Damn!  She would have made an excellent queen, whether alone or as a king's queen.

All of which is moot though, now that Dany's coming.

Now for one more thing in response to the finale, about which I'm surely to be wrong since I've been wrong in my guesses so often: Maybe it's Robert who was the father of Jon Snow, not Rhaegar?  That way, if there is a union between Dany and John, all the ruling lines are represented: Targaryen, Stark and Baratheon, and everybody's happy.

Bran's out of the running since he's the 3ER.

O -- and Arya can be head of the Kings Guard.  Tryion of course Hand. That is if there's anything left to guard and finance of what used to be the 7 kingdoms after the white walkers have their way.  

Edited by Zorral
winter
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4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Maybe it's Robert who was the father of Jon Snow, not Rhaegar?  

That's unlikely: Lyanna warned Ned of Robert's reaction.  If it was Robert's child, then Lyanna would have no cause to fear Robert's reaction.

 

The only question in my mind is whether Jon is still a bastard or whether Lyanna and Rhaegar had secretly wed (9ish months before Ned rescued her)?  

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7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Are we sure we understand exactly what she meant by that?  We have no idea what she said to Ned.  But he did understand what she meant.

 

Certainly it is possible that the showrunners are torturing us with a clever scheme to make us THINK that R+L=J when in reality something else was said.  However, at this point, that would anger fans of the books and the show alike for no appreciable reason.

It's one thing to cleverly trick your audience into believing a false solution to a mystery when you have left breadcrumbs for the real explanation, but since they clearly led us to believe R+L=J without offering (in the show) clear clues for a plausible alternative, it would just be poor storytelling on their part.  It would be jerking us around just to jerk us around.  At that point, they might as well say "The Butler Did It" and end the series.

 

Besides: what else would Lyanna make Ned promise to keep secret for fear of Robert's reaction?  Possibly a secret marriage or an affair alone would explain it, but if that secret marriage/affair didn't result in Jon's birth, then why all the blood and nurses?  I'm sure Ser Arthur Dayne didn't let harm befall his prisoner.

Edited by IceSyckel
Added thought.
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Well, I have been wrong before, that's for sure! :cheers:

The only reason I started thinking this is because Robert was supposedly obsessed with Lyanna, and because we don't know what she said to Ned.  And why don't we know if its what we suspected all along?

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

...why don't we know if its what we suspected all along?

 

 

 

That is a good point.  The fact that any part of the conversation between Lyanna and Ned was inaudible to the audience does clearly signify a desire on the part of the showrunners to screw with the audience, either because they're baiting us to falsely believe R+L=J or possibly because they want to keep lingering some sense of mystery to the R+L=J theory even if it is ultimately proven correct.  Either way, I think it's fairly malicious on their part (since they haven't given reasonable evidence for an alternative explanation).  

TL'DR: either R+L=J at this point OR there is a really lame-arse alternative explanation for why Lyanna was bleeding in that tower under the watch of members of the King's Guard.  Think about it: is there another explanation that isn't overly convoluted and silly?

Edited by IceSyckel
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Actually, I would dispute that the series has been convoluted to date, though any fantasy series might be described as "silly" depending on the perspective of the audience member in question.  It's not like flame-breathing dragons are overly serious subject matter, and some of the plots in ASOIAF are similar to bad soap opera plots (though executed far better imho - e.g., incest, adultery, etc.).

However, where some see convoluted, I see intricate.  If something is sufficiently foreshadowed, then it is intricate (in my opinion); else, it is just convoluted.  That said, I am sure opinions would vary.

Edited by IceSyckel
Clarification
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59 minutes ago, IceSyckel said:

Now that's what I call a non-sequitur, lol.  I'm stretching to figure our why you quoted my post to ask this question?

I agree, though, that the travel is nuts.  Yes, you're supposed to "suspend disbelief" and "TV travel happens off-screen," but this was too much too fast - especially Varys.  It's hard when a man is in mid-Essos at one scene and southern-Westeros the next...  That would be like Luke being on Dagobah in one scene and then, two scenes later, fighting Vader on the Death Star in front of the Emperor - it just leaves too much to off-scene occurrence.

Eh it was about Arya so I played 6 degrees.

 

Luke and Vader had spaceships too with light speed capability, does Varys have a portkey?

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14 minutes ago, IceSyckel said:

However, where some see convoluted, I see intricate.  If something is sufficiently foreshadowed, then it is intricate (in my opinion); else, it is just convoluted.  That said, I am sure opinions would vary.

There's a huge difference between intricate and convoluted. If you can't see the difference, that is a matter of your ability or lackthereof to appreciate subtlety.  

Cinematically speaking, examples of convoluted include Chris Nolan's stupid deam inside a dream movie, and Chris Nolan's third batman. Examples of intricate movies include Aronofsy's The Fountain, and Pulp Fiction. 

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Just now, Grizzly Mormont said:

so what the hell was margery's plan? to just trust in faith? why did we have to sit through all that time in that weird room with HS. 

My question would be why on earth did they force everyone in attendance to stay.  Not that it really mattered as the fallout area was huge, but they could have done a "cliffhanger" as to who made it out of the kill zone.

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4 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

There's a huge difference between intricate and convoluted. If you can't see the difference, that is a matter of your ability or lackthereof to appreciate subtlety.  

Cinematically speaking, examples of convoluted include Chris Nolan's stupid deam inside a dream movie, and Chris Nolan's third batman. Examples of intricate movies include Aronofsy's The Fountain, and Pulp Fiction. 

As I said, opinions can vary, but you're talking semantics at any rate.  The point we're discussing is whether it would be convoluted and/or intricate for the showrunners to give us such clear evidence of R+L=J in this finale and then take it away next season with some sudden revelation or development not foreshadowed in previous episodes.  What is your thought on this?

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There's been discussion on why Cersie didn't shed a tear or seem to mourn Tommen.  I suggest that it was in fulfillment of Maggie the Frog's prophecy "  And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you. "  Her tears from Joffery and Marcella death have "drowned" her and she has no more to shed.  

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Just now, Grizzly Mormont said:

Buy why spend all the previous episodes insinuating that Margery was scheming, and had things under control, when in the end she had no plan, no scheme, she just wanted to show off her incredible artistic skills to her grandmother 

I agree with you here, and this is the flipside of my R+L=J concerns.  Instead of a lack of foreshadowing for a major event contrary to the gravamen of the evidence, Margery's fate actually represents a lot of foreshadowing that never developed into anything significant.  

Example: the flower drawing she gave her grandmother, as you referenced.  What did that accomplish?  I suppose it got the QoT to avoid the trial, which setup her trip to Dorne, but there were other, simpler and less time-consuming ways to arrive at the same end. I feel like the show wasted a lot of time on her character with foreshadowing events that never came to pass.

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