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2 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

Buy why spend all the previous episodes insinuating that Margery was scheming, and had things under control, when in the end she had no plan, no scheme, she just wanted to show off her incredible artistic skills to her grandmother 

They've played cat and mouse since Margery's arrival to KL.  Cersie one ups or wins , then Margery one ups or wins.  Margery just allowed Cersie to get the last major one up.

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9 minutes ago, Naturally Low Highborn said:

My question would be why on earth did they force everyone in attendance to stay.  Not that it really mattered as the fallout area was huge, but they could have done a "cliffhanger" as to who made it out of the kill zone.

Your point is well taken, though I suspect even if they had run when Margery warned them, it would not have mattered.  I don't think those inside the sepct could have outrun the wildfyre in that limited span of time, as I would wager from the cloud over KL that many OUTSIDE the sept were killed as well.  Still, it would have been better to leave it to chance that at least some had escaped.

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3 minutes ago, IceSyckel said:

I agree with you here, and this is the flipside of my R+L=J concerns.  Instead of a lack of foreshadowing for a major event contrary to the gravamen of the evidence, Margery's fate actually represents a lot of foreshadowing that never developed into anything significant.  

Example: the flower drawing she gave her grandmother, as you referenced.  What did that accomplish?  I suppose it got the QoT to avoid the trial, which setup her trip to Dorne, but there were other, simpler and less time-consuming ways to arrive at the same end. I feel like the show wasted a lot of time on her character with foreshadowing events that never came to pass.

You are being way too nice by calling it foreshadowing. Foreshadowing involves subtlety. They didn't foreshadow anything; rather, they straight up showed us what was going to happen at the end of 9 and 10. They showed you the explosion under the sept, they also referenced the wildfire in several different episodes. And they totally told you the vale was coming to save Sansa, in more than one episode.

 

I'm not even arguing with you or disagreeing with you, I'm saying its not subtle to tell us whats going to happen and then deliver on exactly what you said. It's just weird. 

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5 minutes ago, Naturally Low Highborn said:

They've played cat and mouse since Margery's arrival to KL.  Cersie one ups or wins , then Margery one ups or wins.  Margery just allowed Cersie to get the last major one up.

I suppose that is the resolution of all the scheming, but it's not the pay-off I'd hoped for either.  I mean, Margery schemed, Cersei schemed, and they competed in the Game of Thrones, but Margery lost before we could see her full plan, and so that is unfulfilled.  If Cersei was to win, then so be it: I can accept that.  What I cannot accept is that Margery died before putting all the plans they foreshadowed into motion, so we're left wondering what the hell she was up to.  Why not show us and then have Cersei win?

Also, Cersei "winning" over Margery is somewhat depressing since we know how Cersei's end will come courtesy of Maggy, though I supposed that outcome was necessary to advance the story.  Also, Cersei v. Dany is perhaps more interesting than Margery v. Dany.

Edited by IceSyckel
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5 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

Buy why spend all the previous episodes insinuating that Margery was scheming, and had things under control, when in the end she had no plan, no scheme, she just wanted to show off her incredible artistic skills to her grandmother 

She was scheming. She pretended to be converted to get out of her Walk, and to secure the High Sparrow's agreement that Loras would be freed and allowed to return to Highgarden. She feels betrayed ("You mutilated him. You gave me your word.") but the HS claims Loras was free to leave after Cersei's trial. Then the sept blew up.

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5 minutes ago, Naturally Low Highborn said:

They've played cat and mouse since Margery's arrival to KL.  Cersie one ups or wins , then Margery one ups or wins.  Margery just allowed Cersie to get the last major one up.

No, no... Margery didn't have anything in mind. They just made us think she did. 

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2 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

No, no... Margery didn't have anything in mind. They just made us think she did. 

Yeah - it feels a bit like false advertising.  They certainly made it seem like Margery had another grand plan to unveil, but perhaps she was only scheming for Loras' release and that thread was resolved when the HS screwed her.  Yeah Loras was released, but then he turns to the HS of his own free will and sacrifices his lands and titles.  That's all well and good, but it seemed like Margery was playing a larger game, and I'm left thinking "That was it?"

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I like this season but there were a lot of problems. Here are some of my problems:

1. There is way too much "but at the last minute "________" swept in to save the day.

     a. Brienne saves Sansa at the last minute.

     b. Benjen saves Bran at the last minute. 

     c. Littlefinger saves Jon at the last minute.

2. There is so much re-using of previous material

    a. Dany doesnt burn and everyone bows, almost exactly the same but larger. 

    b. King in the North scene rehashed almost word for word

    c. Red wedding re-creation scene. 

Edited by Grizzly Mormont
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4 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

I like this season but there were a lot of problems. Here are some of my problems:

1. There is way too much "but at the last minute "________" swept in to save the day.

     a. Brienne saves Sansa at the last minute.

     b. Benjen saves Bran at the last minute. 

     c. Littlefinger saves Jon at the last minute.

2. There is so much re-using of previous material

    a. Dany doesnt burn and everyone bows, almost exactly the same but larger. 

    b. King in the North scene rehashed almost word for word

    c. Red wedding re-creation scene. 

While I don't mind them telling us what will happen and then having it actually happen (maybe that's not subtle enough to be "foreshadowing," per se, but I like the consistency of them not jerking us around just for the sake of jerking us around), I do nevertheless agree a LOT with your Problem #1.

It's too deus ex machina (or whatever) to insert a solution at the last second so often even if there was some telegraphing for it.  It's one thing for it to happen every now and then but quite another for it to happen 3x or more in the same freking season.

Your Problem #2, well, I don't have an issue with that.  ASOIAF, and GoT by extension, are adapted from various occurences in real-life history.  History repeats itself.  Now, I agree that with Dany not burning, well that one is not historically derived and seems to be an overuse of the novelty, but what bothers me more about that it that GRRM has said she is not fire-proof and that the first occurrence was a special case.  It is less special each time it happens again, no?

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15 minutes ago, IceSyckel said:

Yeah - it feels a bit like false advertising.  They certainly made it seem like Margery had another grand plan to unveil, but perhaps she was only scheming for Loras' release and that thread was resolved when the HS screwed her.  Yeah Loras was released, but then he turns to the HS of his own free will and sacrifices his lands and titles.  That's all well and good, but it seemed like Margery was playing a larger game, and I'm left thinking "That was it?"

The larger game was stacking the deck against Cersie's via her trial.  She successfully got Cersie's trial by combat card trump card nullified.  She was getting her brother freed from the sparrow's cell.  She has/had Tommen by the balls (literally and figuratively) and would manipulate him well after Cersie's trial and consequences no matter what those consequences were.  

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23 minutes ago, IceSyckel said:

Yeah - it feels a bit like false advertising.  They certainly made it seem like Margery had another grand plan to unveil, but perhaps she was only scheming for Loras' release and that thread was resolved when the HS screwed her.  Yeah Loras was released, but then he turns to the HS of his own free will and sacrifices his lands and titles.  That's all well and good, but it seemed like Margery was playing a larger game, and I'm left thinking "That was it?"

Theoretically once Loras is free and she is free that's all she really needs.  She can convince Tommen to do whatever she wants, including disband the Faith Militant because she's got the Tyrell army and the Lannister army to back her.  Cersei would be in prison or dead.  

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17 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

I like this season but there were a lot of problems. Here are some of my problems:

1. There is way too much "but at the last minute "________" swept in to save the day.

     a. Brienne saves Sansa at the last minute.

     b. Benjen saves Bran at the last minute. 

     c. Littlefinger saves Jon at the last minute.

2. There is so much re-using of previous material

    a. Dany doesnt burn and everyone bows, almost exactly the same but larger. 

    b. King in the North scene rehashed almost word for word

    c. Red wedding re-creation scene. 

(1)  It's isn't "but at the last minute" if they've been building the rescue.  Brienne had been on her trail for AGES!  We know she's going to be following her towards the Wall.  So, it's a build up that paid off with rescue.  LIttlefinger's save was more believable that Stannis' last minute save as we knew Sansa had asked for help.  If Benjen had of been there at the door (RIP Hodor) then I'd call that a saves at the last minute.  He didn't so it isn't.

(2)Let's go back to the "you must go south to go north, back to go forward....."  It's just what Dany did.  She went back to start again at the Mountain of Mothers (???) or whatever the crone's nursing home is called. Once she did, she went forward, and finally started on the path to Westeros.  Likewise, the north has went back to start again, with a new King in the North.

Edited by Naturally Low Highborn
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5 minutes ago, Naturally Low Highborn said:

The larger game was stacking the deck against Cersie's via her trial.  She successfully got Cersie's trial by combat card trump card nullified.  She was getting her brother freed from the sparrow's cell.  She has/had Tommen by the balls (literally and figuratively) and would manipulate him well after Cersie's trial and consequences no matter what those consequences were.  

 

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Theoretically once Loras is free and she is free that's all she really needs.  She can convince Tommen to do whatever she wants, including disband the Faith Militant because she's got the Tyrell army and the Lannister army to back her.  Cersei would be in prison or dead.  

You're both correct, of course..  I guess knowing this would have been enough in a books, but I would have liked to see this play out more on screen in the show.  Seems like it all happened so fast, as if rushed, that I didn't get time to really enjoy the resolution of Margery's scheming.

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7 minutes ago, IceSyckel said:

 

You're both correct, of course..  I guess knowing this would have been enough in a books, but I would have liked to see this play out more on screen in the show.  Seems like it all happened so fast, as if rushed, that I didn't get time to really enjoy the resolution of Margery's scheming.

I've always thought of the whole Cersie/Margery plot as time filler until Dany gets herself and her dragons to Westeros.

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1 minute ago, Naturally Low Highborn said:

I've always thought of the whole Cersie/Margery plot as time filler until Dany gets herself and her dragons to Westeros.

I was actually enjoying their dispute, and I guess I was just hoping for a bigger payoff, though that does not diminish my anticipation for the resolution of the larger scale conflicts.  On the whole I enjoyed this season, even if it did feel like it was a little hurried/rushed (in terms of pace, not production).  I don't expect them to wait for GRRM to finish a book, but neither should they rush the pace to the point where Varys practically teleports between entire continents...

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3 minutes ago, Darksky said:

They have beeing pretty adamant on showing just how much Jon resembles Ned. In looks, demeanor and even lines.

http://i.imgur.com/JrZDqSv.jpg

http://imgur.com/1vB5Ksg

I'm not saying you're wrong, but what's the significance?  

No one doubts that Jon is either: (1) Ned's nephew; or (2) Ned's son.  So, it would not be unusual for Jon to look like Ned regardless of whether his Stark blood came from Ned or Lyanna.  Also, it would not be unusual if he did not look like Ned in that of Ned's other children, only Arya favors him.  I don't think the resemblance is probative of anything, really.

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2 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

Also what happened to the Tyrell army? Shouldn't they arrest and hang Cersei? Cersei does not have any military support other than 1 freaking huge monster zombie. 

Yeah, many questions linger, I think, because they rushed to cover too much material in one season.  It was a great season, but I don't know why they couldn't take more time to cover all the details.

I guess the army might've left with the QoT, though no explanation is given for why that might be...

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2 hours ago, Zorral said:

Now for one more thing in response to the finale, about which I'm surely to be wrong since I've been wrong in my guesses so often: Maybe it's Robert who was the father of Jon Snow, not Rhaegar?  That way, if there is a union between Dany and John, all the ruling lines are represented: Targaryen, Stark and Baratheon, and everybody's happy.

If Dany is the child of Rhaella and Tywin Lannister, it would be even better! ;)

1 hour ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

so what the hell was margery's plan? to just trust in faith? why did we have to sit through all that time in that weird room with HS. 

I think she brokered a deal to trade Cersei for Loras, based on her convo with HS. That's the only reason I'm not completely blaming Cersei for her death.

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