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1 hour ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

This stern, indefatigable king whose word is iron and whose will is stone. He sounds like a badass. He must be in some other show, though... dear. 

He doesn't have to be stern or indefatigable. He just has to say, "Lord Tyrell will remove his army from the city" because the High Sparrow, Cersei, and/or Margaery told him to, and then Mace will remove his army from the city. He didn't have to be stern or indefatigable when he walked out of the Great Sept and stood with the High Sparrow against Mace, Jamie and Tyrell army, either.

I mean, Loras and Margaery were in the dungeons for who knows how long. What did Mace do? Nothing, that's what. He only brought in his troops when Cersei and Jamie put him up to it. What did he do on the steps of the Great Sept, with his strength behind him, when his son and heir remained in the dungeons? Nothing, that's what. What is the evidence that, regardless of all this, the Tyrell army remained in the city? There is no evidence. And yet, you assume the army remained and that it is therefore a plot hole because the army didn't hang Cersei after she blew up House Tyrell. It's rather odd.

You're starting to remind me of my grandmother with the "dears." :D

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On 27/06/2016 at 4:22 AM, Sonoftheharpie said:

I sensed Santa's look was not one of jealousy at all, but one of absolute disdain for LF. She was grinning ear-to-ear when they pronounced Jon King until she caught LF's gaze.....

I disagree slightly did anyone else not think that look was a mutual realisation that Sansa had played LF as he normally plays others, she used him for his army (knowing his desire for her would lead him to help) found out his greatest desire and then sat back and admired her work as he lost his army to Jon and fell down a rung or two on the ladder.... I'm pretty sure shes known for ages what LF wants and hes taught her to use people's desires to your own ends she's just finally found the minerals to play the game

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25 minutes ago, Greg B said:

He doesn't have to be stern or indefatigable. He just has to say, "Lord Tyrell will remove his army from the city" because the High Sparrow, Cersei, and/or Margaery told him to, and then Mace will remove his army from the city. He didn't have to be stern or indefatigable when he walked out of the Great Sept and stood with the High Sparrow against Mace, Jamie and Tyrell army, either.

I mean, Loras and Margaery were in the dungeons for who knows how long. What did Mace do? Nothing, that's what. He only brought in his troops when Cersei and Jamie put him up to it. What did he do on the steps of the Great Sept, with his strength behind him, when his son and heir remained in the dungeons? Nothing, that's what. What is the evidence that, regardless of all this, the Tyrell army remained in the city? There is no evidence. And yet, you assume the army remained and that it is therefore a plot hole because the army didn't hang Cersei after she blew up House Tyrell. It's rather odd.

You're starting to remind me of my grandmother with the "dears." :D

The point is, both in history and in the show, once army enters a city, it is difficult to make it leave again. Especially if it has every reason to want to stay there. 

Mace could not have gotten the army in without permission, but making it leave is another story. He has no reason to tell them to leave, and 3 reasons to want them to stay. Dear. 

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5 hours ago, IceSyckel said:

Certainly it is possible that the showrunners are torturing us with a clever scheme to make us THINK that R+L=J when in reality something else was said.  However, at this point, that would anger fans of the books and the show alike for no appreciable reason.

You mean like that time they tricked us into thinking that the Waif had stabbed Arya in the gut? :/

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A lot of people are posting about the child's being Roberts and not rhaegars. First of all, the marriage between Lyanna and Robert was arranged and considering the sanctity of marriage and virginity in the westeros culture, I find it hard to believe that Lyanna would sleep with Robert out of wedlock. She didn't even seem to love him, let alone lust him. It's also further evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married prior to Jon being conceived. Putting all that aside, I think a lot of people are forgetting that the baratheons ARE Targaryens. They are an offshoot line from the past. I realize the show doesn't intertwine the bloodlines like the book does but Robert Baratheon was a direct Targ descendent. That is also why Robert gets the IT after the war. He has the best claim because the Targ line has been extinguished and he is the eldest male heir of a Targ offshoot. Either way, Jon is a Targaryen. 

Edited by Stannis Lives
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22 minutes ago, Stannis Lives said:

A lot of people are posting about the child's being Roberts and not rhaegars. First of all, the marriage between Lyanna and Robert was arranged and considering the sanctity of marriage and virginity in the westeros culture, I find it hard to believe that Lyanna would sleep with Robert out of wedlock. She didn't even seem to love him, let alone lust him. It's also further evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married prior to Jon being conceived. Putting all that aside, I think a lot of people are forgetting that the baratheons ARE Targaryens. They are an offshoot line from the past. I realize the show doesn't intertwine the bloodlines like the book does but Robert Baratheon was a direct Targ descendent. That is also why Robert gets the IT after the war. He has the best claim because the Targ line has been extinguished and he is the eldest male heir of a Targ offshoot. Either way, Jon is a Targaryen. 

Well, his great grandmother was a targaryen. Thats not the same as saying he's a direct descendant in terms of inheritance.

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1 hour ago, All-Bran said:

I disagree slightly did anyone else not think that look was a mutual realisation that Sansa had played LF as he normally plays others, she used him for his army (knowing his desire for her would lead him to help) found out his greatest desire and then sat back and admired her work as he lost his army to Jon and fell down a rung or two on the ladder.... I'm pretty sure shes known for ages what LF wants and hes taught her to use people's desires to your own ends she's just finally found the minerals to play the game

I'm certain that is exactly what LF wants her to think...

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3 hours ago, IceSyckel said:

I agree that it makes no sense and seems improbable, but the QoT's presence in Dorne for that meeting implies she had something to offer Dorne/the Sand Snakes in the way of military strength for the proposed alliance.  Again, why the armies of Highgarden would have left Mace and Margery alone in KL for a trial is hard to figure.

...

 

I suppose it is possible that in between episodes, Margery was able to relay the message that the "fix was in," and so the army need not remain in KL, but yeah... as usual with D&D, it makes no sense.

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45 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

Well, his great grandmother was a targaryen. Thats not the same as saying he's a direct descendant in terms of inheritance.

His grandmother was a Targ. His great grandfather was Aegon. His father and both of Danys parents are first cousins. In fact, if Jon was Rhaegars son, he would also be Roberts cousin. 

Edited by Stannis Lives
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A couple of random thoughts on the best episode of this show yet.

1.  I get the sense that they didn't spell out R+L=J to give Martin one last chance to release TWoW and be the one who reveals it officially.  

2.  I think Benjen is an agent of the Night King and has led Bran to the wall to tear it down when he crosses it.  We have absolutely no proof that it was the CotF who saved him and not the Night King.  So the zombies were never going to kill Bran, they just needed to lead him out of the cave and into his uncle.  This would mean the story of Hodor is even more tragic...  

3.  If the wall does come down when Bran crosses it, I imagine we will see Danny race past Kings Landing to help fight off the WW invasion, allowing Cerci time to consolidate power (with Euron and Littlefinger) prior to the final battle between them in the last season.  The size of Danny's current army makes me think that there needs to be a complication, and I can imagine Tyrion counseling her to ignore the Iron Throne and show Westeros what a great leader she is by going  up north to fight the grumpkins.  That should reduce the size of her army enough to have it be a closer fight with Cerci.

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Any theory that begins, 'show can't do X because fans would be furious' is idiotic. No, HBO can and will totally crap on fan theories if GRRM tells them different. Most cases the fans complained it was because the show runners knew the larger plot arcs that they don't. It is now obvious that the endgame will be in Winterfell, there is little left in KL. So sending Sansa up North was essential.

9 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

I just want to share this with you:

Today, we were discussing the episode at lunch and one of my colleagues told me that it was cool that we had found out that Jon was a son of Lyanna Stark and Robert Baratheon because they were married and had a son and now we know that the son is Jon.

I almost choked on my pancake.

Makes more sense than R+L. He can't be a bastard. 

But makes Lyanna and Ned both utterly awful for hiding the kid.

9 hours ago, Lady Lark of the NorthWood said:

This is something I have first-hand knowledge of. When my youngest daughter was 10 days old (she's now 38, yes, I'm old), I began hemorrhaging. In the 15 minutes that it took to get to the hospital, I'd lost so much blood that I had to have a transfusion. My clothes were soaked in blood, and there was a puddle in the wheelchair used to wheel me into the ER.

So, it's very possible that the baby could've been a few days old, and, if Lyanna was hemorrhaging, her bed, and clothing, would've been blood-soaked.

It is possible. But it is possible does not mean it must be so.

I have a science degree. When testing a scientific theory you look for evidence that disproves it. We know what the scene is set up to imply. But as with the books, misdirection.

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2 hours ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

Well, his great grandmother was a targaryen. Thats not the same as saying he's a direct descendant in terms of inheritance.

ah, right. Egg was dany's great grandfather and roberts great grandfather. thats fuckin weird. Egg's daughter was roberts grandmother. 

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3 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

You mean like that time they tricked us into thinking that the Waif had stabbed Arya in the gut? :/

How many times have people declared Lady Stoneheart going to arrive?

Cry of someone like they were stabbed, not giving birth. Blood on clothes like someone stabbed, not giving birth. Clean baby, obviously not new born  ==> Lyana just gave birth!

The show runners love to trick folk on the forums into thinking their pet theories right just before they are smashed into little bits.

The key to everything is in the crypts. And they sent Rickon to be buried with his father.

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18 minutes ago, hallam said:

How many times have people declared Lady Stoneheart going to arrive?

Cry of someone like they were stabbed, not giving birth. Blood on clothes like someone stabbed, not giving birth. Clean baby, obviously not new born  ==> Lyana just gave birth!

The show runners love to trick folk on the forums into thinking their pet theories right just before they are smashed into little bits.

The key to everything is in the crypts. And they sent Rickon to be buried with his father.

I do think a major clue is in the crypts. Potentially more than just a clue. However that doesn't disqualify Lyanna from being Jons mother. She clearly is. I think the zooming in on the baby's face, transitioning to current day Jon was pretty straightforward. As was the blood, the promise, and the naming of the baby (she was stabbed but knew the baby's name and felt that was important to convey at that moment?).

Not to mention that while Rhaegar was being defeated at the Trident, Rhaegars best friend Arthur Dayne, the greatest swordsman who ever lived, was defending a random castle that housed a random baby along with Ned's recently stabbed and dying sister? Ned then decides to take the random baby, raise it as his own, and never tell anyone that it was actually a random baby he found in a random castle, next to his randomly stabbed dying sister while being protected by Arthur Dayne?

Imagine if Ned told his own devoted wife that the random baby he brought home was in actuality a random baby that he picked up from a random castle and not his bastard son. Wow, that would be a shocker. 

Edited by Stannis Lives
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10 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

So how does Arya and Varys travel the entire realms of Westeros and Essos in the blink of an eye and Jaime makes it back to KL but Brienne and Pod can't make it to Winterfell?  

Ask Gwendoline Christie's agent! There's no real good reason that Brienne couldn't have been back at Winterfell for Lady Mormont's stiirring speech on behalf of Jon Snow (give that girl an Emmy now!)

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Here is a nice little parallel between the literal and the symbolic.

Judging from Jon's parentage symbolically you get ice and fire. A long suspected belief with Jon.

But what about the literal aspect. If Jon walks between both does anyone else? There may be one, Drink from the cup of fire, drink from the cup of ice.

Jon died, and came back via a priestess of fire. In the books they take the fire within themselves this is what gives them life. The Night's King is also undead, he had the fire taken out this makes him ice of course.

And who would stand between those two in the literal aspect of things? Lets say they both happen to want her.

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8 hours ago, IceSyckel said:

I agree with you here, and this is the flipside of my R+L=J concerns.  Instead of a lack of foreshadowing for a major event contrary to the gravamen of the evidence, Margery's fate actually represents a lot of foreshadowing that never developed into anything significant.  

Example: the flower drawing she gave her grandmother, as you referenced.  What did that accomplish?  I suppose it got the QoT to avoid the trial, which setup her trip to Dorne, but there were other, simpler and less time-consuming ways to arrive at the same end. I feel like the show wasted a lot of time on her character with foreshadowing events that never came to pass.

Margery warned the QoT to leave KL. Otherwise she would have been in the Sept of Baelor. Then she would be dead and unable to throw the strength of Highgarden behind Dorne/Daenarys. I have to assume that will be significant.

I think Madge was there to throw viewers off, to make them think that she was the younger and more beautiful queen that would unseat Cersei. Plus, her death led to Tommen's sorrow and suicide.

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