[Spoilers] EP610

[Arya Gendry]

15 hours ago, Stannis Lives said:

It's against the law to use babies under a certain age in films. That is why every single movie ever made that depicts a newborn has a baby that is a few months old.

THANK YOU. I mean I've seen TV "newborns" who look eligible to drive. NOT evidence of science OR mystery. 

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Two random thoughts.  

Both may have already been brought up by others.

1) Cersei and Jaime really reminded me of Michael and Kay at the end of the Godfather.  After Michael settled the family business and Kay was like who the fcuk am I married to?  It is kind of apt, because Michael become Vito, and Cersei actually surpasses Tywin by becoming Queen in her own right, only with extra crazy sauce.  

2) I did not notice any Sun Spear sails in Dany's armada but, I did not see any other definitive evidence that says they were sailing TO Dorne rather than FROM Dorne.  What if they picked up Varys and Dornish allies on the way to King's Landing rather than Varys rejoining Tyrion in Meereen.  It cuts down on the need for a Westerosi wormhole for speedy travel

Actually I have no problem with how D&D liberally use time passing off screen to save travel time.  I think that all the hand wringing about it is kind of funny.

 

 

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

On 6/28/2016 at 2:40 PM, IceSyckel said:

As I said, opinions can vary, but you're talking semantics at any rate.  The point we're discussing is whether it would be convoluted and/or intricate for the showrunners to give us such clear evidence of R+L=J in this finale and then take it away next season with some sudden revelation or development not foreshadowed in previous episodes.  What is your thought on this?

Personally I think it was an attempt by the show-runners to leave some shred of the R+L=J theory unspoiled in the books.  If you want to know what Lyanna says to Ned, read the book.  Such huge chunks are spoiled already.  Jon's resurrection, Dany's victory in Meereen, Mad Queen Cersei.  I think they wanted to leave GRRM a little something.   

[CrypticWeirwood]

20 hours ago, hallam said:

How many times have people declared Lady Stoneheart going to arrive?

Cry of someone like they were stabbed, not giving birth. Blood on clothes like someone stabbed, not giving birth. Clean baby, obviously not new born  ==> Lyana just gave birth!

The show runners love to trick folk on the forums into thinking their pet theories right just before they are smashed into little bits.

The key to everything is in the crypts. And they sent Rickon to be buried with his father.

Sometimes, and with this show perhaps more often than you would think, what you see is what you get. It's all over.

With that WYSIWYG revelation putting the final nail in the coffin of a thousand million tinfoil fantasies, let us now move on.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

22 hours ago, olibar said:

A couple of random thoughts on the best episode of this show yet.

1.  I get the sense that they didn't spell out R+L=J to give Martin one last chance to release TWoW and be the one who reveals it officially.  

2.  I think Benjen is an agent of the Night King and has led Bran to the wall to tear it down when he crosses it.  We have absolutely no proof that it was the CotF who saved him and not the Night King.  So the zombies were never going to kill Bran, they just needed to lead him out of the cave and into his uncle.  This would mean the story of Hodor is even more tragic...  

3.  If the wall does come down when Bran crosses it, I imagine we will see Danny race past Kings Landing to help fight off the WW invasion, allowing Cerci time to consolidate power (with Euron and Littlefinger) prior to the final battle between them in the last season.  The size of Danny's current army makes me think that there needs to be a complication, and I can imagine Tyrion counseling her to ignore the Iron Throne and show Westeros what a great leader she is by going  up north to fight the grumpkins.  That should reduce the size of her army enough to have it be a closer fight with Cerci.

#1.  My thought exactly.  

I hadn't considered #2 and #3.  Not sure that I think they will happen, but I wouldn't be mad.  Interesting ideas.

Cold Hands proved himself an ally, but GRRM says Uncle BJ isn't cold hands. Cold hands saving Sam and helping Bran seemed to be at the direct behest of the 3ER.  Bloodraven is dead now.  BJ could possibly be something else.  

We do see BJ kill WW's but that could be subterfuge.  They are all dead after all.  What difference does it make to them.     

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

On 6/28/2016 at 2:52 PM, IceSyckel said:

I suppose that is the resolution of all the scheming, but it's not the pay-off I'd hoped for either.  I mean, Margery schemed, Cersei schemed, and they competed in the Game of Thrones, but Margery lost before we could see her full plan, and so that is unfulfilled.  If Cersei was to win, then so be it: I can accept that.  What I cannot accept is that Margery died before putting all the plans they foreshadowed into motion, so we're left wondering what the hell she was up to.  Why not show us and then have Cersei win?

Also, Cersei "winning" over Margery is somewhat depressing since we know how Cersei's end will come courtesy of Maggy, though I supposed that outcome was necessary to advance the story.  Also, Cersei v. Dany is perhaps more interesting than Margery v. Dany.

I hate to say it again but I think the GRRM will tell the story of Maid Margery much better.  No slight to what I think was a fantastic season.  The show just doesn't have the time and space to let the Rose of Highgarden bloom in full.  

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

One other random thought.  I understand why Olenna wants revenge against Cersei, but...she struck Cersei first by killing Joff.

Really, one could say that she set events in motion that cost her her entire house.  

I always thought that Cersei vs Margery was mostly Cersei's paranoia.

I don't think Margery needed to destroy Cersei to get what she wanted.   

Maggie's Queen was always going to be Dany.   

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

On 6/28/2016 at 4:50 PM, Greg B said:

No. It's the king's call. Mace has no influence with the king.

Furthermore Mace proved over and over that he was Tommen's equal in wussery.  Mace was weak through and through.  The toughest thing about him was his name.  

It is uncertain what the Tyrell army would have done after the destruction of the great sept.  If they were inside the walls or just outside the walls, who would give the orders?  The private armies were employees.  I don't see them attacking the Lannisters without orders.    

Olenna had declared she was going to Highgarden.  I assume she went.  In her position I think that it is equally plausible that she would strike back or that she would wait and play a more strategic game.  

Either way, nothing is certain.    

[CrypticWeirwood]

11 minutes ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

Personally I think it was an attempt by the show-runners to leave some shred of the R+L=J theory unspoiled in the books.  If you want to know what Lyanna says to Ned, read the book.  Such huge chunks are spoiled already.  Jon's resurrection, Dany's victory in Meereen, Mad Queen Cersei.  I think they wanted to leave GRRM a little something.   

So much for that idea.

[Tywin Tytosson]

6 hours ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

Two random thoughts.  

Both may have already been brought up by others.

1) Cersei and Jaime really reminded me of Michael and Kay at the end of the Godfather.  After Michael settled the family business and Kay was like who the fcuk am I married to?  It is kind of apt, because Michael become Vito, and Cersei actually surpasses Tywin by becoming Queen in her own right, only with extra crazy sauce.  

2) I did not notice any Sun Spear sails in Dany's armada but, I did not see any other definitive evidence that says they were sailing TO Dorne rather than FROM Dorne.  What if they picked up Varys and Dornish allies on the way to King's Landing rather than Varys rejoining Tyrion in Meereen.  It cuts down on the need for a Westerosi wormhole for speedy travel

Actually I have no problem with how D&D liberally use time passing off screen to save travel time.  I think that all the hand wringing about it is kind of funny.

 

 

1) now that u mention it .... i see what u mean.  good one!  it could have been intentional.  the whole KL stuff just felt like the Godfather.

 

2) hmmm.....interesting thought ... but... the sand snakes or Ellarria should be on a ship.

would the armada attack KL or Dragonstone first?  would the armada even try an ambphib-invasion?  why not just march overland from Dorne?  i can see taking Dragonstone (symbolic and threatens KL from the sea ..and allows a naval blockade of sorts), but the cavalry of Dothraki would do better riding north no?  and looting and pillaging as the went.  spread the fear and terror and maybe entice Cersei to fight them outside the walls and fortifications of KL, where the Dothraki would be their most effective.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Thror Baratheon

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 6/28/2016 at 6:39 PM, All-Bran said:

I disagree slightly did anyone else not think that look was a mutual realisation that Sansa had played LF as he normally plays others, she used him for his army (knowing his desire for her would lead him to help) found out his greatest desire and then sat back and admired her work as he lost his army to Jon and fell down a rung or two on the ladder.... I'm pretty sure shes known for ages what LF wants and hes taught her to use people's desires to your own ends she's just finally found the minerals to play the game

mmmm...not really.  i took sansas look as a realization the LF would now try some scheme and become a thread to Jon and House Stark.   i thought her look was more fearful concern and the start of worry.

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 6/28/2016 at 8:37 PM, olibar said:

A couple of random thoughts on the best episode of this show yet.

1.  I get the sense that they didn't spell out R+L=J to give Martin one last chance to release TWoW and be the one who reveals it officially.  

2.  I think Benjen is an agent of the Night King and has led Bran to the wall to tear it down when he crosses it.  We have absolutely no proof that it was the CotF who saved him and not the Night King.  So the zombies were never going to kill Bran, they just needed to lead him out of the cave and into his uncle.  This would mean the story of Hodor is even more tragic...  

3.  If the wall does come down when Bran crosses it, I imagine we will see Danny race past Kings Landing to help fight off the WW invasion, allowing Cerci time to consolidate power (with Euron and Littlefinger) prior to the final battle between them in the last season.  The size of Danny's current army makes me think that there needs to be a complication, and I can imagine Tyrion counseling her to ignore the Iron Throne and show Westeros what a great leader she is by going  up north to fight the grumpkins.  That should reduce the size of her army enough to have it be a closer fight with Cerci.

I can't see this (the bolded in #3.).  Danny does notknow about the ww and has not plan nor thought about them.  she would need somebody to convince her to do this, like Mel did for/to Stannis.  I would expect her to still attack KL/Cersei and secure what she came for -- the Iron Throne.  After that ... maybe Jon or Davos convinces her (or Tyrion) of this necessity.  or a Red Priest(ess).  I would expect her to head North at some point to attempt re-integration/re-conquest of the independent North.  Maybe then she realizes the WW threat and help deal with them

Edited June 30, 2016 by Thror Baratheon

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

5 hours ago, Thror Baratheon said:

2) hmmm.....interesting thought ... but... the sand snakes or Ellarria should be on a ship.

would the armada attack KL or Dragonstone first?  would the armada even try an ambphib-invasion?  why not just march overland from Dorne?  i can see taking Dragonstone (symbolic and threatens KL from the sea ..and allows a naval blockade of sorts), but the cavalry of Dothraki would do better riding north no?  and looting and pillaging as the went.  spread the fear and terror and maybe entice Cersei to fight them outside the walls and fortifications of KL, where the Dothraki would be their most effective.

Good points.  I only meant to suggest that mayhap Dany has already been to Dorne, not to suggest whee she might land.  And you are right, one or all of the Sand Snakes would probably have been visible on deck if she were departing from Dorne.  

I absolutely like your idea of setting loose the Dothraki to draw the defenders out of their strongholds and then crushing them from sea, air and land.  Dany's forces are a giant Seal Team.

The show has not mentioned Euron's dragon horn at all.  I hope that mean that it doesn't factor that much in the books.  I really hope it turns out to be a bust.  I would hate to see any of Dany's three dragons destroyed or even turned against her.  

I have also considered that maybe Euron's horn is actually the Horn of Joramun and he just doesn't know it.  Since I think the dragons are key to ultimate victory, I would almost rather see the horn crack the wall, than turn the dragons.  

  

[All-Bran]

On 29 June 2016 at 0:53 AM, Ross2013 said:

I'm certain that is exactly what LF wants her to think...

Fair point

[JMJ]

On June 29, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

Two random thoughts.  

Both may have already been brought up by others.

1) Cersei and Jaime really reminded me of Michael and Kay at the end of the Godfather.  After Michael settled the family business and Kay was like who the fcuk am I married to?  It is kind of apt, because Michael become Vito, and Cersei actually surpasses Tywin by becoming Queen in her own right, only with extra crazy sauce.  

2) I did not notice any Sun Spear sails in Dany's armada but, I did not see any other definitive evidence that says they were sailing TO Dorne rather than FROM Dorne.  What if they picked up Varys and Dornish allies on the way to King's Landing rather than Varys rejoining Tyrion in Meereen.  It cuts down on the need for a Westerosi wormhole for speedy travel

Actually I have no problem with how D&D liberally use time passing off screen to save travel time.  I think that all the hand wringing about it is kind of funny.

 

 

For 1) - yes, I suspect the show intended to evoke the entire finale of The Godfather. The way they lingered on everyone getting ready for the day of an important event (the Cersei/Margaery/Loaras trials vs. the baptism of baby Corleone), the way they had Cersei use a religious event to grab power and eliminate her enemies, and yes, that final look between Cersei and Jaime was exactly like Michael and Kay, even with the ritual of seating Cersei on the IT vs. having Michael sit in the Don's chair and have his hand kissed. 

For 2), there were indeed Dornish (and Tyrell) ships. I think we can't really conclude from that scene whether Dany's fleet met them halfway, or whether they are already ashore from Dorne, perhaps near the mouth of the Mander, who knows. In fact, this may be a way they meld the TV storyline with the IronBorn reaving along the Mander story from the books. Having Sam in Oldtown (finally) gives the show a POV from the shore. 

[JMJ]

Another lingering, random question. We are probably all hoping the show never sets foot in Meereen or Slavers' Dragon Bay. If so, what was the point of introducing Kinvara? Just to rattle Varys for 2 minutes? For that matter, how do they plan to tie up the Essos stories in the show? Are we going to get scenes of Daario ruling Meereen? Or do we just get a few random throwaway lines from someone about the goings-on there? 

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

6 minutes ago, JMJ said:

Another lingering, random question. We are probably all hoping the show never sets foot in Meereen or Slavers' Dragon Bay. If so, what was the point of introducing Kinvara? Just to rattle Varys for 2 minutes? For that matter, how do they plan to tie up the Essos stories in the show? Are we going to get scenes of Daario ruling Meereen? Or do we just get a few random throwaway lines from someone about the goings-on there? 

Perhaps Kinvara is in Dany's Armada.  What is interesting is if Melissandre encounters Kinvara in the South and tells her what's going on in the North, how does she react?  How do they resolve which one has the true "Promised One."   Does Thoros factor into it?  If Arya encounters Thoros and the Hound, do they follow her to Winterfell?  Does Arya become a stand in for LSH?  Many possibilities, all of them kind of awesome.  

[JMJ]

15 minutes ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

Perhaps Kinvara is in Dany's Armada.  What is interesting is if Melissandre encounters Kinvara in the South and tells her what's going on in the North, how does she react?  How do they resolve which one has the true "Promised One."   Does Thoros factor into it?  If Arya encounters Thoros and the Hound, do they follow her to Winterfell?  Does Arya become a stand in for LSH?  Many possibilities, all of them kind of awesome.  

Another possibility would be Kinvara standing in for Moqorro? But without Victorian in the show, who would that be? Yara/Asha?

[Lurid Jester]

1 hour ago, JMJ said:

If so, what was the point of introducing Kinvara?

Can't say for sure, obviously, but that scene made somethin click that I hadn't considered before.  

Information networks. 

Greenseers and their weirwood network. 

Maesters and their Raven network. 

Red priests and their fire network?

is someone using fire like the weirwood trees?  Collecting and relaying information though perhaps not as effectively?  I don't mean a god, or at least not in the traditional sense of the word.  More like a fireseer kind of thing.

I admit that I've never thought too much about the red priests before, so I may be retreading old ground.  It's just something that is stuck in my head along with the idea that they aren't necessarily the "good guys" and a bad fate awaits anyone who has benefited from their power. 

Like people brought back to life.  

Edited July 1, 2016 by Lurid Jester
Typos

[JMJ]

3 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Can't say for sure, obviously, but that scene made somethin click that I hadn't considered before.  

Information networks. 

Greenseers and their weirwood network. 

Maesters and their Raven network. 

Red priests and their fire network?

is someone using fire like the weirwood trees?  Collecting and relaying information though perhaps not as effectively?  I don't mean a god, or at least not in the traditional sense of the word.  More like a fireseer kind of thing.

I admit that I've never thought too much about the red priests before, so I may be retreading old ground.  It's just something that is stuck in my head along with the idea that they aren't necessarily the "good guys" and a bad fate awaits anyone who has benefited from their power. 

Like people brought back to life.  

Another way to put it is that in their world (Planetos), their "laws of nature" are such that certain natural phenomenon allow for the ability to see the future, see the past, etc. Various religions have developed to explain these otherwise difficult to explain phenomenon, but in the end, they can be explained by their laws of nature. It's certainly possible the followers of R'hllor tend towards being baddies, but that may or may not be inherent to their "fire network".