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11 hours ago, hallam said:

 

Oh so when everyone complained about the unnecessary feeding Miranda to the dogs, that unnecessary gay sex scene with Loras, etc. etc. the critics had it right.

Bran is the rightful lord of winterfell. But that doesn't really mean much. Sansa actually has a stronger claim.

Nah, they were just liquidating the KL plot and making sure there were no loose ends. Season 7/8 is about the WWs and clearing the board so that its Cersei vs Danny and Jon vs WWs.

More than 2 Queens. Queen Danny, Queen Cersei, Plus Yara sansa and the Queen of Thorns and the Dorne woman.

No. Cersei was only having her eyes put out. 'Last thing you see before you die'. 

Nope. All you found out was that Ned wasn't the father.

From the sight of her, it looks to me more like Lyanna was stabbed than the blood is due to birth. As in the books there is a baby placed in a room with blood. 

Rheagar has to be the father. The doubt is in the mother.

I am pretty sure that is deliberate.

Yep. That is why I think the Lyanna thing is the false lead. Why folk have to insist on her being the mother is beyond me.

Yep, in the last book. And the unsullied haven't been told there is an issue yet.

Two DIFFERENT people on this board think it's confirmed that Rhaegar is the father but Lyanna isn't necessarily the mother??!!  You can't make this stuff up. :lmao:

Edited by Stannis Lives

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Lyanna is the mother there is not even a question of it.... Jon may be the son of Rhaegar Targaryean but he is undeniably a Stark by his physical description so much so that in the books he was the most Stark-like in appearance it enfuriated Caitelyn Stark to the point of absolute hatred and disdain of Jon for looking more the son of Ned than any of her children...

Edited by Sonoftheharpie

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7 hours ago, McAssey said:

I suppose it should be Ser Pounce.

I think that in the books there may well have been more to Joffrey's death. I suspect Tommen actually killed him in revenge for killing his cats.

7 hours ago, Naturally Low Highborn said:

From a purely legal POV, Tommen left no heirs.  Robert, his "father", has no more heirs.  Robert's father has no more heirs and his other sons left no heirs.  We would have to go far back into the Baratheon lineage to get a true legal heir, sort of like Harry (?) the heir to the Vale scenarios.  

It really doesn't matter, the Plantagenet rule was 'first to Winchester'. Whoever controlled the royal treasury was king.

Cersei deliberately killed the entire elite of Kings landing to make sure that there were no alternatives. She was the Dowager Queen and the Regent as Queen Mother. Making the regent queen was pretty much the only logical step.

They killed of Pycelle in case he came up with other ideas.

38 minutes ago, Lany Freelove Cassandra said:

Have you ever witnessed childbirth? it is a bloody mess.

And if it was necessary to do a C-section, it is even worse. That is what it looked like to me (and I've seen it a few time...done it a few times)

There is no doubt who the mother is

Oh so because the blood could be childbirth it cannot possibly have any other explanation. Yes I have seen it, twice and nope it didn't look like anyone was stabbed in the left kidney.

Confirmation of Lyanna being the mother would be a newborn baby still covered in blood. There was nothing more in the show than in the books. I do not think that is a coincidence. It is obvious something is being hidden.

JonCon - whose name not coincidentally is 'I tell lies about Jon' is only introduced in the books after GRRM says that some folk had figured out who the mother was online. Now why would GRRM have introduced a character called 'I am a con' to give additional clues after they are unnecessary?

Jon is only the legitimate heir if he is Rheagar's and Elia's son. This is so obvious that there has to be some misdirection. Rheagar conceals the birth of the third son because he fears Aerys will kill him because of the three dragons prophecy.

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14 minutes ago, hallam said:

I think that in the books there may well have been more to Joffrey's death. I suspect Tommen actually killed him in revenge for killing his cats.

It really doesn't matter, the Plantagenet rule was 'first to Winchester'. Whoever controlled the royal treasury was king.

Cersei deliberately killed the entire elite of Kings landing to make sure that there were no alternatives. She was the Dowager Queen and the Regent as Queen Mother. Making the regent queen was pretty much the only logical step.

They killed of Pycelle in case he came up with other ideas.

Oh so because the blood could be childbirth it cannot possibly have any other explanation. Yes I have seen it, twice and nope it didn't look like anyone was stabbed in the left kidney.

Confirmation of Lyanna being the mother would be a newborn baby still covered in blood. There was nothing more in the show than in the books. I do not think that is a coincidence. It is obvious something is being hidden.

JonCon - whose name not coincidentally is 'I tell lies about Jon' is only introduced in the books after GRRM says that some folk had figured out who the mother was online. Now why would GRRM have introduced a character called 'I am a con' to give additional clues after they are unnecessary?

Jon is only the legitimate heir if he is Rheagar's and Elia's son. This is so obvious that there has to be some misdirection. Rheagar conceals the birth of the third son because he fears Aerys will kill him because of the three dragons prophecy.

It only appears obvious because millions of fans have speculated on every word of the books for 20 years. If these revelations turn out to be false, then GRRM is being disingenuous as he would be knowingly changing storylines, after the fact, simply because of fan theories. Just because it's obvious doesn't make it not true. Also, things have a habit of becoming "obvious" after the fact. It's revisionist history. 90% of consumers thought the original iPad was a completely failure. Find one person who remembers being part of that 90%. 

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Is it me or did Cersei not seem too disturbed by Tommen's death? Grief too strong?

I'm convinced that Jaime will kill Cersei out of rage/grief. He's gonna blame her for the death of their children . If not him, then Arya with Jaime's face. Although, I'm not sure how that would have to happen. I'd definitely want it to be Jaime though. Also wish she could have see Tommen fall to his death. Mean...I know 

 

Edited by Dracarys Snow
Typo

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3 hours ago, Sonoftheharpie said:

Lyanna is the mother there is not even a question of it.... Jon may be the son of Rhaegar Targaryean but he is undeniably a Stark by his physical description so much so that in the books he was the most Stark-like in appearance it enfuriated Caitelyn Stark to the point of absolute hatred and disdain of Jon for looking more the son of Ned than any of her children...

That is not what infuriated her regarding Jon... it was definitely the 'her husband fucked someone else' thing. 

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3 hours ago, hallam said:

Confirmation of Lyanna being the mother would be a newborn baby still covered in blood. There was nothing more in the show than in the books. I do not think that is a coincidence. It is obvious something is being hidden.

JonCon - whose name not coincidentally is 'I tell lies about Jon' is only introduced in the books after GRRM says that some folk had figured out who the mother was online. Now why would GRRM have introduced a character called 'I am a con' to give additional clues after they are unnecessary?

Jon is only the legitimate heir if he is Rheagar's and Elia's son. This is so obvious that there has to be some misdirection. Rheagar conceals the birth of the third son because he fears Aerys will kill him because of the three dragons prophecy.

I'm not going to call you names or try to tell you that your theory is stupid, but I see a lot of problems with it. Please note this is show only. Something else could happen in the books, but I agree with Stannis Lives that I really don't think that GRRM would be so "disingenuous."

  • Not all babies are born covered in blood. Some come out looking totally normal. Even if he was soaked in blood, someone wrapped him up. Obviously they cleaned him up with one of the many, many bloody towels laying around the room. His cleanliness is hardly evidence.
  • If Lyanna didn't birth him, who did? One of the nurses standing there? 99.99 percent of women can't stand up for hours after they give birth. Is there some random postpartum woman hiding deep within the TOJ?
  • But, no, you think the child is Rhaegar and Elia's. So where is Elia? When did she give birth? Having Rhaenys almost killed her, and after Aegon the Maesters aid she wouldn't have any more children. Rhaegar left Elia at Dragonstone and ran off with Lyanna, then Elia was a prisoner at KL. When would Rhaegar have impregnated her? Wouldn't someone have noticed that she was pregnant? The baby at the TOJ can't be Aegon. Aegon would be about 18 months old by then.So I just don't get that.How did she get back to KL to be raped and murdered. It's not Elia's baby. For a hundred reasons.
  • JonCon isn't in the show, and I don't think he will be. So whatever he knew/saw/says/does doesn't really matter.
  • In the scene, there's a blanket or something over Lyanna's stomach. Possibly covering up the massively botched C section performed with a dagger? That would explain the blood everywhere. Come on, man. She had a baby.
  • But let's just say that someone stabbed Lyanna. Who? Why? Why would nurses be attending her, and Kingsguard protecting her, just so she could die slowly? The only person/people who would want her dead would be Elia or the Martells. But again, Kingsguard. I don't see how that could happen. Rhaegar left her there with help and protection so she could birth their child. Unless the Kingsguard killed her, which WHY, and wouldn't she say ARTHUR DAYNE STABBED ME A LOT AND FORCED ME TO GIVE YOU THIS BABY?
  • If the baby wasn't Lyanna's, why was she so concerned about his safety? Why would she burden Ned with him if he wasn't half Stark? Why would Robert be so enraged if he wasn't hers? I guess Robert would want to murder any Targaryen, but he would want to super-kill that one.
  • If the dragon has three heads, and they are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion, then they all share the special distinction of killing their mothers during birth. Yes, including Jon, son of Lyanna.
  • If anything, Rhaegar may not be the father. Aerys may be the father of all three of them.
  • But let's just say it is Rhaegar, because it is, and talk about your tagline: "No matter how many times you say it, bastards can't inherit the Iron Throne in Westeros." IF Rhaegar married Lyanna, which is possible since he's a Targ, Jon isn't a bastard. Especially if he was born after Elia died. And 2 bastards have already inherited the Iron Throne. And I don't think that the IT is Jon's ambition or destiny anyway.

I respect your dedication to your theory, or rather your dogged disbelief in the R+L=J theory, but it's just really hard to justify. Like, damn near impossible to explain.

Edited by Arya Gendry
typo

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43 minutes ago, Dracarys Snow said:

Is it me or did Cersei not seem too disturbed by Tommen's death? Grief too strong?

I'm convinced that Jaime will kill Cersei out of rage/grief. He's gonna blame her for the death of their children . If not him, then Arya with Jaime's face. Although, I'm not sure how that would have to happen. I'd definitely want it to be Jaime though. Also wish she could have see Tommen fall to his death. Mean...I know 

 

Not grief, I don't think. More like numb. She knew it would happen, she realizes it's her fault, and she's completely off her rocker. I don't think she feels anything.

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4 minutes ago, Arya Gendry said:

I'm not going to call you names or try to tell you that your theory is stupid, but I see a lot of problems with it. Please note this is show only. Something else could happen in the books, but I agree with Stannis Lives that I really don't think that GRRM would be so "disingenuous."

  • Not all babies are born covered in blood. Some come out looking totally normal. Even if he was soaked in blood, someone wrapped him up. Obviously they cleaned him up with one of the many, many bloody towels laying around the room. His cleanliness is hardly evidence.
  • If Lyanna didn't birth him, who did? One of the nurses standing there? 99.99 percent of women can't stand up for hours after they give birth. Is there some random postpartum woman hiding deep within the TOJ?
  • But, no, you think the child is Rhaegar and Elia's. So where is Elia? When did she give birth? Having Rhaenys almost killed her, and after Aegon the Maesters aid she wouldn't have any more children. Rhaegar left Elia at Dragonstone and ran off with Lyanna, then Elia was a prisoner at KL. When would Rhaegar have impregnated her? Wouldn't someone have noticed that she was pregnant? The baby at the TOJ can't be Aegon. Aegon would be about 18 months old by then.So I just don't get that.How did she get back to KL to be raped and murdered. It's not Elia's baby. For a hundred reasons.
  • JonCon isn't in the show, and I don't think he will be. So whatever he knew/saw/says/does doesn't really matter.
  • In the scene, there's a blanket or something over Lyanna's stomach. Possibly covering up the massively botched C section performed with a dagger? That would explain the blood everywhere. Come on, man. She had a baby.
  • But let's just say that someone stabbed Lyanna. Who? Why? Why would nurses be attending her, and Kingsguard protecting her, just so she could die slowly? The only person/people who would want her dead would be Elia or the Martells. But again, Kingsguard. I don't see how that could happen. Rhaegar left her there with help and protection so she could birth their child. Unless the Kingsguard killed her, which WHY, and wouldn't she say ARTHUR DAYNE STABBED ME A LOT AND FORCED ME TO GIVE YOU THIS BABY?
  • If the baby wasn't Lyanna's, why was she so concerned about his safety? Why would she burden Ned with him if he wasn't half Stark? Why would Robert be so enraged if he wasn't hers? I guess Robert would want to murder any Targaryen, but he would want to super-kill that one.
  • If the dragon has three heads, and they are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion, then they all share the special distinction of killing their mothers during birth. Yes, including Jon, son of Lyanna.
  • If anything, Rhaegar may not be the father. Aerys may be the father of all three of them.
  • But let's just say it is Rhaegar, because it is, and talk about your tagline: "No matter how many times you say it, bastards can't inherit the Iron Throne in Westeros." IF Rhaegar married Lyanna, which is possible since he's a Targ, Jon isn't a bastard. Especially if he was born after Elia died. And 2 bastards have already inherited the Iron Throne. And I don't think that the IT is Jon's ambition or destiny anyway.

I respect your dedication to your theory, or rather your dogged disbelief in the R+L=J theory, but it's just really hard to justify. Like, damn near impossible to explain.

You are making a fundamental mistake in your analysis. This isn't science, this is a mystery. You should expect the evidence to be carefully crafted to mislead. so saying that 'it could match our pet theory' isn't at all convincing when the producers know about that theory and are deliberately misleading people as well as GRRM.

Does that look like a newborn to you? It looks older to me.  Quite a few weeks old. And you can't rely on book timelines to tell you anything.

Face it, nothing in the show gave us any information we didn't have from the fever dream.

The timeline I think happens in the books is that AA is born to Elia on Dragonstone just before she travels to KL with the other two children. Lyanna is entrusted with the safety of the child which is disguised to look Stark using blood magic so that Lyanna could be the mother. She is to take the child to Dorne. Ned catches up with them at the ToJ. 

She stabs herself to make the blood magic permanent after hearing of the murder of Elia and the other two children. Like Brienne, she has sworn to protect another's children.

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Thoughts while watching:

 - On a purely visceral level, this was the sort of enjoyable thrill that "Battle of the Bastards" should have been. There's been more one distance in this show where a good moment that was poorly set up by weak material, is so good that I can divorce that moment from its weak surroundings, imagine that the lead-up to said moment matched the books more closely (or was at least more successfully adapted), and enjoy it.

And there were a lot of good moments in this finale. The destruction of the sept and Tommen's suicide was very well done. Pycelle's murder was superbly staged. The second piece of the ToJ was much improved on the first. The second crowning of a King in the North was excellent. I loved seeing Arya finish off a Frey. Combine that with the fact that this is the only episode this season I was able to watch with my best friends, and I quite enjoyed myself.

That said...

 - I can still recognize the flaws, and the "Inside the Episode" this week not only made them more obvious, but took away from my enjoyment after the fact. The biggest flaw is Sansa's "distrust" of Jon. No satisfying or compelling reason has ever been offered up for this distrust, D&D have never given a coherent argument for that plotline, this episode starts the Northern storyline by having Sansa admit that she was wrong to keep the Vale knights from Jon (acknowledging the foolishness of the plot point without offering any justification for it)...and, according to all the behind-the-scenes information that's been released, this is something that they're planning to double down on next season. A terrible decision IMO, and one poorly supported by what we actually see in the show: Sansa argues with Jon that he should be the new lord of Winterfell, proudly denies Littlefinger his mental picture, and gives supportive smiles as Jon is elected king. I'm supposed to infer that she has a problem with his ascension based on all this? More to the point that all the actors threw out in the BTS material - I'm supposed to believe that Jon would realize she might have a problem based on all this? It's just a lame idea further botched by lousy execution, and I'm frankly dreading where they go with it next season.

 - Arya killing Walder was nice, but it isn't anywhere near as compelling as the Frey Pies from ADwD, and frankly, nothing they did with the Northern lords, or the Freys, or the Blackfish, or anything connected to the RW matched its source material. My issue is not so much that things were changed (though, of all the things from AFfC/ADwD, these elements were the ones I personally would have stuck closest to Martin on) as that what they came up with often felt lazy or unsupported. How did Arya get over to Westeros so fast? How did she know the Freys were gathered for a celebration? How'd she get in to the Twins, especially when Walder even recognizes that she isn't part of his household? Why doesn't she try and take out Jaimie while she's at it? So many of the Northern houses sat everything (even the Winterfell Wedding) out, and now they're involved again, without consequence - why? It's just sloppy writing.

 - Dany and Dorne working together. Means more of the Sand Snakes and what's-her-name next season. F*ck.

 - Sam really accomplished a lot this season, didn't he?

Overall: this season is an improvement on the last, but only marginally. Nothing was as toxic as Dorne was to Season 5, but this season suffered more from concepts that started strong and, more often than not, petered out (Jon's resurrection and conflict with Ramsay a prime example). For the year where we were supposedly meant to be off-book, a good chunk of the season was made up of poorly adapted Book 5 material. It often left me feeling hollow, only occasionally matched the heights of earlier seasons, and has left me feeling very doubtful about the future of the show.

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I'm probably not saying anything new here, but there are a number of thoughts about the episode I want to say.

The little birds stabbing Pycelle; this was definitely fan service to include one last dramatic scene from the books already published. Surprised they changed it up. Instead of Varys doing the kill, it's Qyburn and instead of both Kevan Lannister and Maester Pycelle getting stabbed, it's just Pycelle while Kevan get's killed in the explosion of the Sept. I do wonder why they changed it up, but I'm glad they finally finished the book material this season. 

Cersei becoming queen; with so many major characters from Kings Landing being killed off, she is increasingly isolated. By eliminating the Faith Militant, the Tyrells and even her own uncle, she creates more enemies than she takes out. People outside Kings Landing throughout the South will want revenge or to fill the gigantic power vaccum. The irony is she did not want to be queen but had to because she had to pay the final price for her scheming when Tommen jumped out the window.

I currently have no political cause to root for in the show. I'll only support the Starks again when Sansa has freed them from Littlefinger's influence. I don't support Daenerys either because she seeks to undo Robert's Rebellion but offers no clear alternative on a better government. She may be a good ruler, but will not 'break the wheel' as she says. The only thimble of hope I have within the show is to have the character I can most relate to: Sam to have a happy ending.

Finally, R+L=J. I'm now 99% certain of it. The 1% of doubt I have is the fact that the show did not explicitly reveal that Jon is Raegar's son. Only Lyanna's. I know I'll have people throw rocks at me for that, but there you go. Again, I'm very certain that the theory is true, but I think it's still slightly ambiguous. 

Edited by Ordos

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3 hours ago, hallam said:

You are making a fundamental mistake in your analysis. This isn't science, this is a mystery. You should expect the evidence to be carefully crafted to mislead. so saying that 'it could match our pet theory' isn't at all convincing when the producers know about that theory and are deliberately misleading people as well as GRRM.

Does that look like a newborn to you? It looks older to me.  Quite a few weeks old. And you can't rely on book timelines to tell you anything.

Face it, nothing in the show gave us any information we didn't have from the fever dream.

The timeline I think happens in the books is that AA is born to Elia on Dragonstone just before she travels to KL with the other two children. Lyanna is entrusted with the safety of the child which is disguised to look Stark using blood magic so that Lyanna could be the mother. She is to take the child to Dorne. Ned catches up with them at the ToJ. 

She stabs herself to make the blood magic permanent after hearing of the murder of Elia and the other two children. Like Brienne, she has sworn to protect another's children.


There is a women bloodied in bed and midwife comes and hands Ned a new born baby.
Why would Lyanna care about some random baby that they would have had to kidnap from Elia Martell and ran away together with it. Why? Rhaegar left his wife and children behind and started a war because of Lyanna, putting their lives at risk, why would he take his newborn baby from his previous marriage with him on a running away together whirlwind love affair? 
And if it was Elia's baby in your theory I'm pretty sure everyone would have seen that Elia was pregnant, she was married to Rhaegar had no reason to hide it for 9 months "just in case something would happen once it was born". 

Someone came in stabbed her and ran off? For what reason? Left the baby, left the midwife, mind you who was calm not as of someone just came through to murder everyone, if she was stabbed why is no one helping her? Why is she still in bed in the middle of the day? Wouldn't Ned have seen someone run off if someone had just stabbed her? Wouldn't the midwife be frantic and tell him she'd just been stabbed? 

It's Lyanna's baby they made it so obvious without showing the head crowning.
She just had a baby and there was  complications and she was hemorrhaging (losing massive amounts of blood), something that is quite common during childbirth especially in a time without the technology it was the leading causes of maternal death. 

I didn't think it was possible to interpret that scene any differently. 

Edited by FireWinds

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4 hours ago, hallam said:

She stabs herself to make the blood magic permanent after hearing of the murder of Elia and the other two children. 

In case anyone was wondering what constitutes tinfoil...  "Of course she stabbed herself because my theory requires it".

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4 hours ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

That is not what infuriated her regarding Jon... it was definitely the 'her husband fucked someone else' thing. 

Which his physical characteristics were a constant reminder of...

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2 hours ago, FireWinds said:

 


There is a women bloodied in bed and midwife comes and hands Ned a new born baby.
Why would Lyanna care about some random baby that they would have had to kidnap from Elia Martell and ran away together with it. Why? Rhaegar left his wife and children behind and started a war because of Lyanna, putting their lives at risk, why would he take his newborn baby from his previous marriage with him on a running away together whirlwind love affair? 
And if it was Elia's baby in your theory I'm pretty sure everyone would have seen that Elia was pregnant, she was married to Rhaegar had no reason to hide it for 9 months "just in case something would happen once it was born". 

Someone came in stabbed her and ran off? For what reason? Left the baby, left the midwife, mind you who was calm not as of someone just came through to murder everyone, if she was stabbed why is no one helping her? Why is she still in bed in the middle of the day? Wouldn't Ned have seen someone run off if someone had just stabbed her? Wouldn't the midwife be frantic and tell him she'd just been stabbed? 

It's Lyanna's baby they made it so obvious without showing the head crowning.
She just had a baby and there was  complications and she was hemorrhaging (losing massive amounts of blood), something that is quite common during childbirth especially in a time without the technology it was the leading causes of maternal death. 

I didn't think it was possible to interpret that scene any differently. 

Exactly. I mean, she's in a shift and seems to have rudimentary wrappings to cover the wound. Everyone has a demeanor of "we had to save the baby".

 

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9 hours ago, hallam said:

 

Jon is only the legitimate heir if he is Rheagar's and Elia's son. This is so obvious that there has to be some misdirection. Rheagar conceals the birth of the third son because he fears Aerys will kill him because of the three dragons prophecy.

It has nothing to do with being the heir and everything to do with fulfilling the prophesy. Rheagar was obsessed with it.

I really don't see how anyone can believe Lyanna is not the mother.  There are no other options there.

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6 hours ago, hallam said:

Does that look like a newborn to you? It looks older to me.  Quite a few weeks old. And you can't rely on book timelines to tell you anything.

Face it, nothing in the show gave us any information we didn't have from the fever dream.

Hardly the first TV show to use an older baby to play the role of a newborn. In addition to not having a bloody baby during birthing scenes...

 

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6 hours ago, Arya Gendry said:

 

  • If the dragon has three heads, and they are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion, then they all share the special distinction of killing their mothers during birth. Yes, including Jon, son of Lyanna.

Wow. I never realized that one. Great catch. Years later and I'm still learning something new. 

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