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Just now, JMJ said:

Another way to put it is that in their world (Planetos), their "laws of nature" are such that certain natural phenomenon allow for the ability to see the future, see the past, etc. Various religions have developed to explain these otherwise difficult to explain phenomenon, but in the end, they can be explained by their laws of nature. It's certainly possible the followers of R'hllor tend towards being baddies, but that may or may not be inherent to their "fire network".

Part of me still thinks that Rhllor is tied, somehow, to the doom of Valeria, and is the real danger. 

Whatever power lurks behind the flames has concluded that the Others and the greenseers are on the same side.  

Is it because they are on the same side, or because they both oppose Rhllor independently?

maybe there is no black and white with these supernatural forces either.  Martin has said in the past that the trope of the dark evil army has damaged the fantasy genre.  Seems odd he would then use it. 

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2 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Part of me still thinks that Rhllor is tied, somehow, to the doom of Valeria, and is the real danger. 

Whatever power lurks behind the flames has concluded that the Others and the greenseers are on the same side.  

Is it because they are on the same side, or because they both oppose Rhllor independently?

maybe there is no black and white with these supernatural forces either.  Martin has said in the past that the trope of the dark evil army has damaged the fantasy genre.  Seems odd he would then use it. 

Yes, I would tend to agree. Other than creating an army of the undead (yes, that's overall not a positive), what do we know about the Others that make us sure they are evil? We found out this season that they apparently were created as weapons against humans by the COTF, but is their nature evil? Given GRRM's philosophy, it's probably not black and white, but to use the overused trope, they are some shade of grey.

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On 6/29/2016 at 4:30 PM, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

One other random thought.  I understand why Olenna wants revenge against Cersei, but...she struck Cersei first by killing Joff.

Really, one could say that she set events in motion that cost her her entire house.  

Same can definitely be said for Cersei. There are many things she shouldn't have done. She lost all three children and much of it was due to her emotions, thirst for power, and like you said paranoia. Tywin never understood her disdain for Margaery or the Tyrell's either and knew they had to maintain alliances. She f'ed everything up royally and serious issues always seemed to come to pass when Jaime left and she heeded nobody's advisement but her own. Like Tywin said, a wise ruler seeks advice. Only, you can say a wise ruler needs resolves as well to not be pushed around like Tommen.

The witch may have told her what needed to be told in order to set tragic events in motion. Although, if true, the young more beautiful woman who will take power and King's Landing from her is actually Dany, not Margaery.

For a woman who so desperately loves her children, she seemed to really grow cold and maybe desensitized. She destroyed the scept which was where all her children were laid to rest. She didn't seem to give two figs about Tommen's death and was dressed for her coronation. At the beginning, I was thinking, is she dressing for a funeral?? It was a huge funeral! Why the garments and preparation when she wasn't planning to attend the trial? 

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Edited by Jon and Dany Targaryen

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17 hours ago, Jon and Dany Targaryen said:

Same can definitely be said for Cersei. There are many things she shouldn't have done. She lost all three children and much of it was due to her emotions, thirst for power, and like you said paranoia. Tywin never understood her disdain for Margaery or the Tyrell's either and knew they had to maintain alliances. She f'ed everything up royally and serious issues always seemed to come to pass when Jaime left and she heeded nobody's advisement but her own. Like Tywin said, a wise ruler seeks advice. Only, you can say a wise ruler needs resolves as well to not be pushed around like Tommen.

The witch may have told her what needed to be told in order to set tragic events in motion. Although, if true, the young more beautiful woman who will take power and King's Landing from her is actually Dany, not Margaery.

For a woman who so desperately loves her children, she seemed to really grow cold and maybe desensitized. She destroyed the scept which was where all her children were laid to rest. She didn't seem to give two figs about Tommen's death and was dressed for her coronation. At the beginning, I was thinking, is she dressing for a funeral?? It was a huge funeral! Why the garments and preparation when she wasn't planning to attend the trial? 

Really I just thought it was interesting that Olenna started the killing, Not the Mad Queen.  I am not comparing the two.  I really like QoT (show and books) and hate Cersei.  The only time I have only ever been on Cersei's side was against the High Sh!tbird. 

It is well known that Cersei's has a talent for acquiring power but no ability to wield it.  

The Queen of thorns is masterful but that doesn't change the fact that her preemptive strike against Joff came to nothing(show, we don't know what will happen in the books).

I think that show Cersei is completely mad now.  I don't think her reactions are in any way indicative of her feelings for her children.  I think she is completely unhinged.  

In a way, I almost think they are letting her come completely unglued so that when the Valonquar (JL or TL) does her in, it will be an act of mercy.  I know Tyrion hates her but he is not a monster.  In the end I think either brother will kill her with a heavy heart.    

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13 hours ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

Really I just thought it was interesting that Olenna started the killing, Not the Mad Queen.  I am not comparing the two.  I really like QoT (show and books) and hate Cersei.  The only time I have only ever been on Cersei's side was against the High Sh!tbird. 

It is well known that Cersei's has a talent for acquiring power but no ability to wield it.  

The Queen of thorns is masterful but that doesn't change the fact that her preemptive strike against Joff came to nothing(show, we don't know what will happen in the books).. 

Olenna killed Joff when neither Cersei nor Joff had done anything to her family. Ellaria killed Myrcella when neither Cersei nor Myrcella had done anything to her family. Now they are complaining about retaliation?  Cersei is clearly headed for a justified death, but I find both Ellaria and Olenna to be very hypocritical. I hope they both go before her.

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2 minutes ago, nara said:

Olenna killed Joff when neither Cersei nor Joff had done anything to her family. Ellaria killed Myrcella when neither Cersei nor Myrcella had done anything to her family. Now they are complaining about retaliation?  Cersei is clearly headed for a justified death, but I find both Ellaria and Olenna to be very hypocritical. I hope they both go before her.

True.

Especially in the case of Ellaria and the Sand Snakes.  Oberyn was not killed by the Lannisters.  He is dead because he decided to go into Batman villain mode and beat around the bush when he should have killed the Mountain and been done with it.  Killing Myrcella was unjustified cold blooded murder.  Joff was cold-blooded murder too, but he was such a sh!t that nobody weeps for him.  

Team Dany is not as "unsullied" as it used to be.  In the books the Dornish plot and motivations are different and make more sense.  

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11 hours ago, nara said:

Olenna killed Joff when neither Cersei nor Joff had done anything to her family. Ellaria killed Myrcella when neither Cersei nor Myrcella had done anything to her family. Now they are complaining about retaliation?  Cersei is clearly headed for a justified death, but I find both Ellaria and Olenna to be very hypocritical. I hope they both go before her.

They didn't make it clear in the show. The hatred of the lannisters developed from the death of Elia and her children. Oberyn specifically went to KL in order to avenge her death and then was killed himself. Dorne has a long standing hatred for the lannisters and have a long history of Targ blood. Doran refused to act fast enough and Ellaria has now taken the mantle upon herself. They have thirsted for war for a long time. 

Edited by Stannis Lives

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Apologies if this has been brought up but I've had a thought about the Cersei/Jaime deaths and couldn't find any other relevant threads.

Obviously Brans visions are now confirmed as a mix of both past and future. The wildfyre at KL is proof of this. 

What if the shadows on the wall vision of 'Jaime killing the Mad King' is actually Jaime killing Cersei in the future? Or better yet, Cersei killing Jaime?

Given the prophecy so far coming true and Cersei's mental state deteriorating I think she could try and kill both brothers (Tyrions en route to KL with Dany), in order to halt the Valonqar part of the prophecy prior to its reckoning. 

 

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On 6/26/2016 at 11:53 PM, tormond said:

Who was the lord who spoke complaining about Vale siding with the wildlings? Was that lord royce of the vale?. I expected better from him if he was

It was Lord Royce.  Don't forget that his son was a member of the Nights Watch and died North of the Wall in the Pilot.  He's probably not a big fan of Wildlings.

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On 6/27/2016 at 2:05 AM, Mark Rumler said:

Holy crap... so Jon Snow was the "Prince that was promised" due to Ned accepting the promise... mind blown.

I can't believe I've never made that connection.  I accepted who Jon really was years ago too, it just never dawned on me.

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On 7/1/2016 at 11:01 AM, JMJ said:

Another lingering, random question. We are probably all hoping the show never sets foot in Meereen or Slavers' Dragon Bay. If so, what was the point of introducing Kinvara? Just to rattle Varys for 2 minutes? For that matter, how do they plan to tie up the Essos stories in the show? Are we going to get scenes of Daario ruling Meereen? Or do we just get a few random throwaway lines from someone about the goings-on there? 

Well the faith of the seven is extinct at this point in KL and it seems that the Red God is on the rise. It seems very likely that the evil Red God and the evil White Walkers are the Ice and Fire. So we will probably find out a bit more about them both.

Kinvara is quite likely travelling with the Armada leaving her minions in Meereen to pacify it. If so, the Red Woman probably dies soon. Note we are told that Mel isn't as good at being a Red priestess.

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On 05/07/2016 at 1:53 AM, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

 In a way, I almost think they are letting her come completely unglued so that when the Valonquar (JL or TL) does her in, it will be an act of mercy.  I know Tyrion hates her but he is not a monster.  In the end I think either brother will kill her with a heavy heart.    

That would be an interesting approach. From the valonqar's perspective it would perhaps be out of revenge, but maybe at that point Cersei herself would see it as a gift in the form of death. She has nothing to live for at this point, not even the IT. In that scene in the throne room, she didn't look satisfied or pleased with the outcome. It seemed to me that she picked up the crown because it was the only thing she could do. She couldn't go back so she has to force her way forward. She isn't quite ready to just drop it all, and even if she was, it's not in her nature to give up even if she wanted to (and I think a small part of her does want it at this point). She needs someone else (=Jaime) to take her down eventually and although she will resist, it will be a relief to her in the end. At least that's how I see it.

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1 hour ago, abouththeotherknight said:

Doesn't Margery offer Wyllis to Sansa in the tv show too?

He doesn't exists on TV. In the show, Mace only has two kids.

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13 hours ago, Aderyn said:

That would be an interesting approach. From the valonqar's perspective it would perhaps be out of revenge, but maybe at that point Cersei herself would see it as a gift in the form of death. She has nothing to live for at this point, not even the IT. In that scene in the throne room, she didn't look satisfied or pleased with the outcome. It seemed to me that she picked up the crown because it was the only thing she could do. She couldn't go back so she has to force her way forward. She isn't quite ready to just drop it all, and even if she was, it's not in her nature to give up even if she wanted to (and I think a small part of her does want it at this point). She needs someone else (=Jaime) to take her down eventually and although she will resist, it will be a relief to her in the end. At least that's how I see it.

You make good points.  

Right now, all she has is spite. 

When she realizes that Dany is coming and the Tyrion is her hand, she will undoubtedly realize that her crusade/vendetta against Margery was stupid and useless.

She needed to get rid of the HS, but killing some much of the KL elite including Margery and her uncle Kevin, may push her a little closer to total madness.  She acts like she has zero conscience but I am not so sure.  

Guilt/responsibility for Tommen is going to hit her eventually. 

Anyway, Dany will give her a "purpose" again, but I think that by the time the end comes Cersei will be Mad King Arys come again.   

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On 6/27/2016 at 1:51 AM, Cunning Villain said:

I agree. The Pact of Ice and Fire will be made once again, and it will actually be fulfilled this time.

I think it will be an Oedipus type deal.  Jon & Dany will fall in love and then find out they are Auntie and Nephew....maybe Dany makes the sacrifice in the great battle, and once again Jon is forced to kill the woman he loves, this time to bring about lightbringer and defeat the Night's King.  Cut out that obsidian shard put into his heart by the COF.  Holy schnikeys....poor Jon....

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On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 8:41 AM, Juan_Snow said:

It was Lord Royce.  Don't forget that his son was a member of the Nights Watch and died North of the Wall in the Pilot.  He's probably not a big fan of Wildlings.

Actually the Lord Royce this season is Nestor Royce. Waymar Royce, the NW Ranger killed by Others, is the son of Bronze Yohn Royce.

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8 hours ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

You make good points.  

Right now, all she has is spite. 

When she realizes that Dany is coming and the Tyrion is her hand, she will undoubtedly realize that her crusade/vendetta against Margery was stupid and useless.

She needed to get rid of the HS, but killing some much of the KL elite including Margery and her uncle Kevin, may push her a little closer to total madness.  She acts like she has zero conscience but I am not so sure.  

Guilt/responsibility for Tommen is going to hit her eventually. 

Anyway, Dany will give her a "purpose" again, but I think that by the time the end comes Cersei will be Mad King Arys come again.   

Cersie made it clear

Anyone not a Lannister is an enemy. She has followed this belief from Season 1. She won't feel regret for killing a personal who was out to strip her from all her powers. She did not seem to feel guilt with the death of Tommen either as it seems she accepted his death much better than Joffrey or Marcela

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8 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

She did not seem to feel guilt with the death of Tommen either as it seems she accepted his death much better than Joffrey or Marcela

Personally I think that Cersei is in the early stages of a psychotic break.  We will see if reality and remorse creep back in.  

It very well may be that her moment of clarity comes just before her brother (whichever) has to put her down.  

Or it may never come.  I said that guilt is going to hit her.  I should have said it may hit her.  

Cersei may have decided that Tommen was a lost cause when he sided with Marjery and His High Sh!ttiness against her.  The "no trial by combat" proclamation was a gut punch.  You could see it.  

She tried to keep him out of the sept but maybe she didn't really give a fcuk anymore.  "Dummy wanna jump out a window...WGAS ! Jump."

Truthfully, I felt that way about Tommen, but I gave his mother more credit.  They have really buillt it up about how Cersei loves her children...

I would prefer for Cersei to be overwhelmed by Shame!  Shame! Shame! before she dies, but she is quite a piece of work. She may not be capable.  

On the other hand, I do not believe that the Valonquar will ultimately act out of anger or hatred or revenge.   I believe it will be a devastatingly hard choice for the greater good.  Love and pity and justice and maybe self-preservation.  But not malice.  

 IMHO. 

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3 hours ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

On the other hand, I do not believe that the Valonquar will ultimately act out of anger or hatred or revenge.   I believe it will be a devastatingly hard choice for the greater good.  Love and pity and justice and maybe self-preservation.  But not malice.  

 IMHO. 

Now I have this pictured scene filling my mind...

I'm picturing Jaime and Cersei in some dimly lit room, possibly her chambers. Jaime is dressed in his armour, the light from the candles reflecting on it. Cersei is dressed in a dark gown. They talk about Cersei's actions and decisions and Jaime is trying to find justification for them, but finds himself unable to. Jaime seems angry at first but as the scene progresses he turns increasingly sad, almost like he is starting to understand what needs to be done. When he grabs her throat, Cersei attempts to fight him furiously at first, but slowly her resistane grows weak, both because of the lack of oxygen and because she does it willingly. While Cersei gasps for the last bits of air, Jaime says with bitter sadness, "The things I do for love." As the scene closes, Rains of Castamere theme starts playing in the background.

Lol, maybe I'm calling D&D tomorrow.

Edited by Aderyn

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