How did marrying Sansa to Ramsay help Littlefinger achieve his 'one true goal'?

[Epyon]

I think it actually makes decent sense, within the context of LF.

Right now the Lannisters are the dominant force in Westeros, having crushed the North/Stormlands rebellions and being allied with the Tyrells.... The strongest house in the Riverlands (Frey) and the Strongest remaining house in the North (Bolton)

1. Lannisters are weakened by alienating Bolton-Lannister Alliance

So send Sansa to Boltons and tell Cersei...

2. Ideal scenario, he takes Winterfell, brings a decayed skull with red hair to Cersei and is ruler of the North to both the crown, AND up North since Sansa would have to hide herself publicly. He wins support of the Northerners via protecting Sansa and "restoring the Starks to Winterfell"... and  he essentially hijacks the Stark Legacy... (if you haven't noticed, LFs motives pretty thoroughly screw over the Arryns, Starks, and Tullys the most.... all three of which are houses he likely holds the biggest grudges against)

3. He also has a chance to win over Sansa here, in his mind... He brings the Vale, and heroically rescues her from the Boltons, and restores her family to Winterfell..... He might think she'd feel like she owed him for that.... and he has deniability that he knew about Ramsey being a psycho... after all he was merely giving her a chance to take back her legacy for herself when he gave her the choice, of marrying him. She choose it.

Hypothetical step 4 was then merely fanning the Tyrells against the Lannisters and letting them wipe each other out, which would leave him as the largest remaining power in Westeros..

And it wasn't just Jon being crowned that caused it to fall apart....... It's also the events in the South, which is why he declares for Sansa publically, as he really has no other choice.... Cersei lost King's Landing to the Faith, and lost all of the Lannister alliances regaining power in King's landing.... She's effectively useless to him now either way, and will be destined to fail...

I'd add that he clearly doesn't seem to have any clue that Daenarys is coming, let alone backed by Dorne, The Reach,  a chunk of the Iron Islands, and some dragons.... because I think he'd already be trying to get that marriage offer on the table (and be surprised by Tyrion and Varys at her side, no doubt), because she's got a better army than the rest of Westeros combined at this point.

[Tolsimir]

It didn't make any sense whatsoever.

First we have to remember that Sansa is the only reason the Vale army even supports LF. In season 4 there was this scene where they wanted to kill LF and Sansa had to save his ass. So immediately after LF went away with Sansa and news got out that she's married to the Boltons now, the Vale lords should have offed LF anyway. Basically Sansa gave LF control over the Vale, and yet he gave her away, which already made no sense at all. Nonsense nr. 1.

Next, if we somehow accept that the Vale lords were OK with giving away Sansa to her enemies, the plan still didn't make any sense. IF you will remember, Stannis was still alive at that time and LF knew he was marching to WF. So why not wait for Stannis to end his campaign before doing anyting? What if Stannis defeats the Boltons and takes Sansa for hmself? GJ LF, you just threw everything away you worked so hard for. Gee, it's almost as if he knew that Stannis will lose. Maybe he has D&D working as his spies. But yeah, nonsense nr. 2.

Nonsense nr. 3 follows when LF goes to visit Cersei. If LF wants Sansa for himself, then this made no sense, since allying with Cersei means Sansa has to die. One could say that he was just hedging his bets and that he doesn't care about Sansa at all, but this makes him look like an idiot again. Why risk so much when all it takes is a Bolton or Vale guy to inform Cersei that LF was the one who had Sansa and LF loses the Lannister alliance. Also the scene turned out to be completely pointless anyway, since the Lannisters just lost the Tyrells and LF will never have to debate between giving Sansa over or not. Oh and even if that were a possibility, why would the Vale Lords allow that? Again, a completely pointless and nonsensical scene.  

And lastly we have the Boltons themselves. The Boltons say they need Sansa in order to have a hold over the Northern Lords. Then Sansa escapes, so the Northern Lords should have no more qualms about uniting against the Boltons. Yet when the time comes to choose, every Lord chooses the Boltons anyway, making the whole marriage pointless in the first place. Nonsense nr. 4.

There's probably more, but I think anyone should see that the whole Sansa/LF plot of the last two seasons didn't make any sense at all.

[dornishdragon]

On 27/06/2016 at 5:07 AM, Bran Snow said:

His plan was to have Sansa being Warden of the North after taking care of the Boltons. That way he would have the North and the Vale behind him. With the rest of the country pretty much killing each other, he'd have a strong army to take the Iron Throne.

This. 

[AvengerofWinterfell]

well his plan was to use Sansa to get a foothold in the North.  The Boltons can prop her up as Ned Starks daughter and display her to the North, Cersei makes him Warden of the North as a result of Bolton betrayal, LF takes over after Bolton defeat and with Sansa in hand the Northern Lords are more likely to accept him.  His plan had 2 hiccups though, Ramsey being a psycho and Jon leaving the NW.  He couldnt have known that Jon would be stabbed, resurrected, and subsequently freed from his vows.  Jon gave the Northern Lords a commander to rally behind and someone with martial prowess as well as one who truly embraced Northern culture which was/is a huge problem for LF.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 6/27/2016 at 5:04 AM, HeroesAndVillains said:

Hmm. Maybe it was part of his do some moves that can even count against you to keep your enemies guessing thing?

Well, I never in books or show ever believed that "keep them guessing" thing.  It is true that it is hard to see through all LF's complex motivations but for instance merely confusing people wasn't why he got rid of Joffrey.  I am absolutely certain that he benefited from his death too in some way (although he had prospered under his reign), however, for one thing he keeps framing Tyrion time and time again.  The only explanation I have for this (got to be more than Tyrion being in the wrong place all the time and hence an easy target for LF to frame).  I have this crackpot theory that Tyrion has something big on Baelish and from the beginning of the series.  Certainly after he became his successor as Master of Coin so he needs him out of the way so getting his head chopped off for Joffrey's murder served this purpose.  Also of course, there is Sansa.  I can't remember exactly how Tywin found out about the Tyrells' plans for her but either way, he needed her free but incriminated (and then easy to dominate forever) by making her an accessory in this murder.  Also because of the Tyrell's involvement he has their secrets too.  Basically I think he is just building up power against anyone he thinks may be or may grow into becoming a threat.

Now, okay this plot re Sansa/Ramsay is a complete departure from the books but as the show goes I could venture to guess that he had made Sansa too potentially dangerous by letting her into the mystery of the Purple Wedding, also despite the fact that she lied to protect him, she knows how Lysa died... She needed her out of the way, although granted I don't think he wanted her killed or abused in such a horrible way.  He understimated Ramsay but he has made very fundamental mistakes with her.  Also I think he never expected Tyrion to survive and certainly not raise to power again (albeit on a different team).  I would be very worried if I were Petyr because I reckon the chickens are definitely going to come home to roost soon.  I reckon sometime in book 6 or beginning or 7...

[MoreOrLess]

 

5 hours ago, Tolsimir said:

It didn't make any sense whatsoever.

First we have to remember that Sansa is the only reason the Vale army even supports LF. In season 4 there was this scene where they wanted to kill LF and Sansa had to save his ass. So immediately after LF went away with Sansa and news got out that she's married to the Boltons now, the Vale lords should have offed LF anyway. Basically Sansa gave LF control over the Vale, and yet he gave her away, which already made no sense at all. Nonsense nr. 1.

Next, if we somehow accept that the Vale lords were OK with giving away Sansa to her enemies, the plan still didn't make any sense. IF you will remember, Stannis was still alive at that time and LF knew he was marching to WF. So why not wait for Stannis to end his campaign before doing anyting? What if Stannis defeats the Boltons and takes Sansa for hmself? GJ LF, you just threw everything away you worked so hard for. Gee, it's almost as if he knew that Stannis will lose. Maybe he has D&D working as his spies. But yeah, nonsense nr. 2.

Nonsense nr. 3 follows when LF goes to visit Cersei. If LF wants Sansa for himself, then this made no sense, since allying with Cersei means Sansa has to die. One could say that he was just hedging his bets and that he doesn't care about Sansa at all, but this makes him look like an idiot again. Why risk so much when all it takes is a Bolton or Vale guy to inform Cersei that LF was the one who had Sansa and LF loses the Lannister alliance. Also the scene turned out to be completely pointless anyway, since the Lannisters just lost the Tyrells and LF will never have to debate between giving Sansa over or not. Oh and even if that were a possibility, why would the Vale Lords allow that? Again, a completely pointless and nonsensical scene.  

And lastly we have the Boltons themselves. The Boltons say they need Sansa in order to have a hold over the Northern Lords. Then Sansa escapes, so the Northern Lords should have no more qualms about uniting against the Boltons. Yet when the time comes to choose, every Lord chooses the Boltons anyway, making the whole marriage pointless in the first place. Nonsense nr. 4.

There's probably more, but I think anyone should see that the whole Sansa/LF plot of the last two seasons didn't make any sense at all.

On the show Sansa's biggest use to LF in the Vale was exonerating him from killing Lysa which allowed him to gain control of Robin and thus the Vale forces. Earlier this season Royce clearly questions Sansa's marriage to the Boltons and doesn't seem to buy LF's excuse but because LF has Robins ear he can't do much about it and he obviously still does want to rescue Sansa for her own sake.

You could argue that LF could potentially use restoring Sansa to Winderfell as a motivation to get the Vale forces into the field but this has the disadvantage that he can't play politics in KL and will have to openly declare for a Stark/Vale alliance. Granted potentially marrying Sansa himself would mean he'd likely need to as well but that need not happen right away, he could fake Sansa's death and keep Cersei on side they reveal her only when his position is more established and maybe Cersei's undermined.

I would argue as well that its a stronger motivator to rescue Sansa than it is to send her home.

[KingInTheBay]

Littlefinger thought that Stannis would defeat Ramsay in a crippling battle for both armies. Then he would saunter north and liberate the north and Sansa from his crippled forces. He didnt figure on Stannis imploding his army. He wasnt about to wager his future on Bronze Yohn outwitting Ramsay in an even contest, so has to wait for another force to gather against the Boltons. So Sansa winds up being with Ramsay far longer than Petyr imagined

Clearly not his best plot, i think this is his arc. His schemes have become progressivly weaker as the seasons pass.

Consider is hold on the vale is based on sickly boy of 13, one who makes Tommen seem resolute and firm by comparison. I assume he's somewhere in a vale lords care- how he hasnt been upsurped is beyond me.

 That chaos LF craves, and has been making since episode one, is going to consume him. Expect Sansa to be the cataylst, and the one that ultimatly out schemes him.

[aryagonnakill#2]

There are 2 combining factors that make his plan logical to a degree.  First is that it is Robin not LF that controls the Vales armies, and 2nd is that the Vale is not as strong as the Reach and Westerlands and Freys and Boltons all put together, so he could not openly defy them yet.

By marrying Sansa to the Boltons and then informing Cersei of this, he gets the crowns approval to go north, and has a reason that Robin will agree to - rescuing Sansa.  As Lord Paramount of the Riverlands he could most likely find an excuse to get rid of the Freys, and then it's just the Lannister Tyrell alliance which LF knew Cersei would eventually destroy anyway, and he assisted in that destruction when he returned to KL by giving the faith his man whore who banged Loras.

[KingInTheBay]

Yes, i agree. It just puts to many factors in other hands to be solid, it is logical and could have worked. When Stannis failed to inflict any meaningful damage to the Bolton forces or the walls of Winterfell, he gutted it.

[xjlxking]

By marrying Sansa to Bolton, the north declares a war against the crown. LF persuades the vale to save Sansa but also tells Cersie he will crush he north for rebelling against the crown. Then unit the two realms with Tyrells and Dorne to attack kings landing

 

just like hat he becomes king

[Rory Snow]

Even master manipulators make bad plans and fail from time to time. Baelish motivation was sound, he was clearly try to create instability throughout the 7 kingdoms and thereby grab a larger share of the control / power for himself, and if he had to sacrifice Sansa along the way, so be it. His mistake is that his plan counted on too many elements that LF had no control over. Some things he misjudged, others he could not possibly foresee.

He needed a bloody Stannis / Bolton battle, but how could he know Stannis would burn his daughter at the stake causing half his army to run and thereby guaranteeing a walkover Bolton victory. There's also no way he could anticipate Jon's Lazarus impression, release from the Night's Watch and resulting march on Winterfell with 2000 wildings and a giant. Nobody could anticipate Jon going from the Night's Watch to being King in the North. Even the death of Roose Bolton, it wasn't shocking with a guy like Ramsay but it certainly wasn't something LF could plan for.

As for Sansa's abuse, remember, Roose was married to Walda Frey, there was never any indication the she was mistreated in any way by him. The Bolton's are horrible to their enemies, with the flaying and all, but indications were that at least Roose's wife was treated well. So why would LF assume Ramsay would treat Sansa the way he did. It would make some sense that while Roose is around, LF might feel Sansa would be at least somewhat protected. Obviously LF severely misjudged this situation.

Anything that could go wrong, did. And things that weren't supposed to be possible worked against him as well. Too many moving parts, too many things out of his control. In the end, it was just a bad plan, they can't all be gems.

[Rhollo]

watsonian explanation:

"Chaos is a ladder"

It seems, LF just wants to have a finger in every pie, without only vague ideas how that could work out in his favor. And imho he is incredibly lucky to still have his head with all the double-crossing he did since the Sansa marriage.

 

doylist explanation:

It would have made much more sense for LF and Sansa to just wait in the Vale at least until the Bolton vs. Stannis conflict is resolved, and only then either challenge or side with the victor. But that would have meant meager storylines for two major characters, so the showrunners made them jump ahead.

[RedShirt47]

On 27/06/2016 at 5:10 AM, fightwookies said:

He married Sansa to Ramsay, then told Cersei that the boltons betrayed her by the marriage. Cersei promised him warden of the north if he could get the Knights of the vale to destroy the boltons. Jon becoming KitN wasn't part of his plan

This.

He thought he'd either be Warden of the North or maybe Sansa. Either way he would have the North on his side.

Also it mobilised the Vale forces and put them in the field. Until then they had been holed up in The Vale doing nothing. Now he is a military power (even if only through Robin).

[Jon and Dany Targaryen]

On 6/26/2016 at 7:48 PM, Fox of House McCloud said:

He gained nothing from his brief "alliance" with the Boltons. Even though he managed to get Cersei's approval to attack the Bolton's and become Warden of the North (by marrying Sansa to Ramsay, then using it as proof of the Bolton's betraying the crown), that doesn't count for anything when he immediately declares for Sansa anyways. Was there any point to it at all, or was it just nonsense thrown together by the showrunners to try to hit a book plotline?

He used the Sansa/Ramsey union as a ploy to turn the Lannisters against the Boltons so that they would not help against Stannis' fleet. Remember when he told Cersei to let the Boltons and Stannis battle it out and pick up the scraps later. He thought Stannis would succeed but unfortunately was incorrect. He didn't plan the crazy red woman would sacrifice a child to fulfill some godly plan. The goal was to destroy them from within to avenge what they did to Cat and gain power as hopefully warden of the North but somehow with Sansa imo. The Lannisters would be the next on his list eventually. Now that the Boltons and Stannis are gone, he only has to worry about the Lannisters (or so he thinks). With the North united with the Eyrie like he told Roose, they could overthrow the greatest of dynasties.

[Jon and Dany Targaryen]

On 7/3/2016 at 7:12 AM, Morgana Lannister said:

 

What he gained was a secret relationship with the Tyrells that may one day come in handy... plus like he stated, the king was not a reliable ally and was prone to unpredictability. He also tormented Sansa and was King during the pact made with the Freys for the bloody Red Wedding. One thing he gained was Cersei believing Sansa was an enemy of the crown and therefore used that as a ploy to turn them against the Boltons. Divide and conquer. 

As for LF knowing about Ramsey, that was established during his discussion with Roose where he admits little is known about his son. Roose said cause he was just recently legitimized.

[Jon and Dany Targaryen]

On 7/3/2016 at 2:15 AM, Epyon said:

 

I'd add that he clearly doesn't seem to have any clue that Daenarys is coming, let alone backed by Dorne, The Reach,  a chunk of the Iron Islands, and some dragons.... because I think he'd already be trying to get that marriage offer on the table (and be surprised by Tyrion and Varys at her side, no doubt), because she's got a better army than the rest of Westeros combined at this point.

Few seem to know. The new hand seems to receive his whispers from just a group of local children whereas Varys had "birds" all over westeros and essos. 

I remember also when Tywin discussed Daenerys's dragons to Geoffrey with certainty that they were not the beasts of the past and would never be a threat.. I find it hilarious that Varys was likely feeding him the false information. 

[The Knight in Motley]

The writers wanted the scene where Ramsey rapes Stansa, and knew the majority of the show audience wouldn't care about the details as long as they get a dose of torture porn.

There isn't any sense to be made out of LF's plan, because it never mattered if it did.  There is more thought into the plot in this thread than ever happened in the writing room.

Every rationale I've seen comes up to one brick wall or another.

 

[Christi84]

It doesnt makes sense because its a D&D plot and they suck. He couldve married her to Robin when the time came to secure The Vale through her and then take that whole army to WF (kinda getting that vibe in the books most likely) Its not like Cersei can send an army to The Vale to get her, its essentially an impenetrable fortress.

Perhaps he did it to show the Boltons are once again rebellious to the crown so hes got 'legal' standing to go and finds a redheaded whore to use as Sansa's head to send to Cersei.

[permaximum]

His plan was almost a perfect plan. But unnatural incidents destroyed it.

1. Give Sansa to Boltons and make them enemies of the crown to persuade the Vale army and move them freely in the same time. Check

2. Make an alliance with Cersei in case things go bad with Sansa and eventually become warden of the North. Check.

3. If things go well for Stannis, marry the wardeness of the North and unite the realms of the Vale and the North. Check.

4. If things go well for Boltons, rescue Sansa from the wounded murderers of her family and declare her the Queen in the North and marry a grareful Sansa. Check.

But he didn't expect the burning of Shireen and the crippling of Stannis' army. Also, he didn't expect Jon Snow's resurrection and thus his decision to leave the Night's Watch and make war upon the Boltons which was fueled by Sansa whom LF also didn't expect to leave WF because he thought Roose would not hurt the key to the North.

However, Aidan Gillen in one of his interviews said Littlefinger got excited in the king in the North scene. Apperantly, such a big event with uncertainty and chaos was the cause of it and he loved the thrill that brang.

So I believe in such a chaotic situation, he saw a gain and I think that gain was the chance to manipulate Sansa again after he seemingly failed to do that as much as he wanted in the godswood scene.

In the next season Baelish will be able to use Sansa again in his plans.

 

[NutBurz]

31 minutes ago, permaximum said:

So I believe in such a chaotic situation, he saw a gain and I think that gain was the chance to manipulate Sansa again after he seemingly failed to do that as much as he wanted in the godswood scene.

Agreed about the whole thing, with special emphasis on this seemingly. I personally don´t think he failed in anything at all.

Sansa becoming Lady of Winterfell still had most of the same issues after their taking it as it had before. Even if she´s not either Lannister or Bolton, her children will still bear their father´s last name which will most likely not be Stark. Sure, rules can be broken, but that also applies to Jon Snow.

The problems they had with Jon were mostly born out of trust. They didn´t trust his army. They didn´t trust him more than they trusted his defeat. None of the scenes where people denied them gave any indication that didn´t believe him to deserve Winterfell, only that he couldn´t take it and they couldn´t help him. After he managed to beat every odd, prove them wrong and forgive them, there´s little left to distrust.

 

My point here is that if Sansa ever got her hopes up of becoming lady of Winterfell, that was only because of LF´s speech in her ears. I don´t think he ever really believed they could declare for her, not do I think he´d want that (although he´d profit from it, curiously or not). All he wanted was to plant the idea and put her in a position of "control" (denying him), so that when the obvious thing happened, her disappointment would be that much larger.

Before anyone laughs about how he would never be denied on purpose, that he just has a weak spot for Sansa and etc, just think about this exchange-

1-What do you want?

2-The Iron Throne...and you

Does it really look like 2 is even trying for a romantic ending? That´s not being realistic, that´s being an asshole, and he´s far too clever not to realise the difference. At the very least he must have learned somthing when he was too eager with Catelyn.