Aejon Targaryen???

[gregg22]

One thing is for certain.. she said "his name is.." So that settles something for all those that believe the baby was Dany.

I think it is really, really awesome how they are teasing his true name like this. Very crafty.

Also, was Bran in Jon's head a that moment of the vision? Jon was certainly daydreaming when they cut to him. Its interesting that Bran has the vision just as Jon is named King in the North.

[baxter]

As if Aejon is really any dumber than Aegon or Aemon.  

ned probably wanted to minimize the lie as much as possible. He dropped the Ae. 

 

[Dorian Martell]

7 minutes ago, Masha said:

A bit about genetics. 

If Lyanna hair dark brown (not even black) and Rhaegar's gold/silver, how come Jon's are a jet black?

Also, that baby was blond, I have seen blond babies grow up to have mid-brown hair in adulthood but never jet black.

Casting. that is how 

[darksellsword]

I think everyone is way off the mark I've listened to it dozens of times now and to my ear she is saying , he is Rhaegars son and then she says clearly that Robert will kill him

[Bazil]

I was thinking maybe Aerion based on the lip movement.  It's definitly a long A followed by an R or a W.

[TheOtherRedWoman]

10 hours ago, blckp said:

Aemeon sand or water

There is no way he is an actual bastard.

Why would 3 kingsguard be there to protect Rhaegars mistress and bastard son? It makes no sense at all.

[Drogo_1]

I'm Pretty sure she said Azor Ahai. All this time no one is mentioning that the tower of joy scene, Ned approaches Lyanna carrying Dawn which is covered in blood. The camera stays focused on the sword for a short period of time. This basically implies Jon in Azor Ahai. How's the saying go? Born under a bleeding star, amidst salt and smoke..... Um Dawn was forged from a fallen star...

[MtnLion]

10 hours ago, blckp said:

Aemeon sand or water

The only logical explanation for three (or in the case of the screenplay, two) Kingsguard to be at the tower, and die protecting it, is to protect a legitimate Targaryen heir.  They would not do it on Rhaegar's orders, after he is dead and the war is lost.  They would not do it for Lyanna, who is dying.  They would not do it for the servants at the tower.  (I noted two, one with braided hair . . . ?)  Ned thinks very highly of these three Kingsguard, affording them at least the same honors as he gives his men, when building the cairns.  But, years later, their images are burned into Ned's memory, while his men's images have faded to a blur of fog.  It can only be because they were doing what they proclaimed, fulfilling their vow, to die for their king, if need be. 

[Cron]

28 minutes ago, baxter said:

As if Aejon is really any dumber than Aegon or Aemon.  

ned probably wanted to minimize the lie as much as possible. He dropped the Ae. 

 

I agree about Ned dropping the "Ae" to minimize it, as you say.

Additionally, "Aejon" would raise more suspicion with Robert.  It's easy to envision Robert asking Ned "Uhhh, hey, Ned, why'd you give your bastard son a Targaryen name??"

Also, as a happy coincidence, "Jon" happens to have been the name of their mutual (albeit temporary) foster father, Jon Arryn.

[Cron]

28 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

I think everyone is way off the mark I've listened to it dozens of times now and to my ear she is saying , he is Rhaegars son and then she says clearly that Robert will kill him

I've listened to it probably at least 8 or 9 times, at a loud volume, and to me it is crystal clear Lyanna says "His name is...," after which her voice drops to such a whisper I can't make out what she says.

[Winter_Is_Coming21]

I want Jon to be a STARK.. So my theory COULD BE biased somehow..

1. In books why is Ned constantly tormented by "Promise me, Ned", if he's kept that promise so perfectly for these many years?   I fail to understand this. My guess - He failed unknowingly only a few minutes before Lyanna asked him that promise. On show Lyanna says "...If Robert finds out he will kill him, you know he will... You have to protect him.. Promise me, Ned." I think here by 'him' she means Arthur Dayne. He+Howland Reed killed him below just minutes before! He simply won't tell her this tragic incident at her death-bed. That is why he is haunted by "Promise me, Ned" all the time.

2. This child Lyanna gave birth to in my opinion is Meera. http://awoiaf.westeros.org gives her birth year as 283 AC.  I don't have answers for following Questions though - Did Rhaegar as his best friend helped Arthur to run away with Lyanna? Is Lyanna's pregnancy why AD & other two KGs were there at TOJ? Why wouldn't Arthur tell Ned the whole thing before the TOJ fight even began? What is the colour of Arthur Dayne's eyes? Because Meera is definitely Green eyed & Lyanna was Grey.

3. Howland Reed took Meera with him to Greywater Watch & raised her as his daughter (he is in debt to Lyanna because Harrenhal tourney incident). Nobody can know a Kingsguard (that too an honourable knight like The Sword in The Morning) fathered a child! (Are they married? No idea!) It would be a disgrace to House Dayne & their honour.

4. Why is Ned so worried about honour of House Dayne? Ans. 1. Memory of Lyanna & her love interest 2. His own love interest!

5. Now we come to Ned's love interest. He & Ashara loved each other. Before Brandon Stark was killed Ned might have promised her a marriage & even gotten her pregnant. Their child is Jon & as per www.awoiaf.westeros.org his birth year is also 283 AC. My guess is that all these four; Stark & Dayne brother-sisters might have been close to each other/at same location right before Brandon & Rickard Stark's murders, & their love bloomed there. 

6. Now after Brandon's death as a law/tradition Ned has to marry Catlyn Tully for the honour of his house & House Tully. But what about Ashara, her child without a marriage? She couldn't bear her disgrace & a loss of Ned. Commits suicide. Ned had to take his+her child back home to protect the honour of Ashara & House Dayne. But why wouldn't he tell Cat about Jon after so many years? What about Wylla & other Dayne family members not knowing about Ashara's child? I have no answer.

7. His & Lyanna's relations with Arthur & Ashara quite explains why he had to ride to Starfall to return Dawn.

8. In books Ned is constantly feeling guilty about many 'lies' & 'failed promises'.. Above are some of them.  

9. Ned is a honourable guy. But bad circumstances (bad but non-political like Love & marriage) are making him protect the honour of not only house Stark but Dayne & Tully as well.

10. Reference to the Blue flower/rose growing from the chink of the ice wall - If i am not mistaken, the time-frame of this vision & the crossing of the Bran & co. is somewhat same. Can this be a reference to Meera instead of Jon?

What do you guys think? Please comment on this write-up. As i said, this can be totally biased view because i want Jon to be a Stark! Plus i am new to the books. It's just my first re-reading!! No offense intended to R+L=J staunch supporters & old readers!!

[Cron]

7 minutes ago, Winter_Is_Coming21 said:

I want Jon to be a STARK.. So my theory COULD BE biased somehow..

1. In books why is Ned constantly tormented by "Promise me, Ned", if he's kept that promise so perfectly for these many years?   I fail to understand this. My guess - He failed unknowingly only a few minutes before Lyanna asked him that promise. On show Lyanna says "...If Robert finds out he will kill him, you know he will... You have to protect him.. Promise me, Ned." I think here by 'him' she means Arthur Dayne. He+Howland Reed killed him below just minutes before! He simply won't tell her this tragic incident at her death-bed. That is why he is haunted by "Promise me, Ned" all the time.

2. This child Lyanna gave birth to in my opinion is Meera. http://awoiaf.westeros.org gives her birth year as 283 AC.  I don't have answers for following Questions though - Did Rhaegar as his best friend helped Arthur to run away with Lyanna? Is Lyanna's pregnancy why AD & other two KGs were there at TOJ? Why wouldn't Arthur tell Ned the whole thing before the TOJ fight even began? What is the colour of Arthur Dayne's eyes? Because Meera is definitely Green eyed & Lyanna was Grey.

3. Howland Reed took Meera with him to Greywater Watch & raised her as his daughter (he is in debt to Lyanna because Harrenhal tourney incident). Nobody can know a Kingsguard (that too an honourable knight like The Sword in The Morning) fathered a child! (Are they married? No idea!) It would be a disgrace to House Dayne & their honour.

4. Why is Ned so worried about honour of House Dayne? Ans. 1. Memory of Lyanna & her love interest 2. His own love interest!

5. Now we come to Ned's love interest. He & Ashara loved each other. Before Brandon Stark was killed Ned might have promised her a marriage & even gotten her pregnant. Their child is Jon & as per www.awoiaf.westeros.org his birth year is also 283 AC. My guess is that all these four; Stark & Dayne brother-sisters might have been close to each other/at same location right before Brandon & Rickard Stark's murders, & their love bloomed there. 

6. Now after Brandon's death as a law/tradition Ned has to marry Catlyn Tully for the honour of his house & House Tully. But what about Ashara, her child without a marriage? She couldn't bear her disgrace & a loss of Ned. Commits suicide. Ned had to take his+her child back home to protect the honour of Ashara & House Dayne. But why wouldn't he tell Cat about Jon after so many years? What about Wylla & other Dayne family members not knowing about Ashara's child? I have no answer.

7. His & Lyanna's relations with Arthur & Ashara quite explains why he had to ride to Starfall to return Dawn.

8. In books Ned is constantly feeling guilty about many 'lies' & 'failed promises'.. Above are some of them.  

9. Ned is a honourable guy. But bad circumstances (bad but non-political like Love & marriage) are making him protect the honour of not only house Stark but Dayne & Tully as well.

10. Reference to the Blue flower/rose growing from the chink of the ice wall - If i am not mistaken, the time-frame of this vision & the crossing of the Bran & co. is somewhat same. Can this be a reference to Meera instead of Jon?

What do you guys think? Please comment on this write-up. As i said, this can be totally biased view because i want Jon to be a Stark! Plus i am new to the books. It's just my first re-reading!! No offense intended to R+L=J staunch supporters & old readers!!

My understanding is that Jon and Meera are the same age, so that would make that year Jon's year of birth, too.

I've read about the theory that Meera and Jon are twins, so I know where you're coming from (about the possibility that Meera was also a child of Lyanna, born in the Tower of Joy) but I think the direct cut from the baby to Jon Snow (Kit Harrington) last night makes it crystal clear and irrefutable that the baby was the person we have known as Jon Snow.

[TheOtherRedWoman]

17 minutes ago, Winter_Is_Coming21 said:

I want Jon to be a STARK.. So my theory COULD BE biased somehow..

1. In books why is Ned constantly tormented by "Promise me, Ned", if he's kept that promise so perfectly for these many years?   I fail to understand this. My guess - He failed unknowingly only a few minutes before Lyanna asked him that promise. On show Lyanna says "...If Robert finds out he will kill him, you know he will... You have to protect him.. Promise me, Ned." I think here by 'him' she means Arthur Dayne. He+Howland Reed killed him below just minutes before! He simply won't tell her this tragic incident at her death-bed. That is why he is haunted by "Promise me, Ned" all the time.

2. This child Lyanna gave birth to in my opinion is Meera. http://awoiaf.westeros.org gives her birth year as 283 AC.  I don't have answers for following Questions though - Did Rhaegar as his best friend helped Arthur to run away with Lyanna? Is Lyanna's pregnancy why AD & other two KGs were there at TOJ? Why wouldn't Arthur tell Ned the whole thing before the TOJ fight even began? What is the colour of Arthur Dayne's eyes? Because Meera is definitely Green eyed & Lyanna was Grey.

3. Howland Reed took Meera with him to Greywater Watch & raised her as his daughter (he is in debt to Lyanna because Harrenhal tourney incident). Nobody can know a Kingsguard (that too an honourable knight like The Sword in The Morning) fathered a child! (Are they married? No idea!) It would be a disgrace to House Dayne & their honour.

4. Why is Ned so worried about honour of House Dayne? Ans. 1. Memory of Lyanna & her love interest 2. His own love interest!

5. Now we come to Ned's love interest. He & Ashara loved each other. Before Brandon Stark was killed Ned might have promised her a marriage & even gotten her pregnant. Their child is Jon & as per www.awoiaf.westeros.org his birth year is also 283 AC. My guess is that all these four; Stark & Dayne brother-sisters might have been close to each other/at same location right before Brandon & Rickard Stark's murders, & their love bloomed there. 

6. Now after Brandon's death as a law/tradition Ned has to marry Catlyn Tully for the honour of his house & House Tully. But what about Ashara, her child without a marriage? She couldn't bear her disgrace & a loss of Ned. Commits suicide. Ned had to take his+her child back home to protect the honour of Ashara & House Dayne. But why wouldn't he tell Cat about Jon after so many years? What about Wylla & other Dayne family members not knowing about Ashara's child? I have no answer.

7. His & Lyanna's relations with Arthur & Ashara quite explains why he had to ride to Starfall to return Dawn.

8. In books Ned is constantly feeling guilty about many 'lies' & 'failed promises'.. Above are some of them.  

9. Ned is a honourable guy. But bad circumstances (bad but non-political like Love & marriage) are making him protect the honour of not only house Stark but Dayne & Tully as well.

10. Reference to the Blue flower/rose growing from the chink of the ice wall - If i am not mistaken, the time-frame of this vision & the crossing of the Bran & co. is somewhat same. Can this be a reference to Meera instead of Jon?

What do you guys think? Please comment on this write-up. As i said, this can be totally biased view because i want Jon to be a Stark! Plus i am new to the books. It's just my first re-reading!! No offense intended to R+L=J staunch supporters & old readers!!

Good point, but I really don't think so.

Besides... Jon is still a Stark, even if by name. His mother being Lyanna Stark.

The cut away to his face after seeing the baby is a pretty clear indicator that was baby Jon. Besides the fact that Lyanna whispers "HIS name is..."

Trust me, I don't blame you for looking for the clues based on what you want to happen... I do it quite often with Tyrion Targaryen

[Cron]

38 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

The only logical explanation for three (or in the case of the screenplay, two) Kingsguard to be at the tower, and die protecting it, is to protect a legitimate Targaryen heir.  They would not do it on Rhaegar's orders, after he is dead and the war is lost.  They would not do it for Lyanna, who is dying.  They would not do it for the servants at the tower.  (I noted two, one with braided hair . . . ?)  Ned thinks very highly of these three Kingsguard, affording them at least the same honors as he gives his men, when building the cairns.  But, years later, their images are burned into Ned's memory, while his men's images have faded to a blur of fog.  It can only be because they were doing what they proclaimed, fulfilling their vow, to die for their king, if need be. 

Maybe.

Maybe.

I'm very open to the idea that Aejon is actually NOT a bastard, but on the other hand it is well-established that Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar were VERY good friends, which could also establish the motivation of Arthur and the other nights protecting Rhaegar's lover and child, whether illegitimate or not (since they would have known that's what Rhaegar not only would have wanted, but also what Rhaegar actually ordered them to do)

[Bazil]

I don't think Meera and Jon are siblings in the show, but they still could be in the books.

[Cron]

1 minute ago, Bazil said:

I don't think Meera and Jon are siblings in the show, but they still could be in the books.

 

1 minute ago, Bazil said:

I don't think Meera and Jon are siblings in the show, but they still could be in the books.

It's an interesting question.

My understanding is that in the books Meera is described as having a "Reed"  appearance (whereas in the show she looks a lot like Jon/Kit Harrington), so maybe, maybe not.

Dunno.

[Masha]

3 minutes ago, Bazil said:

I don't think Meera and Jon are siblings in the show, but they still could be in the books.

Where in the books its implied that Meera has any connection to Jon or to R+L? She doesn't look even look like him in the books - dark Green eyes, crannogmen body built? That theory only started because Meera actress in the show looks similar to Jon's actor with curly brown/dark hair

[Cron]

I heard a theory that The Baby = The Lord of Light = Ser Pounce.

Not saying I believe it, though.

[MtnLion]

9 minutes ago, Cron said:

Maybe.

Maybe.

I'm very open to the idea that Aejon is actually NOT a bastard, but on the other hand it is well-established that Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar were VERY good friends, which could also establish the motivation of Arthur and the other nights protecting Rhaegar's lover and child, whether illegitimate or not (since they would have known that's what Rhaegar not only would have wanted, but also what Rhaegar actually ordered them to do)

Then they would be forsaking their vows, and referring to them as the reason for their ensuing fight and death would be inane.  Then Ned would not have a reason to revere them, years later, when he describes them to Bran as a shining example for the world. 

[JGP]

As an aside to the quasi in-universe importance of genetics, i.e. the seed is strong, and the nitpicks regarding Stark and Targaryen coloring-- in the Hedge Knight, Baelor Breakspear was a Targaryen prince whose coloring took after his non-Targaryen lineage. So.