There were other survivors of ToJ!

[lidsa]

Why would Littlefinger go to the trouble of finding one of the midwives of Lyanna when he can just pay some random woman to pretend she was the midwife of Lyanna?    

Why would anybody believe some random woman's claim that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son?  

"No witnesses" goes both ways.

[Kytheros]

3 hours ago, lidsa said:

Why would Littlefinger go to the trouble of finding one of the midwives of Lyanna when he can just pay some random woman to pretend she was the midwife of Lyanna?    

Why would anybody believe some random woman's claim that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son?  

"No witnesses" goes both ways.

Because everyone knows that there is one other living witness - Lord Howland Reed.

If you're going to try to play a ToJ-survivor-with-secret-knowledge card, it's important that the one person who everyone knows was there doesn't say that the "witness" you're using wasn't actually there.

If anybody tried to say they were at the ToJ and know a secret, you can be damned sure that people would check with Howland Reed to find out if they were actually there. Especially if they're coming forward in connection with someone as fundamentally untrustworthy as Littlefinger.

I'd lay fairly good odds that Bran and Meera are either going to go to Greywater Watch or send word to Howland Reed and get him out of it in Season 7.

 

For that matter, I'm doubtful that Littlefinger suspects, much less knows, that Jon is Lyanna's. There's likely a largish part of Littlefinger that wants to believe that Ned cheated on Catelyn, proving that Ned "wasn't worthy of her" or something along those lines.
If any of the manipulator/masterminds knows or suspects R+L=J, it's Varys, not Littlefinger.
 

[Lurid Jester]

On June 27, 2016 at 8:31 AM, Marco van Panter said:

Ashara Dayne maybe?

That's my thought (for the braided woman we only see in dark silhouette), although I haven't quite worked out all the logistics of it.  

I do feel like it makes more sense for Eddard to escort a Dayne back to Starfall, especially if that Dayne did not have a worthy escort, and was no longer fit to travel because she just lost her brother.  

[King Jon Snow Stark]

Ned killed them all. And Ned eventually killed Howland Reed. That's why Reed isn't on the show. He's dead. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

On July 13, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Kytheros said:

Ashara was not at Starfall, pregnant with Daenerys. Ashara was never at Starfall pregnant with Daenerys. Ashara was never pregnant with Daenerys. Daenerys is about 8 months younger than Jon, and born on Dragonstone, per GRRM.

You are to be commended for fighting the good fight, for calling a spade a spade straight up.

Just don't be surprised when the tinfoil-hatted conspiracy nuts refuse to let go of their mad phantasies. They never do, no matter the proof.

[lidsa]

20 hours ago, Kytheros said:

If anybody tried to say they were at the ToJ and know a secret, you can be damned sure that people would check with Howland Reed to find out if they were actually there. Especially if they're coming forward in connection with someone as fundamentally untrustworthy as Littlefinger.

A. Obviously the person that would claim to be a witness wouldn't run around anouncing that they were bought by Littlefinger

B. Howland Reed isn't the pillar of society that you make him out to be. He's is a crannogman. That alone would make him untrustworthy in a lot of Westerosi Lords' and Ladies' eyes. They wouldn't just believe what Howland claimed. Howland could just be lying in order to help Ned's kids.

Howland Reed's word would - at most - only be good for the North. But everyone else in the realm will want more than the word of a crannogman. (Of course the same goes for some wench Littlefinger bought, but Littlefinger would most likely not depend on someone's words alone, he'd buy the Lords' and Ladies' opinion in some way or another.)

 

20 hours ago, Kytheros said:

For that matter, I'm doubtful that Littlefinger suspects, much less knows, that Jon is Lyanna's.

I think show-Littlefinger definitely knows. He had that scene with Sansa in front of Lyanna's statue where he gave her the "girl, really?" look when Sansa said Rhaegar raped Lyanna. And then again when he told Sansa that she has a better claim than Jon (which is true in any case though).

[Kytheros]

50 minutes ago, lidsa said:

A. Obviously the person that would claim to be a witness wouldn't run around anouncing that they were bought by Littlefinger

B. Howland Reed isn't the pillar of society that you make him out to be. He's is a crannogman. That alone would make him untrustworthy in a lot of Westerosi Lords' and Ladies' eyes. They wouldn't just believe what Howland claimed. Howland could just be lying in order to help Ned's kids.

Howland Reed's word would - at most - only be good for the North. But everyone else in the realm will want more than the word of a crannogman. (Of course the same goes for some wench Littlefinger bought, but Littlefinger would most likely not depend on someone's words alone, he'd buy the Lords' and Ladies' opinion in some way or another.)

 

A. No, obviously they're not going to say that Littlefinger bought them, but the "witness" would also need a way to voice their news, an introduction or platform to start with, otherwise they'll be brushed off and ignored as a loony by everyone. Littlefinger would have to bring or introduce them to someone else in order to get them a foot in the doorway of credibility.

B. Howland Reed is a crannogman, yes, and therefore looked down upon relative to the nobles of Westeros. But Lord Reed's word that someone was not present would still trump pretty much anybody else claiming to have been there. He doesn't need to speak to the events, merely state that the supposed witness was not actually present. Lord Reed is known to have been present, and the only other known person to have been there is Ned Stark. Nobody would be able to disprove Lord Reed saying that they weren't present. The only person who's word would suffice to overcome Lord Reed saying someone wasn't there would be Ned Stark saying that that someone was. Lord Reed may not be well regarded by the other noble houses, but they're more likely to believe him saying that someone wasn't at the ToJ, preserving the status quo, than believe that the person he said wasn't there actually was, and is now - all these years later - willing to reveal all the secrets, upsetting the status quo, and potentially doing so in a major way. Especially since the person claiming to have been there would be a commoner.
That being said, you're absolutely right, Lord Reed's word claiming that Jon was Lyanna and Rhaegar's child (legitimate or otherwise) would not be sufficient for the rest of Westeros on its own. But in the particular case I was talking about, Lord Reed wouldn't be claiming that - he'd be saying that an alleged witness wasn't there, which is an entirely different thing. And, I think that if Lord Howland Reed were to publicly proclaim R+L=J, he'd only do so if he had some means of proving it.

 

50 minutes ago, lidsa said:

I think show-Littlefinger definitely knows. He had that scene with Sansa in front of Lyanna's statue where he gave her the "girl, really?" look when Sansa said Rhaegar raped Lyanna. And then again when he told Sansa that she has a better claim than Jon (which is true in any case though).

Sansa has a better claim to Winterfell than Jon does under any possible scenario of his parentage. He's an acknowledged bastard, but he's not legitimized, which puts him firmly at the back of the succession - and even if he were legitimized, the order of the claims would be murky between a trueborn daughter and a legitimized bastard son. Frankly, the only way Jon clearly gets ahead of Sansa is in the books, where Robb's planned will is to explicitly disinherit Sansa, legitimize Jon, and explicitly name Jon heir in the absence of heirs of his (Robb's) body (Robb having children).

I think it might be true that Show-Littlefinger thinks or knows that there's more to the story than just Rhaegar abducting and raping Lyanna, true. He might be surprised that she was never told more than that, but I don't think it's clear that he knows or suspects R+L=J. Realistically, he would have no way to have found out. At most, he could have mild and unprovable suspicions about R+L=J versus his hate and contempt for Ned and wanting to believe that Ned really did betray Catelyn with another woman - proving (in Littlefinger's mind) that Ned wasn't worthy of Catelyn, and that Ned's betrayal of Catelyn with Jon's mother might one day lead to Cat leaving Ned, giving Littlefinger an opening with her.

 

 

 

No, if anybody other than Howland Reed knows or knows how to prove R+L=J, it's Varys, not Littlefinger. But if Littlefinger does or can, Varys definitely does and can. Besides, proclaiming R+L=J wouldn't really help Littlefinger much, if at all. It's not going to depose Jon as King in the North, and Jon's firmly fixated on the threat from beyond the Wall, not the South. Although, I suppose if it could be proven to their satisfaction, it might cause the Northern and Vale lords to push Jon into making a claim for the Iron Throne against his will. And that could be something Littlefinger might be able to turn to his advantage.

[MtnLion]

On 6/28/2016 at 4:19 AM, Kytheros said:

And, technically, it was never explicit that all of the "seven facing three" except for Ned and Howland died. Just strongly implied between the making of cairns, their lack of known presence anywhere since, and "but only two lived to ride away". The wording leaves open the possibly that some lived but did not or could not ride away, and instead were loaded into a litter, cart, wagon, travois, etc, and were carried away or some lived and walked away. I wouldn't care to lay odds on it, but, the wording does leave a loophole. In the books, that is, in the show it was six against two and everybody but Ned and Howland clearly died. I'm not sure why the show went to six against two from seven facing three.

Actually, GRRM has recently said "Only two men survived to leave the tower."  There is a bit reverence in Ned building separate cairns for each of the fallen.  No communal graves for either group.  

I suppose there will be a faction that swells up saying that Ned only performed a sex altering procedure on Dayne, using his great sword, and that he lives on as an eunuch.  That would not explain the empty cairn, though.  Ned doesn't have the leisure time to be building cairns for no reason.  

The change from 7:3 to 6:2 was likely for confusion reduction, and to save in salaries.  

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

Only 2 men survived to leave the tower, that means maybe there were some ladies alive...knowing about what happened 

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

On 15/07/2016 at 7:51 AM, Kytheros said:

If anybody tried to say they were at the ToJ and know a secret, you can be damned sure that people would check with Howland Reed to find out if they were actually there. Especially if they're coming forward in connection with someone as fundamentally untrustworthy as Littlefinger.

 

Nobody has seen Howland since the Tower of Joy.

[St Daga]

On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Kytheros said:

For that matter, I'm doubtful that Littlefinger suspects, much less knows, that Jon is Lyanna's. There's likely a largish part of Littlefinger that wants to believe that Ned cheated on Catelyn, proving that Ned "wasn't worthy of her" or something along those lines.

If any of the manipulator/masterminds knows or suspects R+L=J, it's Varys, not Littlefinger.
 

 

On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 0:39 PM, lidsa said:

I think show-Littlefinger definitely knows. He had that scene with Sansa in front of Lyanna's statue where he gave her the "girl, really?" look when Sansa said Rhaegar raped Lyanna. And then again when he told Sansa that she has a better claim than Jon (which is true in any case though).

I was just arguing/discussing this with a friend the other day. He thinks Littlefinger knows about Jon, but I really doubt it.

I have no doubt that Littlefinger thinks or knows there is more to the story than Rhaegar, who is always reported as honorable and just, a handsome prince, kidnapping and raping a young noblewoman, who was actually reported to have a bit of a wild streak. It makes sense to think they ran away together, denying that seems a bit naive.

But I don't see how Littlefinger would think Jon is a baby born of a union between Rhaegar and Lyanna. As far as we know, the details of Lyanna's death are held close by Ned, and he didn't talk about Lyanna much. It was to painful, and also the more a person talks, the more a person risks revealing. Ned certainly wanted to protect Jon, even at the risk of destroying his own marriage. Littlefinger seems to plant in Sansa's head that Jon is a "bastard from the south" and "half-brother", but he never alludes to Jon's mother or that Ned wasn't his father. I think if Littlefinger knew the truth of Jon, he would never have allowed him a chance at a position of strength, which ultimately lead to Jon being named KitN.

Maybe I'm being wishful and sentimental, but I would like to think that Ned's actual victory over Littlefinger is that he did keep the secret of Jon's birth and parentage!

[Lady Lark of the NorthWood]

There are several things that just don't add up. I'm not going into the whole debate about why the cream of the KG crop was at a deserted tower in the Dornish desert.

I'm pretty sure that Arthur Dayne, at least, knew who Ned was, and that he was Lyanna's brother. Why was he, and the others, so adamant about keeping Ned away from her? Did he not know at the time that Rhaegar had been killed? If not, then that would explain it. They were expecting Rhaegar to come back.

Another thing I'm puzzling over is Wylla and Edric Dayne. He told Arya that he and Jon were "milk brothers". How could they be milk brothers if Edric is several years younger than Jon. I thought that being milk brothers meant that both babies were being nursed together, like twins.

 

 

[lidsa]

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

Littlefinger thinks or knows there is more to the story than Rhaegar, who is always reported as honorable and just, a handsome prince

Rhaegar isn't actually ever portrayed as honorable or just. He's idolized by Cersei, JonCon, and Viserys, but neither of them actually knew him.   

And Littlefinger, of all people, knows not to put much stock into "handsome prince" stories. That's what he's trying to teach Sansa. That someone can be an absolute prick and yet still have a reputation of being a gallant knight.

 

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

I don't see how Littlefinger would think Jon is a baby born of a union between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

LF is actually in a prime position to know it. He's a treasure trove of secrets, both in the show as well as the books (even though it's plot-armor-nonsense that anyone would still trust him). Ned, Howland, and Lyanna weren't the only people at the Tower of Joy. In the books, Ned Dayne knows about Wylla. In the show there are two women there in the room, one of them is speculated to be Wylla.  

I don't think it's too much of a mental leap to think Littlefinger has gotten wind about a baby being born at the Tower of Joy, be it through his brothels or through buying secrets, and then concluded that it must've been Lyanna's by Rhaegar.  

 

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

 I think if Littlefinger knew the truth of Jon, he would never have allowed him a chance at a position of strength, which ultimately lead to Jon being named KitN.

He wasn't in a position to allow or disallow anything, since he's not the leader of the North and only the leader of the Vale by proxy. He just simply didn't expect for someone (Sansa) to not want power.

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

Maybe I'm being wishful and sentimental, but I would like to think that Ned's actual victory over Littlefinger is that he did keep the secret of Jon's birth and parentage!

I'm sure Ned did. But he wasn't the only person at the Tower of Joy, and Ned has/had no control over those people.

 

In my headcanon Littlefinger got inspired to fight Brandon for Catelyn when he somehow saw Rhaegar and Lyanna sneaking around at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Then Rhaegar would be at the root of all evil in the series (not truly, but kinda; I just seriously dislike that dude).

[Yoren "The Wanderly Crow"]

Why did Rhaegar have maids tending Lyanna, the best nights of his king guard protecting her and he never thought to have a maester with her?!

I thinks that a bit odd..if he was so concerned about protecting her & Jon then why not have his best maester there in case there was issued with birth or afterwards!!

[Ser Hyle]

On 6/27/2016 at 11:25 AM, Mista C said:

There would 100% had to have been a wet nurse with them from the TOJ to Winterfell.  No formula, no milk, just Ned and Howland Reed with an infant?  

Is this the pitch for a new sitcom?

[St Daga]

On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:27 AM, lidsa said:

Rhaegar isn't actually ever portrayed as honorable or just. He's idolized by Cersei, JonCon, and Viserys, but neither of them actually knew him.   

And Littlefinger, of all people, knows not to put much stock into "handsome prince" stories. That's what he's trying to teach Sansa. That someone can be an absolute prick and yet still have a reputation of being a gallant knight.

 

LF is actually in a prime position to know it. He's a treasure trove of secrets, both in the show as well as the books (even though it's plot-armor-nonsense that anyone would still trust him). Ned, Howland, and Lyanna weren't the only people at the Tower of Joy. In the books, Ned Dayne knows about Wylla. In the show there are two women there in the room, one of them is speculated to be Wylla.  

I don't think it's too much of a mental leap to think Littlefinger has gotten wind about a baby being born at the Tower of Joy, be it through his brothels or through buying secrets, and then concluded that it must've been Lyanna's by Rhaegar.  

 

He wasn't in a position to allow or disallow anything, since he's not the leader of the North and only the leader of the Vale by proxy. He just simply didn't expect for someone (Sansa) to not want power.

I'm sure Ned did. But he wasn't the only person at the Tower of Joy, and Ned has/had no control over those people.

 

In my headcanon Littlefinger got inspired to fight Brandon for Catelyn when he somehow saw Rhaegar and Lyanna sneaking around at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Then Rhaegar would be at the root of all evil in the series (not truly, but kinda; I just seriously dislike that dude).

 -lidsa you make some good points, I just see thinns differently. Good debate is always interesting.

Actually Barristan the Bold has several great things to say about Rhaegar, and Ned doesn't seem to have any hard feelings towards him, which leads me to believe that Rhaegar was a good man, or at least had admirable qualities. For the most part, Rhaegar seems to be viewed favorably in the story, with Robert Barrathian being a major exception. The books hint that Rhaegar was trying to raise support to overthrow his father, who was becoming very unstable on the throne.

Littlefinger may have been trying to teach Sansa a lesson while he manipulated her into marrying Ramsay, but what she should have seen was that Littlefinger himself is not the person he seems. He is the absolute prick hiding behind courtly manners and nice clothing.

All we really know about Wylla is that she was both Jon's and Edric (Ned) Dayne's wet nurse. Ned gives her name to Robert as Jon's mother,  in a manner that is very uncomfortable and not very believabe. It's never stated she was at the ToJ. It's never discussed if she traveled north with Ned and baby Jon, and if so, how she ended up back at Starfall, to be a wet nurse for the Dayne family. Possibly she just was Jon's wet nurse while at Starfall. No one at Winterfell seems to remember Wylla so I doubt she ever came north.

There were other people at the ToJ, but it's a huge leap to guess who they might have been. Ashara Dayne is a possibility, a maester is a possibility, but if any of those people lived, they haven't talked. We know Howland Reed knows and hasn't talked. In the books, Ned silences someone at Winterfell who was talking about Jon's possible mother, it is not a stretch to believe he could have done this at the ToJ. The show and books are bound to differ on this greatly.

Something is off about Littlefinger. I don't think he knows as much as he thinks. I don't think he knows the truth about Jons parents. I think he could think that baby Jon was the product of Brandon and Ashara, but not Rhaegar's son. He seems almost unaware about Dany and/or the Others, or at least unconcerned. I don't think he really wants Sansa, no more than he really wanted Cat. If he truly wanted Cat, he would have avoided his affair with Lyssa. As a young person, he focused on being important to the Tully's, but he wasnt at all. It is actually weird that he was fostered at Riverrun when he was from such a small, unimportant family in the Vale. All he wants is power, but that doesn't make him all-knowing. He admits to having poor information on Ramsay, but who knows if that is the truth, or just what he told Sansa to weasel his way out of trouble. 

As for Littlefinger's inspiration to challenge Brandon Stark, who knows what he was thinking. Not much, I'd guess, if he thought that was going to work out. I do think his loss, which was quick and humiliating, is what inspired his hatred of the Starks, and what has set him down a path of attempting to destroy the Stark family and name. I don't think he has any tender feelings for Sansa; he is using her, and will sacrifice her to save himself, if need be.

It's interesting to find people who feel Rhaegar is the root of all evil, if I understood correctly who you meant? Certainly, his "kidnapping" of Lyanna sparked a war, but if his child with hers was foretold in prophecy to be the savior, then maybe it can be excused. Much like Ned explains that lies, can be exceptable, and even honorable, if done for the right reason. I'm not sure I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were madly in love, but maybe, I guess. I think it could be more possible that they were checking boxes on the Prince that was Promised prophecy.

[Slaysman]

On 6/28/2016 at 6:19 AM, Kytheros said:

Um ... no.

First, Edric "Ned" Dayne's mother would have been Lady Dayne - she's not a wetnurse, she's someone who has wetnurses for her children.

Second, Ned Dayne is several years younger than Jon.

 

Presumably the woman who handed Ned Stark the baby is the Wylla from Starfall.

And, technically, it was never explicit that all of the "seven facing three" except for Ned and Howland died. Just strongly implied between the making of cairns, their lack of known presence anywhere since, and "but only two lived to ride away". The wording leaves open the possibly that some lived but did not or could not ride away, and instead were loaded into a litter, cart, wagon, travois, etc, and were carried away or some lived and walked away. I wouldn't care to lay odds on it, but, the wording does leave a loophole. In the books, that is, in the show it was six against two and everybody but Ned and Howland clearly died. I'm not sure why the show went to six against two from seven facing three.

I have always wondered who else left that place. For a while I thought it was Arthur Dayne. Then I thought better of that since it would have been to hard for him to have just taken on a new identity. Unless he entered Reed witness protection, considering how he has been able to hide his entire army for the whole war and beyond. I know show wise that Arthur Dayne got shanked by Howland. In the books it was never clear.