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Still a bastard (spoilers)


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Now that we can say that Jon (despite his real name not being Jon) is in fact the son of  Lyanna and Rhaegar, that still doesn't make him the heir of the throne. Lyanna wasn't married to Raeghar so any children that she bore, even though she was high-born, is still out of wedlock which means that she couldn't have give birth to a legitimate son. Legally he doesn't have the right to anything, maybe the North if he is legitimized as a Stark or take it by force.

So, maybe not Jon Snow but Jon Sands because he was born at Dorne?

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Truth is we don't know if they were married and even if we did know that who would be the delivery system to bring all this information that makes him a legitimate half Stark half Targaryen heir to the world in a way that's believable? Perhaps Varys knows. Best case scenario is Daenaerys wrecks the opposition and takes control and then Varys tells her the truth. I doubt she'll give up a damn thing but at least it will be known.

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1 minute ago, Bastard of the Dreadfort said:

I predict a new Dance of Dragons between Jon and Sansa, making it a Dance of Wolves. Not to be confused with Dances with Wolves by Kevin Costner.

I dont, Danaerys will have to fight the White Walkers as well, that's probably why her army is as insanely large as it is.

Aegon II and Rhaenyra did not have to face something like that.

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9 minutes ago, Saiyan said:

It's possible that they have married secretly before Jon was born.

A secret marriage is not a marriage. They had no contracts or wedding registers in those days.

Commoners could just say their vows to each other behind a hedge and everything was cool, because no one cared what they did. Nobility on the other hand would have required witnesses of the appropriate social standing for such a wedding to take place, and if they were of sufficiently high rank, they would also require permission from the king.

They could not just say "Yay! We are in love! Lets get married!". It did not work that way.

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why do people stuck with jon being a bastard? it didn't prevent him becoming king in the North. Also what is cercei? what claim did she have on the iron throne? I dont believe he will sit on the iron throne but if he does what difference will it make if he is a bastard? Daemon blackfyre was a bastard, yes he was legitimized but he had no claim on the throne other than his sword yet half of the kindoms supported him. So rhaegar believed his son with lyanna will the prince that was promised, isnt it an enough claim if jon ever wanted to seat the iron throne?

From what i understand the role of the prince that was promised is leading the army of the living through the long night. He doesnt have to sit on the iron chair for that. I am sure whoever sits on the throne will follow jon with the fight against the walkers.

 

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What i  posted on another thread :

Well the scene cutting to Jon Snow and then Houses pledging alliances to Jon Snow even being a bastard. The whole set up was meant to bring to light the character of Jon Snow. He did not need to be highborn, it shows that even a seemingly scorned person with good virtues can earn his due reward. That was what i took way from it. For years we have been bothered by who was Jon Snows parents, and when we get it it really does not matter, its least relevant. 

What matters is who is Jon Snow, the person, the commander and the king in the north ?

 

21 minutes ago, helter skelter said:

why do people stuck with jon being a bastard? it didn't prevent him becoming king in the North. Also what is cercei? what claim did she have on the iron throne? I dont believe he will sit on the iron throne but if he does what difference will it make if he is a bastard? Daemon blackfyre was a bastard, yes he was legitimized but he had no claim on the throne other than his sword yet half of the kindoms supported him. So rhaegar believed his son with lyanna will the prince that was promised, isnt it an enough claim if jon ever wanted to seat the iron throne?

From what i understand the role of the prince that was promised is leading the army of the living through the long night. He doesnt have to sit on the iron chair for that. I am sure whoever sits on the throne will follow jon with the fight against the walkers.

 

co incidentally  you need to read this article :

http://mashable.com/2016/05/03/game-thrones-heir/#3.xodLU76uq8

most pop culture sites have mostly pointless banter this article was really useful. And they kinda hit the nail on the head in terms of the possible claimants and heirs. 

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24 minutes ago, helter skelter said:

why do people stuck with jon being a bastard? it didn't prevent him becoming king in the North. Also what is cercei? what claim did she have on the iron throne? I dont believe he will sit on the iron throne but if he does what difference will it make if he is a bastard? Daemon blackfyre was a bastard, yes he was legitimized but he had no claim on the throne other than his sword yet half of the kindoms supported him. So rhaegar believed his son with lyanna will the prince that was promised, isnt it an enough claim if jon ever wanted to seat the iron throne?

From what i understand the role of the prince that was promised is leading the army of the living through the long night. He doesnt have to sit on the iron chair for that. I am sure whoever sits on the throne will follow jon with the fight against the walkers.

 

Being a bastard means you have no right of inheritance and were generally considered to be on a lower rung in the social order. Jon did not become King in the North because it was his right, he became king by acclamation of the nobles.

There were lots of nobles in medieval times who held titles and lands and were also bastards. Generally these were granted to them however, they did not inherit them. A king or a liege lord could grant lands and titles to anyone they chose to. In Jon's case the lords granted him the crown, but he did not inherit it.

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2 minutes ago, tugela said:

Being a bastard means you have no right of inheritance and were generally considered to be on a lower rung in the social order. Jon did not become King in the North because it was his right, he became king by acclamation of the nobles.

There were lots of nobles in medieval times who held titles and lands and were also bastards. Generally these were granted to them however, they did not inherit them. A king or a liege lord could grant lands and titles to anyone they chose to. In Jon's case the lords granted him the crown, but he did not inherit it.

You can say aswell that Jon won the crown through the right of conquest. He took Winterfell and defeated Ramsey.

 

 

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But why would Jon even fight for the Iron Throne? He doesn't care about the 7K, and his view of the world won't change a lot when he'll learn his true lineage. The only way he sits on the chair is through a marriage with Dany. 

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1 minute ago, The Imp slap said:

Lyanna & Rhaegar got married. It is known. 

Jon's entire story is pointless if he remains a bastard. I could see the show writers making that mistake but no Martin. Jon is most definitely a full-on Targ. 

 

Who will acknowledge that he is not a Targ bastard? How do he or anyone else know and believe that?

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21 minutes ago, The Imp slap said:

Bran Stark, Howland Reed, Varys... they all could bring the news. As for acknowledging it, the events to come will bring a proper situation for that. 

Don't forget, the show also hints that Littlefinger seems to know a few of the secrets as well.

I do agree that everyone believing a random vision from Bran would be a little strange, so *someone* alive will need to expose this.

The obvious choice is Howland Reed, who was present for all of it.  Not to mention that I find it hard to believe the show will continue to ignore him (why wasn't he in Ep. 10 declaring for Jon?).  There is also the chance that Sam finds some sort of official marriage document (or something) at the Citadel, that is if they *did* get secretly wed.  Somehow I don't see the show doing this though..it's too deep of a plot twist for D&D to cook up.  (I can see GRRM doing it, however).

So my money is still on Howland Reed exposing it.  It's the only logical reason for why D&D are keeping him absent from the show.  They'll be some sort of big Bran/Jon/Meera/Howland scene next season, I bet.

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So the show took us from the Tower of Joy scene directly to Winterfell where someone yells "He has the blood of Ned Stark in him". I think the fact that he's not Ned Stark's son will be more important than the fact that he's a Targaryan (unless/until he crosses paths with Dany). 

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