Still a bastard (spoilers)

[Kytheros]

Proving a Rhaegar and Lyanna marriage would be very difficult. Proving it in such a way that the rest of Westeros believes it is likely next to impossible, unless it gets proven to someone other than Team Stark who then accepts and promulgates it.

And, frankly, in the show, Jon's legitimacy as a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna doesn't look like it's going to matter. Jon's been declared King in the North - by a mixture of Northern Lords, Wildlings, and possibly Vale Lords (other than Littlefinger) were in the room as well.

Dany's got limited worthwhile options: Euron Grayjoy (not going to happen), Jaime Lannister (lol), Littlefinger (lol, both Varys and Tyrion will be advising her to not trust him and to get rid of him as soon as possible, Rob Arryn (unlikely, especially since he's supposed to be rather young), and Jon Snow.

 

Frankly, Jon's bigggest mortal/political problem won't be Dany. It probably won't even be Cersei and the Lannisters. Euron? He's going after Dany and secondarily Cersei and the Lannisters, the North is at the bottom of his Westeros priority list. It'll be Littlefinger ... who might go back south and try to cause problems for Jon with both Cersei and Dany, in addition to trying to stir up trouble with Sansa.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

some magic hologram in the sky showing jon with an harp riding a dragon is the only way a legitimacy proof can be made... the rest might aswell destroy the quality of the story and make it a default king arthur copy...

he already died, to have an undead king i prefer the NK (more experience rulling)

ps: give us RR, the characters in the show at this point are BORING AS HELL

 

[JonSnowed]

I think Jon will execute little finger and Cersei is no threat to Jon at all, she has limited military at her disposal and invading mad queen with dragons and lots of southern armies supporting her.

[purple-eyes]

On June 27, 2016 at 6:30 PM, The Imp slap said:

Lyanna & Rhaegar got married. It is known. 

Jon's entire story is pointless if he remains a bastard. I could see the show writers making that mistake but no Martin. Jon is most definitely a full-on Targ. 

it is known to whom? you and some people perhaps. please do not try to represent everybody. 

oh, hold on, are you GRRM? if so, then yeah, i agree that they are married and jon is a legit targ. 

 

[SixFeetUnder]

Just a question, what was the deal with the one tweet from George, that said Jon snows parents rhymed with two names that had to be Robert baratheon and catleyn stark? 

[purple-eyes]

it is so much fun to see so many people jumped out and shouted that rhaegar and lyanba were married, as if they watched the ceremony by themselves. 

i understand you guys desperately want your beloved jon and lyanna not to be mistress and bastard. but the question is, lyanna is indeed a mistress and jon is a bastard out of wedlock. why? because rhaegar is married and he can not have a second wife. if polygamy is ok, he does not need to run off and keep silent for one year. 

GRRM wrote specifically that KG can guard mistress and bastard, please tell me, over the history of KG, who else can be these lucky mistress and bastard? 

 

[purple-eyes]

2 minutes ago, SixFeetUnder said:

Just a question, what was the deal with the one tweet from George, that said Jon snows parents rhymed with two names that had to be Robert baratheon and catleyn stark? 

what is this? sounds interesting. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

On June 26, 2016 at 11:40 PM, rodrigobraganca said:

Now that we can say that Jon (despite his real name not being Jon) is in fact the son of  Lyanna and Rhaegar, that still doesn't make him the heir of the throne. Lyanna wasn't married to Raeghar so any children that she bore, even though she was high-born, is still out of wedlock which means that she couldn't have give birth to a legitimate son. Legally he doesn't have the right to anything, maybe the North if he is legitimized as a Stark or take it by force.

So, maybe not Jon Snow but Jon Sands because he was born at Dorne?

FJon is not a bastard. Elia could bear Rhaegar no more children. Barrenness is always grounds for setting aside a legal marriage, even a consumated one.

So FJon is still a legitimate Targaryen. He's just a Fake Jon, as you point out.

 

[Rippounet]

2 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

FJon is not a bastard. Elia could bear Rhaegar no more children. Barrenness is always grounds for setting aside a legal marriage, even a consumated one.

Except he didn't. He could have, yes, but he didn't.

[Rippounet]

23 hours ago, Mourneblade said:

Actually no he did not, just because he sent his wife, son, and unborn daughter to Dragonstone /= him declaring them Heirs. That is why the King's Guard stayed, otherwise they would have left the ToJ to join V on Dragonstone. They did not even though they were duty bound to protect the next King. These men showed that they were in fact duty bound, to the point of giving up their lives, which is why they were AT the ToJ when Ned got there. There is no getting around this, and why I have been saying for years that R+L=J to begin with.

The world book states that Aerys named Viserys his heir after Rhaegar died.

And yeah, maybe the KG didn't know about this. Maybe nobody knows about it (though, I think most people just don't think it's relevant since they don't know about Jon).

Nonetheless, in the books, from a strictly legal point of view, it's Dany before Jon, PERIOD. You don't even need to speculate about a secret marriage, or that everyone is fine with polygamy, or whatever fairy tale you want to come up with... We have a simple recorded fact that puts Dany before Jon in every possible scenario, even if Jon was legitimate and somehow able to prove it.
Of course, it's only from a strictly legal point of view. We know that succession laws are relatively vague, and kind of depend on the power struggles between the claimants. But here also, it's hard to see how Jon would get the upper hand over the bloody Mother of Dragons... Or even why he would try to get it.

Basically the chances of Jon sitting on the IT because of his parentage (rather than through marriage, though of course,his parentage might factor in a marriage to Dany) are almost zero. Some people seriously need to deal with it instead of writing nonsense.

 

[Damon_Tor]

On 6/26/2016 at 10:40 PM, rodrigobraganca said:

Now that we can say that Jon (despite his real name not being Jon) is in fact the son of  Lyanna and Rhaegar, that still doesn't make him the heir of the throne. Lyanna wasn't married to Raeghar so any children that she bore, even though she was high-born, is still out of wedlock which means that she couldn't have give birth to a legitimate son. Legally he doesn't have the right to anything, maybe the North if he is legitimized as a Stark or take it by force.

So, maybe not Jon Snow but Jon Sands because he was born at Dorne?

One of the themes of ASoIaF (the novels) is that the medieval system of inheritance is bullshit. Being firstborn doesn't make you a better king than your brothers might be. Being born outside of wedlock doesn't impact your potential as a leader. What matters is skill, learned or inborn. If the story ends with Jon becoming a leader under the flawed legal principles of the feudal system this whole theme is largely thrown out the window.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

3 hours ago, SixFeetUnder said:

Just a question, what was the deal with the one tweet from George, that said Jon snows parents rhymed with two names that had to be Robert baratheon and catleyn stark? 

Mostly a joke https://www.quora.com/GoT-Spoilers-Is-it-true-that-George-RR-Martin-tweeted-a-spoiler-about-Jons-parentage

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

The King's Guard protecting Lyanna and baby Jon must have thought he was the legitimate heir hence fighting to protect them.  I am not ready to discard the idea that maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married and/or Rhaegar declared him his heir in a will.   Maybe Ned or Howland Reed stashed the written evidence away somewhere or destroyed it.  Bran will likely have more visions revealing new information.

[Rippounet]

23 hours ago, TheOtherRedWoman said:

Why in the world would Rhaegar have 3 Kingsguard there to protect his mistress and bastard son? No, he had them there to protect his wife and trueborn heir.

Trueborn heir? Christ... Aegon would always be Rhaegar's first son and heir, even if you want to believe Rhaegar married Lyanna. Unless you somehow start saying that not only did Rhaegar assume everyone would be cool with polygamy, not only did he repudiate Elia, but he also disinherited his first son, uh?
Or perhaps a fancy theory to say that Aegon wasn't Rhaegar's (that would be fun actually, and I'd like such a plot twist, but at this point there's zero textual evidence to such a thing) ?

And of course, Rhaegar could not order the KG to guard his heir anyway, because basic chronology tells us that there's almost no way he would know that the child was a boy. It's almost 100% certain that Rhaegar left before Lyanna gave birth. Which means that he ordered the KG to guard Lyanna and his child, but certainly not an heir. In all likelihood, Jon was even born after his father died...

Seriously, the length to which people will go to defend this "Jon is king" nonsense is truly amazing. Don't worry, Jon may very well end up king anyway. But he never was the legit' heir to the throne. Even the show hasn't even come close to establishing that.

Sorry, but Jon just isn't Aragorn.

[SixFeetUnder]

12 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Mostly a joke https://www.quora.com/GoT-Spoilers-Is-it-true-that-George-RR-Martin-tweeted-a-spoiler-about-Jons-parentage

Darn, would be funny if it's true 

[Rippounet]

12 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

One of the themes of ASoIaF (the novels) is that the medieval system of inheritance is bullshit. Being firstborn doesn't make you a better king than your brothers might be. Being born outside of wedlock doesn't impact your potential as a leader. What matters is skill, learned or inborn. If the story ends with Jon becoming a leader under the flawed legal principles of the feudal system this whole theme is largely thrown out the window.

Thank you. It's sad that so few people realize that Martin likely constructed his story precisely so that Jon would not be the "rightful" heir.

[Damon_Tor]

11 minutes ago, SixFeetUnder said:

Darn, would be funny if it's true 

It would be funny. Where Cat hates Jon not because he's Ned's bastard, but because he's HER bastard, HER shame. Eddard cared so much about Cat he claimed her bastard as his own to hide her shame, which just made her feel worse, unworthy of Ned.

Of course it makes no sense on a number of levels, but it would make for some delicious irony.

[Ghosts Lunch]

On 6/27/2016 at 6:49 PM, Bastard of the Dreadfort said:

I predict a new Dance of Dragons between Jon and Sansa, making it a Dance of Wolves. Not to be confused with Dances with Wolves by Kevin Costner.

Wouldn't this really kinda be the Dance of the Wolves and the Hounds?

(Or the Dance of the Wolf and the Bat? Or Dragon-Wolf and Bat etc etc)

 

Eg Sansa is closer to Hounds since Lady's death

This is why having Ramsays Hounds killing him was fascinating to me

What fascinates me is the talk of Nymeria ripping apart the Hunting Dogs sent after her early in the Wolf Pack which is perhaps a form of foreshadowing that there will indeed be a war where Robbs Kingdom is split, eg Jon takes over North and Sansa the RL (and Vale perhaps)

As for Jon, I still reckon there's a substantial chance that Rhaegar and Lyanna married before the Isle of Faces (or basically a Weir Tree)

This season dealt with Jons Stark arc, but I suspect next season will deal with Jons Targaryen arc so we'll see Bran getting Flashbacks of Rhaegar and Tourney of Harrenhall and Trident etc

[The Imp slap]

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

it is known to whom? you and some people perhaps. please do not try to represent everybody. 

oh, hold on, are you GRRM? if so, then yeah, i agree that they are married and jon is a legit targ. 

 

I was joking around... Why so serious?

[CrypticWeirwood]

2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

One of the themes of ASoIaF (the novels) is that the medieval system of inheritance is bullshit. Being firstborn doesn't make you a better king than your brothers might be. Being born outside of wedlock doesn't impact your potential as a leader. What matters is skill, learned or inborn. If the story ends with Jon becoming a leader under the flawed legal principles of the feudal system this whole theme is largely thrown out the window.

That's a good observation.  What we’ve seen so far is that FakeJon has become a leader at least in part for his skills and results, although they still think it's important that he be Ned’s son instead of Lyanna's.

What matters is preparation. Like Edric Storm, FakeJon was raised in a noble household. We have plenty of examples of such people rising high: look at Bloodraven.

But then you have Cersei’s kids, you know?  I'm sure that Young Griff from the books might end up being a better ruler than any of her get even if he is FakeAegon.

So it makes sense that FakeJon would be shown to achieve the position of ruler despite his birth, not because of it.  That seems like the lesson that Martin is going to show.

Unless he just achieves everything because he is "the true prince" with the whole "hidden heir" thing from King Arthur and Star Wars and all the rest.  At least Aragorn worked for it.  We see FakeJon making plenty of mistakes, but he’s definitely working for it.