What does this mean for the Vale?

[cleffa]

Is there a need for the Starks to join houses with house Arryn by marrying Sansa to Sweet Robin? Cause I'm not sure what LF will do with the Vale unless the Starks and the Arryns join houses then LF can't do anything about it and there will be peace between the two houses at least.

[Chib]

37 minutes ago, cleffa said:

Is there a need for the Starks to join houses with house Arryn by marrying Sansa to Sweet Robin? Cause I'm not sure what LF will do with the Vale unless the Starks and the Arryns join houses then LF can't do anything about it and there will be peace between the two houses at least.

 

 

I think it's so obvious that Sansa will marry Robin. LF will be like: "Darling, one more husband to kill and we will be together!"

[arya_underfoot]

I dont think it's clear at all that the Vale has joined the Kingdom of the North. That would require the express permission of the Lord of the Eyrie and the Lord Regent, the former absent and the latter silent on the matter. It would make sense for Sansa to marry Sweetrobin and wrest control of the Vale from Baelish, though it won't exactly be easy. The Knights of the Vale may be willing to swap a disliked master (Baelish) for a relatively unknown one (Sansa) in the belief that she's just a girl and can be manipulated. But like i said, that won't be easy.

[tugela]

18 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

The Vale fought for the Starks and against the Iron Throne appointed Warden of the North. The Vale stood and declared for Jon Snow as King in the North. So what does that mean for the Vale exactly? They have clearly separated themselves from the Lannisters and the Iron Throne, but it's not geographically part of the North which makes it less clear than say the Manderley's in White Harbor or any of the other lords present at the 'crowning'. Has the Vale taken Jon as their King? Are they now an independent state simply at peace and aligned with the North?

Not much, since pretty much all of the kingdom other than the Lannisters are currently in rebellion as a result of Cersei's actions.

[tugela]

4 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

So if the Vale doesn't recognize Jon as their King, and it doesn't recognize Cersei as their Queen, are they now an independent nation? Does Baelish start calling himself King of the Vale?

The Vale actually has bigger problems that who they support in the greater civil war. Remember that Tyrion armed their mountain tribes, so they are likely preoccupied with that problem.

[TheonGreyjoy]

I think it was pretty clear that the Vale acknowledged Jon as their king. If they didn't they would have left immediately. Common sense is that they would want to reinstate the Tullys in the Riverlands and crush the Lannisters/Frey. Making the kingdom with those with the Vale and Riverlands just as Robb supposedly wanted. If it wasn't for Lysa they would have joined at that time.

[Chib]

I doubt that the Vale would acknowledge Jon. They came for Sansa after all, my guess is that next season Sansa will go to Vale and we will have another wedding between Sansa and Robin.

I hope Jon won't go LOL

[The Dew]

With Lord Jon Arryn's death, Lady Wacko Lysa Arryn distanced herself from the Crown; and no Knight of the Vale assisted any warring side.

It appears, that the Lords of the Vale were present during the "Northmoot" along with the Lord Protecto. LF did not rise to proclaim Jon KITN, either of fury because his plans were scrapped, or, due to his official position as Lord Protector of the Vale, which of course is not a part of the North, therefore it could have been seen as an external involvement of the Vale in matters of internal policy. The aforesaid does not preclude the dormition or deactivation of the Alliance. Through the chat LF had with Sansa, it is understood that the Vale has openly declared for the North in terms of Alliances being formed.

Although the Vale and the North share sea borders, it is not an actual part of the North, and there has been no notion that LF proclaimed or bowed to Jon. In strict diplomatic terms, the Vale recognises Jon as KITN but does not take Jon as its King. It is the same as emissaries or foreign official dignitaries being present at a ceremony of a new Head of State; the fact that they are there does not mean that they adopt them as their Head of State in their country of origin.

The Vale can be a standalone Kingdom, as it was pre-Aegon, styled as "Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale". We are not aware of any details, in terms of any Lord from the Vale being sent to the Coronation of Cersei, in order to reaffirm the Vale's position with the Crown, and offer its Lord's fealty.

The North, as it stands, does not seem to have further ambitions, especially Jon. Sansa on the other hand can play a detrimental role in the Vale and in the Riverlands, in terms of being betrothed to Sweetrobin and from there assisting her maternal uncle Edmure to retake Riverrun. It seems though that Arya has done her homework in the Twins, but I will not elaborate with the Riverlands further so as not to be off topic.

With respect to the other internal problems of the Vale, like the Mountain Clans, they can be easily dealt with, if there is determination, otherwise, they can be a serious problem for the Vale itself. The Winter may stop them, or eradicate them because it seems and it appears to me that the Mountain Clans do not have holdfasts or known for their structures, and their survivability relies on pillage and looting. How will they survive the Winter if they have no stock of grains, cattle, and other basic provisions? Are they going to loot and plunder? Whom and what? I see only snow in the Mountain and the Vale, and lack ofr resources will famine them. No weapons are effective against natural phenomena. Another method of surviving is to resort to Cannibalism, I believe it is potentially easy for the Stone Crows to go ballistic against the Black Ears just because someone pissed outside their cave/tent. It seems that nature will overcome the Mountain Clans, and if they are not eradicated their numbers will definitely be depleted, one way or the other.

[messem]

1 hour ago, TheonGreyjoy said:

I think it was pretty clear that the Vale acknowledged Jon as their king. 

It was filmed that way. Yes. But it doesn't make any f-ing sense. They have Lord Robbin and Lord Protector Baelish who didn't agree to that. They came to save him. Without them Jon would be dead. Why would they support a wimp?

A lot of that seems to short-cutting so that D&D don't have to be bothered with politics anymore. 

[Chib]

It might go this way, Sansa takes the Vale after her marriage to Robin and wants to go against Jon because "Winterfell is rightly mine!"

But then Arya will take Riverrun and side with Jon.

Civil war at its finest until Dany comes and we will have another civil war between Targs. LOL

[Rory Snow]

55 minutes ago, The Dew said:

In strict diplomatic terms, the Vale recognises Jon as KITN but does not take Jon as its King.

That's the way I saw it too.

 

[The Dew]

15 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

That's the way I saw it too.

 

Yep! It makes some sense since we are not given anything else.

[NutBurz]

Yep, the Dew got it. They barely even can determine someone as their king without at least a minimum amount of deliberation between Vale Lords, and I find it hard to believe they were all up there in the north. LF which was representing them didn´t say a word. The Vale people cheering would be the equivalent of French people cheering England´s independence. The Vale is an independent actor, effectively, ever since Lysa withdrew there after Jon Arryn died. That´s the very point behind marrying LF to Lysa, from the Lannister´s perspective..

[Greg B]

3 hours ago, messem said:

A lot of that seems to short-cutting so that D&D don't have to be bothered with politics anymore. 

I don't think it's short-cutting: I think we're way beyond civil war and the realm has disintegrated at this point. The time for traditional "politics" is over. The Great Houses have been decimated or outright extinguished and Westeros is effectively a failed state dominated by competing warlords. Littlefinger happens to be the warlord in control of the Vale, for the moment, but the other lords of the Vale obviously don't care much for him. One imagines there are a fair number of them who'd prefer to align themselves with Jon than with Littlefinger and his unstable, weakling puppet, Robin/Robert Arryn. It seems to me LF's position is rather precarious in this environment.

[messem]

26 minutes ago, Greg B said:

I don't think it's short-cutting: I think we're way beyond civil war and the realm has disintegrated at this point. The time for traditional "politics" is over. The Great Houses have been decimated or outright extinguished and Westeros is effectively a failed state dominated by competing warlords.

Yes, but who are these competing warlords?

Dorme: The Sand Pousseys. Don't you think that the houses Yronwood, Dayne, etc. had something to say if some bastards killed their noble lord? Why is there no civil war in Dorne?

Reach: Olenna. She is a woman. In the Reach. Don't you think that the houses Tarly, Hightower, Florent (Do they still exist?),  etc have something to say about who is going to be Lord Paramount? Why is there no civil war in the Reach?

Iron Islands: Well, there we still have something like politics in the show.

Stormlands: No news from there. So, i just assume they have a civil war.

Crownlands/Westerlands: Cersei. Right now Cersei claimed the Throne by force. I'm fine with that. Let's see how that goes on.

Riverlands: Freys. Tullys are gone. Okay settled for now. Walder's sons will open a slot very soon.

North/Vale: Settled for the moment. 

 

Competing warlords is politics as well but the show ignored that there other noble houses outside of the North. You don't have to show them all. The books haven't POVs in a lot of places but the plot moves forward in these places we don't see anyway. In the show the Sand Pousseys kill Doran. The are the power. Olenna is last of the house. She has the power.