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MoonKnight21

Tyrion + Sansa potentially Reunite

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37 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I hate the Imp with a fucking passion. Very true.

Then, there is nothing left to say since he is my fav and George's incidentally lol

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50 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I hate the Imp with a fucking passion. Very true.

The honesty is truly appreciated and hey we all have our favs lol :) I hope not bad feelings, we all have our favourites and otherwise lol ;)  Besides, he is the one I am closer to in real life personality-wise, so if you hated him, likely you will not like me either but one never knows ::)

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On 6/28/2016 at 5:37 PM, Elisabetta Duò said:

The second thing you said is a possibility, especially if they want to turn her into some kind of Elizabeth I,  but the first one is not true. He doesn't think that, neither in the show nor in the books,

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not even in his dark period (it's not in the show) where he's depressed, suicidal, angry with everyone, including Sansa for abandoning him (he never ever thought she framed him).

 

If I recall correctly, in the show, he said something like "whoever is done this, wants my head to roll."  He also totally said that, for once, Cersei could not have been the culprit (Joff's death).  He did consider Sansa as a potential witness in his defence until he learnt of her disappearance.  He is a bright man.  He will put at least some of the pieces together, not necessarily the Tyrells, but LF for sure plus I think Sansa will tell him when they next meet.

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On 7/3/2016 at 5:07 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree. The show did, in fact, raise Tyrion up onto a mighty  pedestal and left out any greyness that each character should have. Instead, tv Tyrion gives alms to the poor, nods his head approvingly when Dany asks for guidance, and gives puppy dog eyes when Dany mysteriously and suddenly has no feelings for Daario- the man who helped give her what she wanted on a silver platter. 

But since others on this thread were criss-crossing book to tv info to make their points, I engaged in the conversation the same way. If that is a problem, please police them as well and I will support that. 

I am sure you are familiar the phrase "actions speak louder than words"? Well, Tyrion doesn't have to literally tell Sansa all of his past deeds because if it's in his constitution to have singers made into stew, strangle his girlfriend, kill his father, rape a slave girl, and hide poison mushrooms away for a future date, then those actions will come back to the surface in some way in the future. And who is to say that Tyrion wouldn't blab to Sansa what he did during a drunken stupor? 

Im sure the fact that they were married in the first place has a subplot in the future, but I highly doubt it is a union for romance or politics.

Who knows, the annulment could be done without Tyrion and he snaps and tries to kill Sansa because he decides "whores go to the Vale". 

Add: this would actually confirm your point how characters hardly get what they want. Tyrion wants Winterfell but loses it. 

With all due respect, you do not understand Tyrion.  He is George's favorite character for a reason, hey, he is not immune to criticism, he is not white but you just don't understand where he comes from, sorry to say.  You are very knowledgeable on the series, hell, beyond most and this is not mean as a criticism but it takes one to know one!  Okay, I do no suffer from dwarfish, nor am I a politician in real life but you don't show an understanding of what being ridiculed for your entire life could do to you.  Not saying all his actions should be justified or Sansa's or anyone's but for all you know the series best, I do think you miss the point George tried to make by creating Tyrion!

When you have another chance to meet George, I beg you, ask him!  I live in the UK and my chances are lesser 

I could go further and say that victims become perpetrators hence I think Sansa and Ty will take LF down in the most horrible way.  Not a la Ramsay, no...  If my perpetrator had done that, would not kill him, leave him to see my success!!!

 

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On 7/3/2016 at 9:00 PM, sweetsunray said:

For me the plot reason why George had Sansa married to Tyrion and has made it impossible as of yet to annul the marriage is because it was unrealistic to have her unwed after she had menstruated, and yet needed her to remain a virgin - aka a man she won't ever fall in love with and will never desire, a man who is decent enough not to rape the girl he thinks he'll be married to for the rest of his life, a man high enough in status to prevent Joffrey from ordering her into his own bed as his mistress. He couldn't have her married to a monster like Joffrey, nor a young man she could relate to and grow to care for. He could have chosen Lancel who was too badly hurt to function, but Lancel was so out of it and politically weak he could not prevent Joffrey from raping her after the marriage. So, she'll remain officially married to Tyrion for as long as is needed to preserve her virgin status... Meanwhile she has gotten a new identity as Alayne to experiment and discover who and what she wants, without compromizing her status. And imo a writer doesn't do that unless he intends that arc to give the girl what she really really wants.

As for Tyrion helping to take LF down... in the books he inherently already did - he armed the mountain clans of the Vale, and I expect them to raise hell in the Vale soon. George loves his domino effects.

wow, but we haven't seen it on page or show yet; okay on show LF is dead lol but bet you anything the food and the tribes come into play lol.  Still your analysis is quite good.  The main thing I disagree with is that Sansa will get her handsome prince from a story...

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On 7/3/2016 at 9:00 PM, sweetsunray said:

For me the plot reason why George had Sansa married to Tyrion and has made it impossible as of yet to annul the marriage is because it was unrealistic to have her unwed after she had menstruated, and yet needed her to remain a virgin - aka a man she won't ever fall in love with and will never desire, a man who is decent enough not to rape the girl he thinks he'll be married to for the rest of his life, a man high enough in status to prevent Joffrey from ordering her into his own bed as his mistress. He couldn't have her married to a monster like Joffrey, nor a young man she could relate to and grow to care for. He could have chosen Lancel who was too badly hurt to function, but Lancel was so out of it and politically weak he could not prevent Joffrey from raping her after the marriage. So, she'll remain officially married to Tyrion for as long as is needed to preserve her virgin status... Meanwhile she has gotten a new identity as Alayne to experiment and discover who and what she wants, without compromizing her status. And imo a writer doesn't do that unless he intends that arc to give the girl what she really really wants.

As for Tyrion helping to take LF down... in the books he inherently already did - he armed the mountain clans of the Vale, and I expect them to raise hell in the Vale soon. George loves his domino effects.

Love the last paragraph!

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On 7/3/2016 at 10:19 PM, Karmarni said:

Sansa is lucky to have survived it all. And as a virgin. It's deep plot armor on Sansa's part. It makes her first sexual experience all the more powerful. Which is why I think it WILL be all the more powerful. I don't think GRRM 'protected' her from the possibility of a negative encounter to turn around and have her experience a negative encounter later on. I think it will be, more or less, positive (what first time is ever truly ecstatic, right?) That she will marry, for real, and have children, I think that's pretty much a given. She's the Stark-blooded momma in the current story. 

Littlefinger and the Harry plot and all that, that's actually Sansa's 'side' story, the learning curve story. That she will ultimately return to Sansa's story, and not live out Alayne's side-story, seems evident. Littlefinger and Harry represent an inverted, perverted Ned and Joffrey from her real story. But the characters from her 'real' story matter. And Tyrion might come into it as a hurdle or a means to an end later on. But I think of Sansa as the 'songs and stories girl.' That she would get her own song and story seems a given to me. And no, it won’t be a fairytale kind of story, GRRM has shown that by his repeated use of the device that what the singers sing and storytellers write is far from the actual truth. However, for Sansa, who likes the kissing stories best and those of knightly valor, she for whom the Tourney of the Hand was the dreamiest days in her life - who is the knight, the one that will be memorable, the one with the nick just like all those knights from her stories? Sandor, the Hound. And a Hound. From the moment his 'handle' was referenced, what with all the sigils representing important elements of the story, it seemed he'd go with the wolves better than the lions (and my thought was played out by the Hound, no less, in ASoS). It all adds up. In the end, from plot, characterization, story elements, action, conflict and resolution viewpoint, this ‘song and story’ is playing out across the novels. It is the central story element catering to romance that this series has. 

That cannot, of course, be said for Tyrion and Sansa.

I agree with all you said, but failing what she said when they where married first, why not???  The guy is little but charming and skilled, more so than Sandor?  Possibly a better lover...

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On 7/4/2016 at 2:25 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

I think you are reaching a bit here and trying to twist words.

If Tyrion and Sansa met up again, books and show, Tyrion probably would be pissed that she took off after the poisoning of Joffery and left Tyrion and Tyrion alone to take the heat for the regicide. We, the readers and viewers, know the true story. So yes, Tyrion gets back to Westeros (as we see him doing on the show) and Sansa is outed- the Vale in the books, Winterfell the show- and he agrees or encourages a campaign there with his eye on his prize. Whores go the the Vale (Winterfell show).

And what does Sansa have to confess? Her love of lemon cakes and needing to size up a dress number? No. Sansa is a virginal , religious teenager who holds her virtue close to her heart. Tv Sansa has nothing to confess... but she has sorta done that with Jon with the whole "sorry I hid the Vale army from you', and Rickon and all. That "cat" is out of the bag--- get it? Cat!

No, Martin only writes what the characters tell him. His stories are without a doubt character driven- NOT plot driven. He says that and any other writer and reader can see that. It is why his '93 outline is so different. GRRM has made that statement many times.

Adding: The show is plot driven. Cogman even describes it here

"Character X" starts at "blank" and we want him or her to end up at "blank."

lol yes he writes what the characters tell him, but who created the characters in the first place???  They are all a part of him, like with every author and hey he likes my fav best!!!  He may well kill him because that would be nice from a literature point of view, but I don't think he is trying to drone on current date morals onto us but if anything creating debate

 

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On 7/4/2016 at 3:54 PM, sweetsunray said:

LongRider's scene does not mock the people who support certain ships, but shows how the Tyrion-Sansa ship itself is plain ridiculous. The fictional scene says nothing about shippers, but makes a thorough point about the ship - that it is not viable for either Sansa or Tyrion, not personally, not politically.

until we have evidence with that final book it is all debatable!

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On 7/4/2016 at 7:00 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Just one more thing. 

I have been thinking on some other comments posted that say Sansa needs Tyrion to bring down Littlefinger. I object to this as well. 

The main purpose of Sansa's arc, like Jon and Arya (Rickon?), is to be put into a situation that trains them for their own future. They need to survive these tests, learn from them and come out the otherside intelligent and independent from negative outside forces  (but the pack survives). 

Sansa, book and tv, should be able to "kill off" LF on her own. Maybe not by wielding the blade herself, she learned from Petyr to never weild the blade yourself, but to outwit LF and bring him down using his own methods against him. 

Isn't that what the rape of the show was to do, empower her. And in the Vale Sansa is learning by other means. Littlefinger is Sansa's monster to slay. And in both book and show, again, the Hound is being geographically moved closer to Sansa. Tyrion isn't. 

If the two meet again, it won't be pleasant. Neither one has a reason to love, like or trust the other. And by then, so much of  what could keep them together politically will have been decimated anyway, so there's no point. 

she needs unless Sandor or Tyrion or someone to confirm how LF betrayed her dad in the first book.  This is not about feminism and agency it is about Varys sort of knowledge lol  The village fool would do if he/she had the knowledge lol!

 

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On 7/5/2016 at 5:40 AM, Karmarni said:

I am surprised, to say the least, that there are those on this thread who want to run other posters down, call them obsessive, unreasonable and childish; then tell them to stop posting. That's not friendly, not polite and does not help keep an open discourse. Being told to NOT post anywhere on this forum IS, IN AND OF ITSELF, completely unreasonable.

Whoever did that to you I totally back you; you have the right to express opinions without being put down or made a fool off lol <3

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On 7/5/2016 at 11:32 PM, sweetsunray said:

What foreshadowing for Tyrion? There is no foreshadowing whatsoever for Tyrion to be Sansa's husband by the end of the books. You keep saying that, but I haven't seen any real arguments made about Tyrion being foreshadowed as Sansa's endgame marriage or love interest. George himself has said that you can figure out the big plotlines in aGoT. Sansa doesn't even think about Tyrion then. Instead we have a tourney where Sansa is over the moon by a rose given to her by the Knight of Flowers, but she hopes Sandor wins the tourney anyway. And Sansa thinking that Tyrion was kind to her is not foreshadowing. 

BTW, I'm like JS4P in that until perhaps last fall I didn't give much thought on Sandor, wasn't even sure he'd return from the QI. Never gave Tyrion mcuh of a chance though. I wasn't all that caught up in Sansa's chapters, not analytically and not with regards to foreshadowing. Once you do start to analyse Sansa's chapters it becomes stark clear who's her main man. Sandor is present in each and every chapter of Sansa somehow, whether she's Alayne or not, from the very beginning of Sansa's first chapter.

Mayhaps you take things a little too literally but I could be wrong...

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On 7/6/2016 at 10:33 PM, sweetsunray said:

The marriage of Elizabeth of York with Henry Tudor is not a foreshadowing at all. There is a difference between inferring a parallel to history and mythology outside of the canon-world of a book and actual "foreshadowing". While George undeniably uses historical and mythological sources and incorporates them as themes in many of his main and secondary characters, he does not do a 1:1, and he often uses a twist. Henry Tudor was not just a lord's heir of a rivaling family. He was a king. Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor was actually set up between Sansa and Joffrey, with Joffey as Henry Tudor, and the twist that Sansa-Elizabeth escapes the betrothal and the marriage to Joffrey AND Tyrion Tudor.

And then you apply a twisted interpretation to one line that Sansa says to Tyrion - "What if I never want to?" - isolating it completely out of its context. At the most that's "teasing" by the author. It's isn't foreshadowing, certainly not when a paragraph before that you have "pity is the death of desire". What you're doing is taking one line, forget the whole scene in which is it said, with paragraph after paragraph of Sansa "trying to want to" but with each step concluding she doesn't want to. Her line is not a tease that comes out of nowhere. It is her conclusion of all the precedes it. If an actual line said is a foreshadowing then George does this by making the statement stand out against the context - it jarrs in the context. Jon's line to Arya is one such jarring line (though I always think "Jon knows nothing" as an addendum to it) as is Ned's to Arya about marrying a king. Foreshadowing lines are jarring and odd within the narrative and context, in order to draw attention to it. That is absolutely not the case with Sansa's line to Tyrion. It very much fits the whole context of the scene and is said as a conclusion.

So you bring two arguments forward that complely miss the mark on being "literary foreshadowing", let alone George's type of foreshadowing, and also claim there's "lots" of it? Again, none of what you argued is literary foreshadowing and it certainly is not even a lot of not-foreshadowing.

assuming Sansa is a static character who will never change her mind...

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@Morgana Lannister wow, you have been busy in this show thread today. It is an old thread, almost two years old, and this happens to be just about when I totally stopped watching the show because it makes no sense within it's own fanfiction world. I have to use my spare time wisely, and this show just doesn't do it at all for me anymore.

That said, I follow where the text leads me, and the details the author says. For instance, yes, he says Tyrion is a favorite of his, however, he says that Samwell is the he identifies with because Sam is most like him. :)

And George says his Tyrion (not sanctified show Tyrion) is a villain.

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

So anyway, this tidbit said, I cannot add anything else to the show-side conversation because I stopped watching back in season 6.

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21 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Morgana Lannister wow, you have been busy in this show thread today. It is an old thread, almost two years old, and this happens to be just about when I totally stopped watching the show because it makes no sense within it's own fanfiction world. I have to use my spare time wisely, and this show just doesn't do it at all for me anymore.

That said, I follow where the text leads me, and the details the author says. For instance, yes, he says Tyrion is a favorite of his, however, he says that Samwell is the he identifies with because Sam is most like him. :)

And George says his Tyrion (not sanctified show Tyrion) is a villain.

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

So anyway, this tidbit said, I cannot add anything else to the show-side conversation because I stopped watching back in season 6.

Totally agree and I think Sam will do the epilogue.  Love the idea actually! x

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21 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Morgana Lannister wow, you have been busy in this show thread today. It is an old thread, almost two years old, and this happens to be just about when I totally stopped watching the show because it makes no sense within it's own fanfiction world. I have to use my spare time wisely, and this show just doesn't do it at all for me anymore.

That said, I follow where the text leads me, and the details the author says. For instance, yes, he says Tyrion is a favorite of his, however, he says that Samwell is the he identifies with because Sam is most like him. :)

And George says his Tyrion (not sanctified show Tyrion) is a villain.

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

So anyway, this tidbit said, I cannot add anything else to the show-side conversation because I stopped watching back in season 6.

We have not seen the final text; lol hope to see it in my lifetime lol but just as Arya is right now darker than dark, she won't stay that way; neither would Tyrion.  I think these two characters are very dear to the author and they will do wrong, for sure, up to a point...  I believe Tyrion and Arya are the only characters who have "total plot armour" because they have a 3 phase dynamic, as opposed to 2 with most (say Jaime, from baddy to goody... almost etc; Sansa: from shallow to nice...) they both are going from nice to nasty to middle but hugely complex! IMHO lol

I agree with you a great villain is a great character and unlike Ramsay, LF is one for instance, those guys are just grey without a hope of being villains to sing a song about...

Furthermore what Martin said is hugely ambiguous on purpose: either a good villain in literally terms or a villain that has some good?? He loves to play with that sort of thing but whatever the weather hey, I love him you hate him... cool otherwise we could yet be creating more trouble for the 7 Kingdoms lol ;)

 

 

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23 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Morgana Lannister wow, you have been busy in this show thread today. It is an old thread, almost two years old, and this happens to be just about when I totally stopped watching the show because it makes no sense within it's own fanfiction world. I have to use my spare time wisely, and this show just doesn't do it at all for me anymore.

That said, I follow where the text leads me, and the details the author says. For instance, yes, he says Tyrion is a favorite of his, however, he says that Samwell is the he identifies with because Sam is most like him. :)

And George says his Tyrion (not sanctified show Tyrion) is a villain.

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

So anyway, this tidbit said, I cannot add anything else to the show-side conversation because I stopped watching back in season 6.

then, stop commenting here since this is show thead,,,,,

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On 5/2/2018 at 1:57 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

@Morgana Lannister wow, you have been busy in this show thread today. It is an old thread, almost two years old, and this happens to be just about when I totally stopped watching the show because it makes no sense within it's own fanfiction world. I have to use my spare time wisely, and this show just doesn't do it at all for me anymore.

That said, I follow where the text leads me, and the details the author says. For instance, yes, he says Tyrion is a favorite of his, however, he says that Samwell is the he identifies with because Sam is most like him. :)

And George says his Tyrion (not sanctified show Tyrion) is a villain.

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

So anyway, this tidbit said, I cannot add anything else to the show-side conversation because I stopped watching back in season 6.

Oh, I remember a very early interview where he literally said that he would like to be Tyrion but he is Sam. I love them both and, granted Sam is far more noble and still not bad at politics considering he got Jon elected by playing politics...

Tyrion has been put into situations that realistically nobody would survive as a saint type, to me the worse he did actually was the Blackwater, but had he not done it, Cercei would had (she employed the pyromancers first) and possibly out of control lol.  Out of topic here but for me the worse (and hugely popular) of the 5 Kings was Stannis, the more I re-read the guy might have been fair to Davos but OMG!!! after Joff and whatever mad Euron does, IMHO the very, very worse indeed!!! ;)  lol it could just be that we happen to have very different taste in men and government ;)

:)

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