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Why did the Show discard Robb's will, only to arrive at the same outcome less credibly?


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Sansa was Jon´s Sam. She´s clearly aprehensive when the Lords start declaring for Jon, and they don´t even mention her standing right there. We can choose to take from it that they forgot about the only Stark in the room, or that they had already arranged things with the only Stark in the room.

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Why did they basically throw out books 4 and 5 and substitute it with a bunch of blathering nonsense? They still took two years to tell the story they did and it is full of blithering nonsense. Why they didn't find a way to use the storylines in the books is beyond me. I have been quite annoyed at how they have handled the northern storyline over the past two years. Ending up declaring Jon KitN just doesn't make any sense from the path they took.

1)  They married Sansa to Ramsay in order to placate the northern lords who were still loyal to the Starks. Turns out, the northern lords didn't care about the Starks and cared even less about Sansa. This means the only part of the Winterfell storyline they kept from the books is Ramsay raping his wife. Although I do understand Sansa's motive for marrying Ramsay better after this season. Seriously, if he hadn't been so terrible to her she might have actually be loyal to him.

2)  Most of the northern lords didn't give a shit about Jon, Sansa, Rickon or Winterfell returning to the Starks. So when Jon's army was almost wiped out they had LF ride in with the Vale army to rescue them. Making Ramsay the hero of last season and LF the hero of this season is something that disgusts me so much I don't even want to get start...

3)  Anyhow, after LF rescues Jon the northern lords decide they must have Jon as their king. Why? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Because of this it was very hard to connect to the scene emotionally. Having their characters do 180 motivationally from episode to episode lowers the quality of the show.

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1 hour ago, bent branch said:

They married Sansa to Ramsay in order to placate the northern lords who were still loyal to the Starks. Turns out, the northern lords didn't care about the Starks and cared even less about Sansa.

It´s not that simple. Sansa married to one of the strongest families which also holds Winterfell is one thing. Sansa alone with her bastard brother and a bunch of Wildings is another thing. And Sansa inside the retaken Winterfell with the Vale army at her back is another very different thing.

 

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

Most of the northern lords didn't give a shit about Jon, Sansa, Rickon or Winterfell returning to the Starks.

They could have given many shits, they were just not willing to give their lives for a seemingly lost cause. They say as much.

 

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

Making Ramsay the hero of last season and LF the hero of this season is something that disgusts me so much I don't even want to get start...

I think you´ll be more comfortable if you stop looking for heroes in this story. You sound a little like young Sansa.

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

Anyhow, after LF rescues Jon the northern lords decide they must have Jon as their king. Why? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I agree it´s a stretch. The way I see it, it´s most easily explained by Sansa having made a small campaign in Jon´s favor in the fashion of what we´ve been shown Sam doing at the wall. If we hadn´t seen the steps Sam took, the end result would look similar, Jon becoming an unlikely Lord Commander despite his age based on battles and name.

The North is looking for leadership, so that they would proclaim someone as their leader after such a pivotal turn of events is just logical.

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At least in visual storytelling, what we got was much better than another paper shield. Lords are hard to come by in the North these days, winter has come, and they've got this guy who became the youngest lord commander of the Night's Watch, infiltrated Mance Rayder's army, climbed the Wall, defended the Wall, killed a White Walker in single combat, died and returned from the dead to recapture Winterfell with the last of the giants at his side. That's just the true stuff -- who knows what other things they're saying about him in the North.

He's a hero right out the sagas. Pretty strong candidate, all things considered. Maybe there should have been a more proper accounting of his legend in the great hall--would have been a nice role for Davos this time--but it worked for me.

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If Sansa is not a Stark anymore, why did she or Littlefinger not ever bring this fact up in Molestown or the Godswood? Sansa could have been like "you married me off to a Bolton so I no longer have a Stark name or any inheritance, I hate you!" something like that because including the abuse she took, her name is forever gone with that marriage and LF knew this - double burn.

Sansa has yet another reason to hate Littlefinger or else she would have been able to claim Winterfell if she wanted. Now she is viewed as damaged goods, Lyanna Mormont pointed that out.

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3 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

He didn't rally the North. He couldn't even convince a little girl to fight for him. Davos had to do it. 

In fact, Jon only rallied 300 men out of the North which 10 times less than Book Stannis.

The North had no sympathy for the Starks before Winterfell why would they have it afterwards. 

The Starks just slaughtered half the North trying to take back their home.

That would probably be a good argument given they're likely to slaughter the other half if they DON'T acknowledge him.

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3 hours ago, jrod said:

I actually like it this way better.  Jon has "earned" the lords' trust and for them to declare him KitN, the will would just means he would have inherited the title.  I would rather it that Jon did something to become KitN rather than it just being given to him by Robb's decree.

What did he do? Sansa won that battle. Jon fucked it up catastrophically.

 

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26 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

It´s not that simple. Sansa married to one of the strongest families which also holds Winterfell is one thing. Sansa alone with her bastard brother and a bunch of Wildings is another thing. And Sansa inside the retaken Winterfell with the Vale army at her back is another very different thing.

 

They could have given many shits, they were just not willing to give their lives for a seemingly lost cause. They say as much.

 

I think you´ll be more comfortable if you stop looking for heroes in this story. You sound a little like young Sansa.

I agree it´s a stretch. The way I see it, it´s most easily explained by Sansa having made a small campaign in Jon´s favor in the fashion of what we´ve been shown Sam doing at the wall. If we hadn´t seen the steps Sam took, the end result would look similar, Jon becoming an unlikely Lord Commander despite his age based on battles and name.

The North is looking for leadership, so that they would proclaim someone as their leader after such a pivotal turn of events is just logical.

I don't see what Sansa has to do with anything. The only person interested in Sansa is LF. D&D have made that clear. And if you didn't understand that they explained in the after show they do.

Actually, they didn't they said that. Even having lords go so far as to tell a different version of events than what happened in the show. For some reason D&D wanted to make the Stark name not very influential in the north this season. I really don't understand why if they were heading toward making Jon KitN, but there you have it.

I am not making the story a simple fairytale of the type Sansa would believe. That is D&D themselves. In their storyline, Stannis is so EVUL!!!!!, that the heroic Ramsay Bolton and his twenty good men are needed to take him out. This moronic storyline doesn't belong to me or to GRRM. And now this season Ramsay is so invincible that they need LF to come in a rescue them. Neither I nor GRRM are the ones who over power-upped Ramsay Bolton. That again would be D&D. When you create simplistic villians, you create simplistic stories about how they are defeated.

Sansa did not have a small campaign in Jon's favor. It is obvious that Sansa feels Jon is her rival. This is the way I read this season. I even waited and watched the after show (which I generally hate) to see what D&D had to say about the situation and it is clear they intended Sansa to have adversarial feelings toward Jon.

If the North is looking for leadership, why didn't they just choose Lyanna Mormont since they seem to do what she tells them too. Really, there was no logical reason for them to choose Jon over anyone else. They should have just had a kingsmoot. At least that way there would have been something to base the northern lords choosing Jon as their king after just rejecting him two episodes ago.

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2 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Sansa was Jon´s Sam. She´s clearly aprehensive when the Lords start declaring for Jon, and they don´t even mention her standing right there. We can choose to take from it that they forgot about the only Stark in the room, or that they had already arranged things with the only Stark in the room.

That may be true. Sansa didn't seem all that upset with Lady Mormont's initial declaration (not as shocked as Jon looked). But Sansa did share a look with Little Finger that suggests she wasn't that happy with it. It would be nice if this was her plan all along as in a counter play to Little Finger (as if the Vale Lords declare for Jon, Little Finger suddenly loses his control and power).

We know for a fact that Jon being declared KitN foils LF and he will not sit idly by. Which means LF will probably be dead next season (as such foes will need to be cleared out before the long night).

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19 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I don't see what Sansa has to do with anything. The only person interested in Sansa is LF.

 

19 minutes ago, bent branch said:

In their storyline, Stannis is so EVUL

 

19 minutes ago, bent branch said:

If the North is looking for leadership, why didn't they just choose Lyanna Mormont since they seem to do what she tells them too.

If you believe that, I´m content we interpret things differently.

Í´ll just try to clear some things, feel free to ignore.

19 minutes ago, bent branch said:

that the heroic Ramsay Bolton and his twenty good men are needed to take him out.

The twenty good men attacked provision wagons at night to undermine Stannis´ army morale. That´s not what took him out at all, that´s absolutely normal during war, and it´s usually not as heroic as it is cowardly.

 

19 minutes ago, bent branch said:

It is obvious that Sansa feels Jon is her rival.

As much as I admire you for seeing through Sansa, the issue is that she´s infinetely more worried about LF than about Jon. If she doesn´t put Jon in the throne of Winterfel, the most likely scenario would be for LF to get up in the Main Hall and ask for Sansa´s hand in marriage for little Robin, which she would be in a hard spot to refuse. That would make her Regent and Warden of the North and submitted to the Vale politically, as well as it would put Winterfell under the Arryns through her son.

She can´t have that, that´s exactly everything LF wanted ever since he sent her there.

Her last look to him is to show that´s her victory over him, imo of course.

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1 hour ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Why did the show bother to have Sansa get raped last year when her main motivation going into this year is saving Rickon. They could of done this all last year and that answer to that is simply D&D let their bias get in the way of logical story telling

It wasn't. She gave up on Rickon before the fight. She was in danger as long as Ramsay was Warden of the North.

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Great points, and great conversation in here.

Hey, just THINK of all the great stuff they could have done on the show if they had (a) NOT invented the character of Roz, and (b) just followed the books more closely!!!

Indeed, I'm pretty sure if they had done that, they would NOT have basically run out of new material last year.

(In fact, I've been hearing there will only be 7 episodes in Season 7, and 6 episodes in Season 8. Is this true?!?!?!  My goodness, they could have done at least 8 or 9 full seasons just with the material in Books 1 through 6, if they had NOT raced through the books and hacked out so much.)

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8 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

Here are my thought ...for what they are worth....  :-)

At the end of the day Robb's will is only a scrap of paper.  The Lord of Winterfell or Warden of the North or King in/of the North is whomever the Northern Lords support or accept.  'Legitimacy' is the same ... and otherwise really is irrelevant.  the concept is one to ensure an orderly transfer of power with minimal 'civil wars' and infighting in a society like we find in westeros.  it also makes such transfer predictable.  And also provides levers of control and influence to outside powers/forces such as the Faith and the Iron Throne.

Jon was elected King and 'legitimized' in what would seem to the Old Way -- by an open election and acclamation of the nothern nobility.  he earned it, in their eyes.  And Robb failed them.  He took their sons south to a 'foreign war', got them all killed, and failed to do his real job and protect them from invaders like the Ironborn.  Robb's will would be ignored most likely.

In addition, by declaring a 'King in the North' the northmen have reasserted their claim to independence of the Iron Throne.  Whatever Kings Landing says re. 'legitimacy' would not matter one jot to the North.

so ... to me, at least ... the Lords of the North electing Jon and swearing their allegience is totally believable and justifiable. Including scenes re. Robb's will would just end up being a waste of screen time.   ;-)

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Sansa's marriage with Tyrion is invalid according to the laws of Westeros as it never was consumed. She is Ramsay's widow technically. Now, the Show showed us that Jon deserved to become KITN which is much more rewarding than finding a piece of paper signed by Robb. 

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I agree with the OP - they could have added Robb's will easily, but did not, the only possible reason is to drag out the S7 storyline with Littlefinger/Sansa/Jon tensions rising, and to get a shocking twist in the end (which is Sansa killing Littlefinger).

 

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If Robs will survived and actually named Jon as heir then what the hell have the lords who have a copy been doing? 

Being chosen by the lords make perfect sense. Lyanna Mormont played into the shame the northern lords had. They didn't forget, they remembered and were too craven to do anything. 

Jon Snow came and tried to recue the rightful lord. Nearly through away his life for it. That proves his bravery and honor. He wasn't trying to crown himself. He was saving his family and getting vengeance for the north. While they all sat there scared. Worse he doesn't even rub it in their faces.

Jon also has a plan to fight the white walkers. He's just a natural leader. His father's (not blood but true father anyway) son. 

There has never been a Queen in her own right ruler of the seven kingdoms or the north. There has never been Lady in her own right of Winterfel. Sansa has questionable loyalties, from the point of view of the other lords. She's a young girl that never led anything. Nobody wants her in charge of making choices. Right or wrong that's how it was going to be. 

Plus she'd have to stay single or her lands and lower would be controlled by her husband. Jon Snow is the obvious choice here. 

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