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Why did the Show discard Robb's will, only to arrive at the same outcome less credibly?


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54 minutes ago, illinifan said:

"Power resides where men believe it resides; it is a trick, a shadow on the wall.." Varys.

Jon being acclaimed king by the Northern Lords makes sense from a storytelling, visual, and thematic perspective.  They were placing their faith in him, not in a piece of paper written by a dead man.  I also like that Jon looked overwhelmed by the situation and didn't know how to play it.  

Just like he looked overwhelmed at so many other situations in the Show. This in contrast with Daenerys the goddess who is depicted as being supremely confident in every possible situation. I don't enjoy that juxtaposition that the Show has forced on us.

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2 hours ago, jrod said:

 Again he was the only person (along with Sansa) that had the courage to stand up to the Boltons and take back the North from them and try to rally an army.  Again tactically it was a huge mistake, but he showed the love and dedication to his family (a family they all know he wasn't always a complete part of because he was a bastard) by trying to save Rickon, mistake or not from a battle standpoint.  And he did that all without any grand scheme.  He wasn't angling to be Lord Commander, or KitN or even Lord of Winterfell, he did it because it was the right thing to do.

Except "love and dedication" doesn't win wars, an army and good generalship does. Jon had neither of them and Sansa had all of it (through the Knights of the Vale), but Jon was chosen because plot.

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11 hours ago, Grizzly Mormont said:
8 minutes ago, Trickrs said:

Except "love and dedication" doesn't win wars, an army and good generalship does. Jon had neither of them and Sansa had all of it (through the Knights of the Vale), but Jon was chosen because plot.

.

Being a king is about more than just good army/general qualities.  Robert was an amazing warrior by all accounts and apparently a good commander who led his men to a victory at the Trident, how good of a king was he?

Jon has many other qualities that lead men to follow him.  By all accounts he understands tactics and strategy, and is good at leading men in general.  Yes he screwed up in the fight against the Boltons, but believe many would understand and respect why he made the bad decision.

People keep going back to that one admittedly very bad decision to charge out after Rickon was killed as his only defining characteristic.  When you read through all he has done, both on and off the battlefield, and his personality, it makes sense why the Northern lords who were too afraid to stand with him would now come to respect him.

(by the way the quote thing keeps acting up on me and putting in random other people's posts like I'm trying to quote them).

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5 minutes ago, The hand that holds Dawn said:

Because D&D are frigging retards and appear to be completely "winging it".....

I think that's the Gardener. D&D actually seem to have a plan to finish the story, probably because that's required for multimillion dollar television productions.

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36 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just like he looked overwhelmed at so many other situations in the Show. This in contrast with Daenerys the goddess who is depicted as being supremely confident in every possible situation. I don't enjoy that juxtaposition that the Show has forced on us.

Looking shocked and overwhelmed about the situation strikes me as the correct way to play that.  Or would you prefer Jon to be greedily coveting power?  I think that he ends up quite enjoying that he got everything he wished for as a child, but he is definitely swept ip in the moment.

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30 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just like he looked overwhelmed at so many other situations in the Show. This in contrast with Daenerys the goddess who is depicted as being supremely confident in every possible situation. I don't enjoy that juxtaposition that the Show has forced on us.

Time to quit perhaps?

No offense but it's been 4 seasons now that they're doing this kind of juxtaposition, they're not going to change that dynamic until J&D meet.

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1 hour ago, illinifan said:

"Power resides where men believe it resides; it is a trick, a shadow on the wall.." Varys.

Jon being acclaimed king by the Northern Lords makes sense from a storytelling, visual, and thematic perspective. 

What is "a visual perspective" in this case?

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2 minutes ago, Greg B said:

I think that's the Gardener. D&D actually seem to have a plan to finish the story, probably because that's required for multimillion dollar television productions.

They could finish it in one episode the way people teleport to one place or another and kill each other without repercussions, nothing great about them having an ending planned

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45 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just like he looked overwhelmed at so many other situations in the Show. This in contrast with Daenerys the goddess who is depicted as being supremely confident in every possible situation. I don't enjoy that juxtaposition that the Show has forced on us.

Looking shocked and overwhelmed about the situation strikes me as the correct way to play that.  Or would you prefer Jon to be greedily coveting power?  I think that he ends up quite enjoying that he got everything he wished for as a child, but he is definitely swept in the moment.

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1 minute ago, Greg B said:

No, there's not really anything great about them moving the story forward, toward that ending, on schedule. That's just sort of doing their job. And yet...

Well its considerably easy to move towards an ending when you throw logic out the window for most things, make people appear wherever you want with no regard for time, and allow your plot to dictate your characters actions despite their established personalities. This episode was full of these things but enjoyable still let's not act like George should be expected to do these things.

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16 hours ago, sifth said:

How could Sansa even marry Ramsay with Tyrion still alive? Seriously this has been an issue with me for a while now. I mean sure Sansa getting raped by her husband was sick and disturbing as hell, but it never made sense to me how she could marry that psycho in the first place.

The marriage was never consummated.  The book makes a point that until consummation, a marriage can be annulled.  Not sure what paper work/approval you would need though to be officially annulled, or if the couple can simply walk away.

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I'm still laughing at people declaring that Sansa has great leadership. She commands an army before? She goes out to battle before? Leadership in what? Seriously? She understands Ramsay in the show because D&D forced her into his arm but in the book she never even met him. And what's the point of Sansa being Queen in the north against WW? They don't play politics, sorry. The North don't need political game right now. They need to survive.

Dump and Dumper made Jon so stupid in episode 9 mostly to empower Sansa (and pay back to her fan) because they fxxxed up her story arc in season 5. I'm not surprised that in the book it would play out pretty much differently and the situation Jon is hailed as King in the North would be much different, more reasonable and realistic. There is no doubt he will be hailed as King in the North in the book as well. It's a big event I think Martin did tell D&D about Jon's arc. 

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1 minute ago, watcher of the night said:

He fought for a just cause, he risked his life, he risked everything, while everyone else (relevant to the story) were sitting in safety including Sansa and LF.

And he lost miserably, it seems the supposedly harsh Northmen are just satisfied if you try. Risking your life doesn't mean as much when the guy your fighting probably intended to kill you regardless, the battle was as much self preservation as "just cause" against Ramsay.

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8 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I'm still laughing at people declaring that Sansa has great leadership. She commands an army before? She goes out to battle before? Leadership in what? Seriously? She understands Ramsay in the show because D&D forced her into his arm but in the book she never even met him. And what's the point of Sansa being Queen in the north against WW? They don't play politics, sorry. The North don't need political game right now. They need to survive.

Dump and Dumper made Jon so stupid in episode 9 mostly to empower Sansa (and pay back to her fan) because they fxxxed up her story arc in season 5. I'm not surprised that in the book it would play out pretty much differently and the situation Jon is hailed as King in the North would be much different, more reasonable and realistic. There is no doubt he will be hailed as King in the North in the book as well. It's a big event I think Martin did tell D&D about Jon's arc. 

Jon was a moron on the show way before that episode. Hell, he is quite the dumbass in the books too.

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1 minute ago, Boarsbane said:

And he lost miserably, it seems the supposedly harsh Northmen are just satisfied if you try. Risking your life doesn't mean as much when the guy your fighting probably intended to kill you regardless, the battle was as much self preservation as "just cause" against Ramsay.

Risking your life means that you are willing to fight for your people and that is one desirable quality of a leader (especially up North).

And no it was not a self-preservation (for Jon). Jon was nudged into this by Sansa ("I will take Winterfell back alone if necessary", LOL) and he explicitely said he is too tired to fight.

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