Jon Snow, King of the north and Vale

[Masha]

12 minutes ago, DanïelNorth said:

I don't think Bran wants Winterfell, he knows his purpose is to use his greenseeing abilities to aid in the War for the Dawn. He'll probably wants Jon to unite the realm against the WW and reveal his parentage. Though they will need some real evidence first for that to happen.

I don't think Bran wants WF or Kingship, he would want to push Jon to get to Iron Throne (in order to unite the realm and get the forces needed to fight WW), but he is not going to be contesting WF against Jon or Sansa.

 

2 minutes ago, DanïelNorth said:

Aye, Robin won't complain about it now that Sansa is safe again. She might even convince him to swear fealty to Jon.

Not if LF has his way, he probably will convince Robyn that Jon stole Sansa's throne.

[jrod]

17 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I personally think that King in the north doesn't mean Lord of Winterfell, I could be wrong but they never explained what's  lord of Winterfell, warden of North and the king in the north in the show, it seems so complicated

Show didn't explain it real well.  "Warden of...." is mostly an honorary title, and can really go to anyone in that region.  Think the "Warden of...." is mostly if they need to raise an army and defend that region for the king, they are in charge, so there isn't any in-fighting amongst the lords who should lead that army.  

So really now in the North there wouldn't really be a "Warden of the North" anymore in the sense that there was before.  Jon could be KitN from anywhere, like take the Dreadfort as his seat.  But that isn't really feasible since the Kings of Winter had Winterfell as their seat for thousands of years.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

8 minutes ago, Masha said:

Not if LF has his way, he probably will convince Robyn that Jon stole Sansa's throne.

Yeap I can see that happens next season. However it's Sansa who refused the position as lady of Winterfell (to Jon regardless) so it will be funny if next season she turns around 180 degrees and say "I want to be queen of the north". Well Jon can always give her Winterfell because he did say so. If she decides to marry Robin and take Vale knights with her it's another matter.

[Les Météores D]

At this point it's clear that the Northerners believe Jon since he shut Cerwin up real quick about his strategy against "winter". That's what they were debating when Royce said he didn't want to ally with the wildlings. Jon has authority regarding the WW threat, which is why Lyanna Mormont declared him king and why the others followed. 

Of course LF is going to messed that up.

[Future Null Infinity]

5 minutes ago, jrod said:

Show didn't explain it real well.  "Warden of...." is mostly an honorary title, and can really go to anyone in that region.  Think the "Warden of...." is mostly if they need to raise an army and defend that region for the king, they are in charge, so there isn't any in-fighting amongst the lords who should lead that army.  

So really now in the North there wouldn't really be a "Warden of the North" anymore in the sense that there was before.  Jon could be KitN from anywhere, like take the Dreadfort as his seat.  But that isn't really feasible since the Kings of Winter had Winterfell as their seat for thousands of years.

Thank you for the answer

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, BulletTooth_Tony said:

I believe White Walkers, at this point and this far removed from the Long Night, are seen as nothing more than a scary story to get your kids to stay in bed at night.  All of the houses seem to have replaced the danger they represent, with the wildlings that live north of the wall -- which is why you see people like Randyll Tarly and Bronze Yohn Royce so angry about the wildlings, even though they're so far removed from the area, Tarly especially.  And the reason we're given from the Umber's is they're the furthest to the north and most likely to deal with the perceived enemy, the wildlings.  They're in for a huge shock.

I think this is one best explained by the books as a source.  Bronze Yohn wanted to commit the Knights of the Vale to Robb Stark to avenge Ned.  He and Ned were good friends from their time growing up, since Ned was fostered in the Eyrie.  To keep this logic going, Lysa stopped him from leading the army out to support him; Lysa no longer stands in his way, so he's doing what he wanted to do initially... join the fight behind Ned's "son."

Except that's not the explanation used in the books. It's probably true that Yohn Royce wanted to avenge Ned. However, the reason given for the Vale lords being angry is that they suspected that the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn (abd probably Robert too). Nothing suggests that they wanted Robb to be their King and they have even less reason to want Jon as their King. What has he done? He's not related to them, he's a pagan (from their perspective), he's First Man where as most of the Vale in Andal, unlike the Riverlands, the Vale has been independent and under the control of the Arryns for 6000 years and he lost his only battle and needed the Vale to rescue him. In that scene, count the number of times they mention the Vale. It's very few. Lyanna's speech in emulation of the Greatjon, urging the Lords to swear fealty to Jon Snow is all about their ancient connection to the Stark family. That's fine for the Northmen, but the Vale doesn't have that.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Don't think the Vale Lords swore allegiance at all

Indeed they seem to be setting the stage for a split over the Wildlings going by Royces opening comments of the scene

In this case I expect Sansa will be Queen of RL and Vale, and Jon over the North

[Mad Queen]

It makes zero sense to me that even the Northmen would want as King in the North some Stark bastard they barely knew with no legitimate claim to anything. They should all be trying to marry Sansa and become the next Lord of Winterfell. Why Jon? He lost the battle, Davos was the real commander. All Jon did was a stupid suicide run toward Ramsay. I don't think that impressed anyone. Unless Sansa chooses to support him, Jon has just become such a traitorous bastard, literally. I don't think Jon would do that to his sister (not to mention Bran, who is the true Lord of Winterfell). It seems like bad writing to me.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

49 minutes ago, Mad Queen said:

It makes zero sense to me that even the Northmen would want as King in the North some Stark bastard they barely knew with no legitimate claim to anything. They should all be trying to marry Sansa and become the next Lord of Winterfell. Why Jon? He lost the battle, Davos was the real commander. All Jon did was a stupid suicide run toward Ramsay. I don't think that impressed anyone. Unless Sansa chooses to support him, Jon has just become such a traitorous bastard, literally. I don't think Jon would do that to his sister (not to mention Bran, who is the true Lord of Winterfell). It seems like bad writing to me.

He is ex Lord Commader of the Night Watch, I am sure they all know him. Even Ramsay mentioned that he is famous as a fighter in the north. So it's wrong to say the North barely know him. In fact maybe in the book he is quite a talk among northern people too. 

Sansa has married twice to her enemies, thus I am not sure they prefer to marry her. This sounds quite misogyny but it's a huge factor. She isn't a fighter and she isn't a commander. Had she been Yara or Dany, I am sure they wouldn't hesitate to claim her the Queen.  

In all senses, Jon won the battle with Vale army came in the last minute. He and his supporters broke the gate of WF and he won Ramsay on 1-1 combat. Unless the Vale army scream something like "We won the battle, WF belong to us!" However they don't and they didn't break the gate first. So It is not wrong to say that Jon won the battle. The rule is that who break the gate first they win. 

Jon has his legend from the time he is the lord commander, I am sure Northen people have heard that, he survived a battle that his side was overwhelmed like 1/6 or so, he has killed so many in battle field, and he fights along with his people, plus he is famous as a fighter. His allies (some small houses in the North and the wildings) respect him. That is impressive in North's view.

And of course he acts like Ned, he looks like Ned, and Northern people respect Ned. 

 

[Tianzi]

The interesting thing is that this scene didn't include Sweetrobin (am I right?). It would be sort of a dick move from his bannermen to pledge loyalty to someone else without asking him. Also, Robb and Sansa are Robb and Sansa, Lysa and Robin's relatives, Catelyn's children. Jon is... uh, Catelyn hated not-even-stepson? Whose ass the Vale Lords have just saved? They literally have no reason to approve of him getting the front seat before their lord's relative, Sansa.

And Sansa may or may not be okay with this, but it doesn't matter - they didn't really hear her opinion on that. Her sitting and smiling politely during this spontaneous event could be just pure diplomacy. They should have waited, consulted this with her and supported Jon after that, if she told them so.

The two only remotely plausible reasons for Royce joining the yelling (beside 'D&D just didn't care', of course), are:

- he used this occassion to distance himself from Littlefinger to some degree; alligning himself with someone else can increase his safety,

- quite contrary, LF could have urged the Vale Lords to support Jon if something happens in hope of driving a rift between Jon and Sansa.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

^ I think it's just the Vale are acting along with people in the room. End of story. Lol

[Tianzi]

5 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

He is ex Lord Commader of the Night Watch,

I am quite sure that, given the NW rules, ex Lord Commander equals deserter, so this should be a factor that makes them suspicious of him, not makes them admire him.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

5 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I am quite sure that, given the NW rules, ex Lord Commander equals deserter, so this should be a factor that makes them suspicious of him, not makes them admire him.

I'm sure that as they hail him King in the North, they have heard of that he was dead and resurrected and that the NW don't call him a deserter. 

I think this event definitely will happen in the book but under different circumstances. Martin has set up for Jon to be King in the North I think. However as the show has to runnnn and finish so fast, there is no room for all the explanation that might be listed in the book.  

[Tianzi]

1 minute ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I'm sure that as they hail him King in the North, they have heard of that he was dead and resurrected. 

Well, pity then that the showrunners didn't bother including this scene, hopefully along with some healthy skepticism from the Northeners. The only remotely supernatural thing that was there was Wun Wun (and no reaction to him, either), they have literally no reason to believe this highly suspicious story, since it's been established that for them all the NW reports of the living dead were, well, snarks and grumkins.

Actually, if they believed the NW stories about the living dead and Jon's resurrection on top... yeah, one reason less to trust him.

Not to mention that even the person who witnessed Jon's resurrection, Edd, was of an opinion that it DOESN'T release Jon from his vows.

6 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

I think this event definitely will happen in the book but under different circumstances. Martin has set up for Jon to be King in the North I think. However as the show has to runnnn and finish so fast, there is no room for all the explanation that might be listed in the book.  

If it happens in right circumstances, I won't whine, but the show version is just BS.

1 hour ago, Mad Queen said:

It makes zero sense to me that even the Northmen would want as King in the North some Stark bastard they barely knew with no legitimate claim to anything. They should all be trying to marry Sansa and become the next Lord of Winterfell. Why Jon? He lost the battle, Davos was the real commander. All Jon did was a stupid suicide run toward Ramsay. I don't think that impressed anyone. Unless Sansa chooses to support him, Jon has just become such a traitorous bastard, literally. I don't think Jon would do that to his sister (not to mention Bran, who is the true Lord of Winterfell). It seems like bad writing to me.

That's the jarring thing, she didn't even say a word publicly, nobody expressed any interest, and there was no scene indicating that she had discussed it with the Vale Lords earlier.

[mbuehner]

It all makes perfect sense in the context of the Vale Lords being murderously unhappy with Littlefinger and Sweetrobin. Sure, they still love House Arryn, but Sweetrobin is a turd and everybody knows it. The world is spinning out of control and they are stuck with a weak leader being puppeted by one of the most hated me in the realm. Suddenly they have some light at the end of the tunnel- if the Vale swears to Jon Snow, now they have somebody over Robin and that can trump Littlefinger. Considering their current state of affairs, that would be a pretty sweet deal. Nobody wants Arryn's son dead, but on the other hand... come on. This gives the Vale Lords a potential out- and best of all it didnt require any intrigue, heck LF is standing in the room.

[Mad Queen]

Jon is the Lord Commander who let the wildlings in, he was even murdered for it as a traitor. I'm pretty sure that alone would have made him very unpopular among the Northerners. I don't even understand how Jon managed to convince people to fight beside the wildlings.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

5 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Well, pity then that the showrunners didn't bother including this scene, hopefully along with some healthy skepticism from the Northeners. The only remotely supernatural thing that was there was Wun Wun (and no reaction to him, either), they have literally no reason to believe this highly suspicious story, since it's been established that for them all the NW reports of the living dead were, well, snarks and grumkins.

Actually, if they believed the NW stories about the living dead and Jon's resurrection on top... yeah, one reason less to trust him.

Not to mention that even the person who witnessed Jon's resurrection, Edd, was of an opinion that it DOESN'T release Jon from his vows.

If it happens in right circumstances, I won't whine, but the show version is just BS.

That's the jarring thing, she didn't even say a word publicly, nobody expressed any interest, and there was no scene indicating that she had discussed it with the Vale Lords earlier.

Edd doesn't stop Jon from going away. Edd doesn't send ravens to the whole Northern houses to tell them to capture Jon. So when his own "brothers" don't call him a deserter, Northern houses have no reason to call him a deserter. Ramsay is the only one and he is hated and he is dead. 

The show has no more 100 million usd for all the small details like "why the North suddenly believe Jon Snow", they have limited time and money and only around 13 or 14 episodes left. So they have to rush. That's understandable. Which led me to some annoyance, some scenes in the previous season were too long and should have been cut off to cost less money lol. They should have spent more money and time for the latter seasons. 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I took Royce declaring as basically making him King of the First Men.  That he claims the loyalty of First men beyond the North's borders.

[Mad Queen]

1 minute ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Edd doesn't stop Jon from going away. Edd doesn't send ravens to the whole Northern houses to tell them to capture Jon. So when his own "brothers" don't call him a deserter, Northern houses have no reason to call him a deserter. Ramsay is the only one and he is hated and he is dead.

It kind of makes you think when people easily believe an explanation like "My own brothers murdered me because I let the wildlings in, but then I resurrected and it's all good now. I'm not really a deserter, you see." Doesn't it?

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

2 minutes ago, Mad Queen said:

Jon is the Lord Commander who let the wildlings in, he was even murdered for it as a traitor. I'm pretty sure that alone would have made him very unpopular among the Northerners. I don't even understand how Jon managed to convince people to fight beside the wildlings.

He doesn't have to convince anyone. Night Watch themselves don't call him a deserter and that's the end of the debate. Northern people admire strong fighters who have lived through many battle. As for how they agree to fight alongside the wildings, show runners let it for the book to explain. They have not enough moeny and air time for that.