Jon Snow, King of the north and Vale

[Tianzi]

2 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Edd doesn't stop Jon from going away. Edd doesn't send ravens to the whole Northern houses to tell them to capture Jon. So when his own "brothers" don't call him a deserter, Northern houses have no reason to call him a deserter. Ramsay is the only one and he is hated and he is dead. 

And he was right.

Also, I don't thing any of the Northeners have consulted Edd about Jon's status, so when he used to be a sworn brother and is not anymore, it sort of makes him a deserter automatically. Ned beheaded a man on this basis in the very first episodes.

4 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

The show has no more 100 million usd for all the small details like "why the North suddenly believe Jon Snow", they have limited time and money and only around 13 or 14 episodes left. So they have to rush. That's understandable. Which led me to some annoyance, some scenes in the previous season were too long and should have been cut off to cost less money lol. They should have spent more money and time for the latter seasons. 

They have usd for CG-ing Horn Hill and time for including many nonsense scenes, so they should have them both for actual important plot points.

[mbuehner]

I think people are too caught up in rooting interests. The actual people would be concerned with survival. Manderly and Glover DID reject Snow, but victory sorts out a lot of things in most peoples minds. The realm is tearing itself apart, the North has bled itself near dry, the wildlings are fait acompli and seem docile enough for the moment. It may not be what they would have chosen 5 years before, but, as the saying goes, 'You go with what you have'.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

5 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

And he was right.

Also, I don't thing any of the Northeners have consulted Edd about Jon's status, so when he used to be a sworn brother and is not anymore, it sort of makes him a deserter automatically. Ned beheaded a man on this basis in the very first episodes.

They have usd for CG-ing Horn Hill and time for including many nonsense scenes, so they should have them both for actual important plot points.

The thing is Ramsay is a psychopath and he is hated by whole North, now he is dead and they're happy that he is dead. The show runners don't have air time and money to show the scene in which Edd getting numerous ravens asking about Jon, but it doesn't mean the northern people didn't have some kind of talk about that behind the scenes. Even when Jon and Sansa went around asking for their help, they didn't even call him a deserter of the night watch, that means they didn't see him as one even at that point. 

As for which scenes they decide to put in screen, it depends on how much they value its importance. Personally I think they have wasted so much money for some small talks in the south in the previous seasons. Now they have to run for the latter seasons.

But maybe there's another reason, that they have some kind of agreement with Martin not to show all the details that he will put in the book. It's a win-win situation for both side. The shows get huge ratings because of book-spoiler, and the books still sell because there are many details and differences have been left out of the shows. 

[Tianzi]

55 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

The thing is Ramsay is a psychopath and he is hated by whole North, now he is dead and they're happy that he is dead. The show runners don't have air time and money to show the scene in which Edd getting numerous ravens asking about Jon, but it doesn't mean the northern people didn't have some kind of talk about that behind the scenes. Even when Jon and Sansa went around asking for their help, they didn't even call him a deserter of the night watch, that means they didn't see him as one even at that point. 

As for which scenes they decide to put in screen, it depends on how much they value its importance. Personally I think they have wasted so much money for some small talks in the south in the previous seasons. Now they have to run for the latter seasons.

But maybe there's another reason, that they have some kind of agreement with Martin not to show all the details that he will put in the book. It's a win-win situation for both side. The shows get huge ratings because of book-spoiler, and the books still sell because there are many details and differences have been left out of the shows. 

They don't need that much time or money for that, they need some throw-away lines. Instead of some Missandei-Grey Worm-Tyrion scenes, for one.

Whatever reasons they had, it resulted in poor effect on screen in terms of plot logic.

1 hour ago, mbuehner said:

I think people are too caught up in rooting interests. The actual people would be concerned with survival. Manderly and Glover DID reject Snow, but victory sorts out a lot of things in most peoples minds. The realm is tearing itself apart, the North has bled itself near dry, the wildlings are fait acompli and seem docile enough for the moment. It may not be what they would have chosen 5 years before, but, as the saying goes, 'You go with what you have'.

I agree with that, I certainly can see Manderly and Glover deciding it's time for some ass-kissing the winner and coming around, and the wildlings' support is natural. (Cerwyn, however? Am I already demented or there was a scene explicitely showing that they DIDN'T ask him to join? Why the hell is he apologizing?) What I'm arguing with is saying that Jon being an ex Lord Commander and alleged undead are things going for him. They should work against him.

And also, however we try to spin it, the thing that saved them all from becoming Ramsay's dogs' food was the Vale army which was there in the first place because of Sansa, since Sweetrobin is her cousin, not Jon's.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

3 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

They don't need that much time or money for that, they need some throw-away lines. Instead of some Missandei-Grey Worm-Tyrion scenes, for one.

I agree on that. Those stupid small talks are so wasting both time and money. Seriously they should have killed them off or make them disappear. No need for those stupid scenes.

[caravaggio]

So, is the thinking that Jon's kingdom will soon include the North, The Vale, and the Riverlands?

[Ser Hyle]

6 hours ago, tormond said:

I have a question. Lord Cerwin, the one who saw his father flayed alive by ramsey and did nothing, said that the bolton have been defeated, the war was over, the biggest storm is coming in 1000s of years and they should ride home and wait the coming storm in their houses. To what Jon said that the war wasnt over and the true enemy does not wait the storms, he brings them. Do the lords know what Jon is talking about?, Do they know that the White Walkers of Legends are coming down on them with an army of the dead?, because it seemed to me, going by what lord Cerwin said that they know nothing. WHAT IS THE DEAL?, THIS THING IS BEING LEFT VAGUE AND I DON'T LIKE IT.

I with you Tormund. It's bugged me for quite some time that nobody has seemingly ever plainly told someone else: "Listen - there is an army of undead corpses led by magical ice creatures that can only be killed with Valyrian Steel and Obsidian that is soon going to invade and kill us all unless we start preparing to defend ourselves. By the way - any of you guys got any Valyrian steel and/or Obsidian on you? Didn't think so!" It's always said in vagueries and passive aggressive code that doesn't quite have the same impact that's required.

With this scene it was Jon saying "Yeah the war isn't over, the true enemy is coming and they bring the winter storms." Then everyone looked at him like dogs with their heads tilted trying to figure out what the fuck he was trying to say when suddenly little Lyanna speaks up and the next thing you know there's a new KitN and the "true enemy" is forgotten again.

Didn't they show Vale Lords complaining about having to work with Wildlings? Would that have not been a perfect opportunity to explain why the fuck Wildlings and Kneelers are on the same team for the first time in thousands of years?

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Ghosts Lunch said:

Don't think the Vale Lords swore allegiance at all

Indeed they seem to be setting the stage for a split over the Wildlings going by Royces opening comments of the scene

In this case I expect Sansa will be Queen of RL and Vale, and Jon over the North

That doean't make any sense either. Why would they gove control over the Vale to Sansa Stark and Edmures still alive?

@Mbuehner If that were the case, the smart thing to do would be to support Robert Arryn and take him as a ward. Raise him into someone competent. He's still a chil. Jon is a a foreign pagan bastard who's only connection to the Vale is that he's Robert Arryns mother's, sister's, husbands, bastard hated not step son. He's not exactly competent either. The Vale had to just save his sorry ass.

[Desert Fox]

5 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I don't see any evidence that the Vale have rebelled against the Iron Throne by switching their fealty to the King in the North instead.

In a feudal system, you cannot swear fealty to two kings at once. There can be only one.

But it makes sense for them to support FakeJon's attempt to take back Winterfell. That's all.

They already committed treason by supporting the person who the crown thought killed the King Joeffery. Giving the North to Jon or Sansa is treason. 

The vale was in for a penny, now they are in for a pound. Supporting King Snow can't make the crown more angry.

They really had three choices. Support King Jon, support Sansa, or raise Robin to King himself. Sansa and Robin are too tied up with Littlefinger for Yohn Royce to support Sansa or Robin. If Royce could control Robin, he'd probably have done the later, but he doesn't control him even a little bit. 

[tormond]

15 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

I with you Tormund. It's bugged me for quite some time that nobody has seemingly ever plainly told someone else: "Listen - there is an army of undead corpses led by magical ice creatures that can only be killed with Valyrian Steel and Obsidian that is soon going to invade and kill us all unless we start preparing to defend ourselves. By the way - any of you guys got any Valyrian steel and/or Obsidian on you? Didn't think so!" It's always said in vagueries and passive aggressive code that doesn't quite have the same impact that's required.

With this scene it was Jon saying "Yeah the war isn't over, the true enemy is coming and they bring the winter storms." Then everyone looked at him like dogs with their heads tilted trying to figure out what the fuck he was trying to say when suddenly little Lyanna speaks up and the next thing you know there's a new KitN and the "true enemy" is forgotten again.

Didn't they show Vale Lords complaining about having to work with Wildlings? Would that have not been a perfect opportunity to explain why the fuck Wildlings and Kneelers are on the same team for the first time in thousands of years?

Finally someone with sense with whom i can discuss WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON. Didnt it bother you that a GIANT of legends was on the battlefield against the Boltons and seen by the vale soldiers and there was no wonderment, no awe or fear about it, there was no WHAT THE F IS THAT, moment?. Something is just wrong with the show and is cheapening the story. 

[Ser Hyle]

7 minutes ago, tormond said:

Finally someone with sense with whom i can discuss WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON. Didnt it bothered you that a GIANT of legends was on the battlefield against the Boltons and seen by the vale soldiers and there was no wonderment, no awe or fear about it, there was no WHAT THE F IS THAT, moment?. Something is just wrong with the show and is cheaping the story. 

Yeah I thought the same thing. Especially when he was threatening the shield wall. I found it hard to believe a bunch of those soldiers didn't freak out and break formation.

[tormond]

1 minute ago, Ser Hyle said:

Yeah I thought the same thing. Especially when he was threatening the shield wall. I found it hard to believe a bunch of those soldiers didn't freak out and break formation.

In any case there seems to be a lot of vagueness when it comes to magic, and i dont mean people believing it or not, i mean nobody is discussing about it. Jon comes back from the dead and i assume he told Sansa and she acts nonchalant, she sees a giant standing in front her and she still acts like it is normal occurrence. And now the lords of the north, i dont even know if they've been told, but there's a weirdness with the whole thing

[Desert Fox]

I'm with you guys. Ok, I understand that the show has time restraints and sometimes thing happen off screen. But:

1) A scene where Jon describes the coming threat would be great. You also had Davos and Mel, who are ready made for that sort of shit too.

2) These types of scenes are easy to write, easy to shoot, and cost nothing.

3) The show is rushing to the end for inexplicable reasons. Their answer is that there just isn't that much more plot yet. Ok, but then why is shit getting rushed. I understand that it's hard to plot a season because you need to have a beginning and an end for each plotline. You can't just add 30 minutes of extra Jon politics with the north, and push the climax of the story to next season without the show suffering. But surely something could be done.

[MilesJames]

17 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

Yeah I thought the same thing. Especially when he was threatening the shield wall. I found it hard to believe a bunch of those soldiers didn't freak out and break formation.

To be fair the soldiers also somehow didnt break when they were quickly being torn apart by calvary

[King Perkis]

16 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

 

 

6 minutes ago, tormond said:

 

I'm with you both. The show just glosses over these facts without an explanation especially with the Northerners. At least in Hardhome there was a conversation but still the Thenn who saw ice spiders, WW, and wights still decided that following a crow was a bad idea. Also, don't forget that the WISE Masters completely forgot about Dany's dragons or just assumed the one that ate all of the Harpy at the games just forgot how to each and kill people. Its actually laughable at this point.

[King Perkis]

2 minutes ago, MilesJames said:

To be fair the soldiers also somehow didnt break when they were quickly being torn apart by calvary

Lol that shield wall was like 2 rows deep and after hearing the horn and seeing the horses the back row was like "eh, we're good."

[Ser Hyle]

1 minute ago, tormond said:

In any case there seems to be a lot of vagueness when it comes to magic, and i dont mean people believing it or not, i mean nobody is discussing about it. Jon comes back from the dead and i assume he told Sansa and she acts nonchalant, she sees a giant standing in front her and she still acts like it is normal occurrence. And now the lords of the north, i dont even know if they've been told, but there's a weirdness with the whole thing

Yep, it's like a casualness, a nonchalance... it's not exclusive to the show though, the books kind of set the tone:

"Oh hey Alliser, haven't seen you around King's Landing in a while... what you got there? Oh, a severed hand in a jar that appears to be moving as if it's still alive. Oh you old bugger you're always up to something. Welp, see ya later!"

and

"Hey Brienne did you see that shadow with Stannis' face stab Renly there right in front of us?" "Sure did, it killed my King." "OK, so I'm not crazy - well let's get out of here before they think we did this, but let's not consider switching religions from the current one where we pray to our gods and then hope to be able to construe naturally occurring events and coincidences into signs/answers to our prayers, to one where you can actually make fucking murderous smoke monsters to do our bidding."

and

"Oh, so you were full on dead for the better part of a day... and then brought back to life with some chanting to R'hllor. Cool story, but I'm gonna stick with the Old Gods, cus those trees have faces!"

etc.

 

[Darksky]

I'm so happy the showrunners allowed the North to appoint its leader. It was the free will of the Northern Lords. Jon is King not because of some piece of paper or a name but his own deeds, valour and character. The Lords had options, they weren't forced to conform to a dead royalty's wish (Robb's will) and they decided not to be classist. It's great development all around.

[tormond]

20 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

I'm with you guys. Ok, I understand that the show has time restraints and sometimes thing happen off screen. But:

1) A scene where Jon describes the coming threat would be great. You also had Davos and Mel, who are ready made for that sort of shit too.

2) These types of scenes are easy to write, easy to shoot, and cost nothing.

3) The show is rushing to the end for inexplicable reasons. Their answer is that there just isn't that much more plot yet. Ok, but then why is shit getting rushed. I understand that it's hard to plot a season because you need to have a beginning and an end for each plotline. You can't just add 30 minutes of extra Jon politics with the north, and push the climax of the story to next season without the show suffering. But surely something could be done.

 

18 minutes ago, King Perkis said:

 

I'm with you both. The show just glosses over these facts without an explanation especially with the Northerners. At least in Hardhome there was a conversation but still the Thenn who saw ice spiders, WW, and wights still decided that following a crow was a bad idea. Also, don't forget that the WISE Masters completely forgot about Dany's dragons or just assumed the one that ate all of the Harpy at the games just forgot how to each and kill people. Its actually laughable at this point.

 

16 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

Yep, it's like a casualness, a nonchalance... it's not exclusive to the show though, the books kind of set the tone:

"Oh hey Alliser, haven't seen you around King's Landing in a while... what you got there? Oh, a severed hand in a jar that appears to be moving as if it's still alive. Oh you old bugger you're always up to something. Welp, see ya later!"

and

"Hey Brienne did you see that shadow with Stannis' face stab Renly there right in front of us?" "Sure did, it killed my King." "OK, so I'm not crazy - well let's get out of here before they think we did this, but let's not consider switching religions from the current one where we pray to our gods and then hope to be able to construe naturally occurring events and coincidences into signs/answers to our prayers, to one where you can actually make fucking murderous smoke monsters to do our bidding."

and

"Oh, so you were full on dead for the better part of a day... and then brought back to life with some chanting to R'hllor. Cool story, but I'm gonna stick with the Old Gods, cus those trees have faces!"

etc.

 

Well at least i know im not the only one who's been feeling weird and bothered about the characters not being in Awe after seeing or hearing accounts from trusted source about the nightmarish legends that were deemed too crazy to be believed. I still want Jon to discuss in detail the White Walkers and their army with the lords of the north

[MilesJames]

3 minutes ago, tormond said:

 

 

Well at least i know im not the only one who's been feeling weird and bothered about the characters not being in Awe after seeing or hearing account from trusted source about the nightmarish legends that were deemed too crazy to be believed. I still want Jon to discuss in detail the White Walkers and their army with the lords of the north

I think it will be more intresting when Dynerias takes king landing and hears "Mythical creatures of ice than can raise the dead of legend have returned and are killing evreyone in the north. " I hope she thinks its fake and a trap rather than saying well it must be true an evreyone just accepting it.