Jon Snow, King of the north and Vale

[tugela]

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 7:46 AM, Jasmin Stark of the North said:

Jon is now king in the  North. But what happens when Bran will return to Winterfell? He is Neds trueborn son, how will the North react to this?  Don´t get me wrong, I love Jon seeing as crowned king and he really deserves it....Your thoughts? .

Nothing. Bran will become the Lord of Winterfell. Jon will remain the king. Separate titles.

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Sorry but I completely disagree with you on this one, if you watch carefully the scene, he didn't offer her anything and she didn't accept or refuse anything

he simply stated a fact : "you are the lady of winterfell now" and she remains silent

He said he wasn't fit as a bastard and that she is the lady of Winterfell. There's not a whole lot of ways any rational person could read that besides "you are more suited to this than me". She had it if she wanted it. And if tomorrow Sansa said, "I'm a legitimate Stark, this is mine" there is almost no doubt Jon wouldn't say she was right.

Sansa was smiling and laughing when she he was being proclaimed king until she saw Baelish looking pissed off.

Sansa had that spot if she wanted it. The only person who stopped her, was herself.

[tugela]

16 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Agin, that's not the point. There's no reason for the Vale to swear fealty to Jon.

Actually, they do have a reason. They were not swearing fealty to Jon (that would require kneeling before him, which they did not do), they were proclaiming him King in the North (which was ok, since they lived in the south, so he wasn't THEIR king). They want to get rid of the Lannisters. If you recall, the Lannisters armed the Vale hill tribes so they could rebel against the lords of the Vale. It was a tactical move to ensure that the Vale was preoccupied with their own problems and did not take sides during the war. No doubt the lords of the Vale have figured this out by now, and any opportunity they get to stick it to the Lannisters would be taken. Getting the North riled up and in a state of rebellion again would allow them to do this.

[Future Null Infinity]

6 minutes ago, lancerman said:

He said he wasn't fit as a bastard and that she is the lady of Winterfell. There's not a whole lot of ways any rational person could read that besides "you are more suited to this than me".

the only other way to understand it which is the way of the scene, Jon is simply saying "you are the rightful Lord of winterfell and I'm a bastard", I don't know what does mean this whole "offer" affair! he knew the laws unless you want him to look like a usurper

9 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Sansa had that spot if she wanted it. The only person who stopped her, was herself.

 it's clear, she didn't oppose his coronation in the scene, she knew that he's the suitable king

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Angrivarius said:

I don't get the Jon is stealing Sansas birth right thing.

- First I think for Sansa this is totally acceptable: For her Jon is a Stark, not a bastard.

- Additionally Westeros still is a realm dominated by men. Thats why Cersei couldn't become queen after Roberts death, her only way to stay close to power, was to crown her sons. Now it seems that she finally got all the power, but her rule is not likely to last long. The traditional patriarchal political system of Westeros will go through some serious turbulences with Dany arriving, but this hasn't happened yet.

- Even in medieval times and before, rule didn't come only through birth right. There was never a point in crowning someone, that lacked the abbility to consolidate power. Britain chose a distant related German (George I) over a Stuart, because they only accepted a protestant. So it was never that easy, like only the first born son inherits the title, then the sibling below etc. Julius Cäsar even became emperor, where there was no monarchy before. Later in roman times, times of war, the most succesful military leaders wer proclaimed as emperors (barracks emperors), without being heir to anything or anyone. Only at the very beginning of modern times the rule came through birth right unchallenged for a short period of time, when monarchies had almost absolute power. So I would suggest to look at it a bit more flexible if it comes ASoIaF, since GRRM rather draws on the time from the roman empire to the late medieval ages, where reign often came through political influence, victory, pure force or intrigue. If we apply this to the books and the show, the coronation of Jon makes totally sense. He is seen as the victor, the one who let the Stark forces into the victory against Ramsey (even if Sansa asisted in the backround by calling the knights of the Vale for help). These are times of war, winter is coming and therefore it makes pure sense to crown a proven military leader instead of a women that has no military experience. Also Sansa was object (not subject) to the political game waged by Lannisters and Boltons by being forced to marry Tyrion and Ramsey, which is to much of a burden for her to become Queen in the North...

Depending on the Vale, its clear to me that Jon does not become Lord of the Vale, by Vale lords being present at his coronation. This idea appears rather foolish to me. The Vale is an ally, they fought together and now they are having a feast together which surprisingly turned out to become the coronation of the King of the North, but it seems rather natural to me that allies would be present at the coronation of an allied Lord or King, which does not mean that they abandon their own lord.

Anyway I think with Sweet Robin as Lord of the Vale, this topic might become hot soon, since Sweet Robin is Littlefingers puppet already and if he is eliminated, the Starks would have a good claim. I hope Sansa is playing Littlefinger and does not make the mistake to side with him, because it would probably make her enemy to her own kin. I am very curious how Littlefingers character develops in the books, I guess he becomes the new antagonist after Ramsey is dead and Cersei being occupied with defending herself.

 

The Starks have no claim to the Vale. Their connection to Robin is matrilineal and Jon has no connection at all. That's why it's stupid that the showrunners had Robert Arryns Lords and Knights, declare Jon Snow King.

[lancerman]

5 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

the only other way to understand it which is the way of the scene, Jon is simply saying "you are the rightful Lord of winterfell and I'm a bastard", I don't know what does mean this whole "offer" affair! he knew the laws unless you want him to look like a usurper

 it's clear, she didn't oppose his coronation in the scene, she knew that he's the suitable king

Jon: I'm having the Lord's chamber prepared for you. You're the lady of Winterfell. You deserve it.

Sansa: You should take it.

Jon: I'm not a Stark.

Sounds like an offer to me. Not even an offer. He basically said this should be you and I'm acting like it belongs to you. She said you should take it.

[MiloStark]

You are reading too much into whether or not Jon Snow is king of the Vale and what role the lords of the Vale have from now on in the show. 

Jon Snow is the King in the North, not of the North AND the Vale. The Vale Houses are just allies of the Northern Houses (through Sansa) by helping the Starks get back Winterfell. Jon Snow is not their king at all. I think thats pretty clear. The North is a separate entity that is ruled from now on by Jon Snow. The Lord of the Vale is Robin Arryn, although we all know thats really LF. What I don't really know is what power LF really has, if he decides to withdraw the support of the Vale from the North because they didn't choose Sansa as QITN and what these lords would have to say to that. Because everyone in the room except LF was hailing Jon King in The North. So Jon can count on them if need be.

What really surprised me was Jon's line to Sansa "We have so may enemies now, we have to trust each other, etc". And I thought like...Really?

The war is over, the Boltons are defeated, the Freys are pretty much done, the Umbers, Karstarks gone too. So where are those many enemies?

The only enemy that I think of was inside the castle at that moment...(Littlefinger). But apart from him (not thats he's not enough of an enemy though) there are not any Houses in Westeros that might pose a threat to the Starks anymore. Not even the Lannisters, who are pretty much doomed.

They are not going march North to take back Winterfell, Cersei told Joffrey in Season 1 that the North was impossible to invade because its to big and the Northerners know too well the land. Even Roose Bolton told something similar to Ramsay telling him that Tywin Lannister wouldn't send his troops North to help them in case of war. So pretty much the only enemy they have is the one that saved them at the last minute: Littlefinger, who we know is going to try to mess things up next season.

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Zorral said:

That's what I'd always thought too (though I am so often wrong eff what I think!), that King in the North is the person who runs the war against Winter.

Which might be another reason we don't see the usual horse-trading, often conducted by trusted surrogate -- support so-and-so for this position and you will get in return such-and-such -- the heart of medieval political and military politics.

This was done by an acclaim out of necessity, rather like Claudius's elevation to Roman emperor by the German army.  The Germans wanted Claudius?  They can have him because who else has an army right now to take them on.

Germans elected Claudius?

[MiloStark]

It might be interesting to go back in time though. In Season 3 I remember the Blackfish telling Edmure something like "don't talk like that to him, he's your king" (meaning Robb). ( this was in ep 3 i think when Edmure attacked the Lannisters without Robbs consent). By hearing speak to the Blackfish one would guess that Robb was the king in the north and riverlands. So i don't know if that would be the case now with Jon Snow and the lords of the Vale. I doubt someone like LF would give like that all the power.

[Ice Spider]

30 minutes ago, lancerman said:

He said he wasn't fit as a bastard and that she is the lady of Winterfell. There's not a whole lot of ways any rational person could read that besides "you are more suited to this than me". She had it if she wanted it. And if tomorrow Sansa said, "I'm a legitimate Stark, this is mine" there is almost no doubt Jon wouldn't say she was right.

Sansa was smiling and laughing when she he was being proclaimed king until she saw Baelish looking pissed off.

Sansa had that spot if she wanted it. The only person who stopped her, was herself.

 

 

12 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Jon: I'm having the Lord's chamber prepared for you. You're the lady of Winterfell. You deserve it.

Sansa: You should take it.

Jon: I'm not a Stark.

Sounds like an offer to me. Not even an offer. He basically said this should be you and I'm acting like it belongs to you. She said you should take it.

While I agree with you, there is one other explanation, I am assuming Ramsey lived in the Lords quarters and that is where he raped and brutalized Sansa repeatedly? I can see her not wanting to occupy that room.

[lancerman]

Just now, Ice Spider said:

 

 

While I agree with you, there is one other explanation, I am assuming Ramsey lived in the Lords quarters and that is where he raped and brutalized Sansa repeatedly? I can see her not wanting to occupy that room.

Wouldn't Roose?

[Future Null Infinity]

45 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Jon literally told Sansa she should take it, and she didn't.

 

2 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Jon: I'm having the Lord's chamber prepared for you. You're the lady of Winterfell. You deserve it.

Sansa: You should take it.

Jon: I'm not a Stark.

Sounds like an offer to me. Not even an offer. He basically said this should be you and I'm acting like it belongs to you. She said you should take it.

we are in the realm of the contradictions now, the first comment is totally a biased comment that didn't even exist in the show and simply want to put Jon as the big boss that he can offer things to people and those things are already belong to those people 

[lancerman]

17 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

 

we are in the realm of the contradictions now, the first comment is totally a biased comment that didn't even exist in the show and simply want to put Jon as the big boss that he can offer things to people and those things are already belong to those people 

"You deserve it". "You should take it".

This is turning into semantics 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

On 6/28/2016 at 10:54 AM, Future Null Infinity said:

I personally think that King in the north doesn't mean Lord of Winterfell, I could be wrong but they never explained what's  lord of Winterfell, warden of North and the king in the north in the show, it seems so complicated

I agree. Lord of Winterfell does not equal King in the North. Sansa or Bran could be the Lady/Lord of Winterfell, it shouldn't prevent Jon from being King. 

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

1 hour ago, MiloStark said:

It might be interesting to go back in time though. In Season 3 I remember the Blackfish telling Edmure something like "don't talk like that to him, he's your king" (meaning Robb). ( this was in ep 3 i think when Edmure attacked the Lannisters without Robbs consent). By hearing speak to the Blackfish one would guess that Robb was the king in the north and riverlands. So i don't know if that would be the case now with Jon Snow and the lords of the Vale. I doubt someone like LF would give like that all the power.

Robb was King of the North and Riverlands. Jon is just King of the North with a alliance with the Vale.

[MilesJames]

15 hours ago, Clash said:

Where is this talk of a feud coming from? It's not something I've ever heard of and certainly (to the best of my knowledge) isn't indicated in the books so far. From the show, it's apparent that Sansa seems quite happy with Jon's elevation; she smiles at him as he stands up to accept the 'coronation'. Her smile only slips when she catches Littlefinger's eye. I read that as her being concerned about Littlefinger's reaction since she knows the extent of his ambition.

If Jon and Sansa fight even though they know the others are coming I hope they all die. The others are starting to look better than the humans. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

21 minutes ago, MilesJames said:

If Jon and Sansa fight even though they know the others are coming I hope they all die. The others are starting to look better than the humans. 

Sansa is no more apt to fight with her cousin FakeJon than with her cousin Robert. Family don’t do that — in the north.

[Dragonslack]

Interesting, king john snow and not jon stark?! How can a king have a bastard name? With the acclamation comes the name.

[Epyon]

7 minutes ago, Dragonslack said:

Interesting, king john snow and not jon stark?! How can a king have a bastard name? With the acclamation comes the name.

Not to mention he could theoretically legitimize himself now.

Regardless, I think Bran will drop the Jon(-aerys) Targaryan bomb on people next season early on.... Bran will take over Winterfell, but swear fealty to Jon as a Targ/ King of all 7 kingdoms.

Sansa I see going back to the Vale to try and keep LF in check by marrying Sweet Robin (making her Lady of the Vale)..... then something like LF poisoning him and intending to marry Sansa or some nonsense to get himself the promotion....

either that, or

LF tries to marry Cersei, in exchange for the Vale's support. She's kind of desperate for Allies, and LF is out of options for improving his station with Jon ruling the North.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, MiloStark said:

It might be interesting to go back in time though. In Season 3 I remember the Blackfish telling Edmure something like "don't talk like that to him, he's your king" (meaning Robb). ( this was in ep 3 i think when Edmure attacked the Lannisters without Robbs consent). By hearing speak to the Blackfish one would guess that Robb was the king in the north and riverlands. So i don't know if that would be the case now with Jon Snow and the lords of the Vale. I doubt someone like LF would give like that all the power.

Honestly, I'm going to have to wait and see. If they declared Jon King of the Vale, they did it without the approval and acceptance of their Lord. Until then, I'll have to consider it illegitimate.