Jon Snow, King of the north and Vale

[Lord Freddy Blackfyre]

OK, let's see:

1-The one and only Lord of Winterfell is Brandon Stark, son of Ned Strark and has been since Robb death. In other words, Sansa can't be the Lady of Winterfell because Bran has never been confirmed death in the show and both Jon and Sansa know that Bran is alive.

2-Bran is not the King In The North because his claim come from the failed reign of Robb Stark who was defeated, killed and his bannermen exterminated with him.

3-King Jon is not an usurper because, just like King Robb before him, was elected by the Lords on the North with the presence of the Vale generals and Lords. Jon could reign as Snow, as Stark if he choosee to legitimate himself or begin a House with a new name, Whitewolf sounds good to me: King Jon of House Whitewolf, first of his name, in that way he don't need to arrogate the name Stark or Targaryen when he learn about his parents.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

8 minutes ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said:

OK, let's see:

1-The one and only Lord of Winterfell is Brandon Stark, son of Ned Strark and has been since Robb death. In other words, Sansa can't be the Lady of Winterfell because Bran has never been confirmed death in the show and both Jon and Sansa know that Bran is alive.

2-Bran is not the King In The North because his claim come from the failed reign of Robb Stark who was defeated, killed and his bannermen exterminated with him.

3-King Jon is not an usurper because, just like King Robb before him, was elected by the Lords on the North with the presence of the Vale generals and Lords. Jon could reign as Snow, as Stark if he choosee to legitimate himself or begin a House with a new name, Whitewolf sounds good to me: King Jon of House Whitewolf, first of his name, in that way he don't need to arrogate the name Stark or Targaryen when he learn about his parents.

I think Bran will be abdicate to Jon or Sansa or both since it seems Jon will end up marrying his sister/cousin.

[Chib]

20 minutes ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said:

OK, let's see:

1-The one and only Lord of Winterfell is Brandon Stark, son of Ned Strark and has been since Robb death. In other words, Sansa can't be the Lady of Winterfell because Bran has never been confirmed death in the show and both Jon and Sansa know that Bran is alive.

2-Bran is not the King In The North because his claim come from the failed reign of Robb Stark who was defeated, killed and his bannermen exterminated with him.

3-King Jon is not an usurper because, just like King Robb before him, was elected by the Lords on the North with the presence of the Vale generals and Lords. Jon could reign as Snow, as Stark if he choosee to legitimate himself or begin a House with a new name, Whitewolf sounds good to me: King Jon of House Whitewolf, first of his name, in that way he don't need to arrogate the name Stark or Targaryen when he learn about his parents.

 

 

True, the issue is, people think that being King in the North means you must be Lord of Winterfell along with that. While it is true that a King in the North/Stark is associated with Winterfell, it does not mean you must be Lord of Winterfell to be King in the North. As long as the North Brexit themselves successfully from 7 kingdoms, they can always create some rules by themselves. Sansa/Bran can be lady/lord of Winterfell without being queen/king.

[CrypticWeirwood]

26 minutes ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said:

OK, let's see:

1-The one and only Lord of Winterfell is Brandon Stark, son of Ned Strark and has been since Robb death. In other words, Sansa can't be the Lady of Winterfell because Bran has never been confirmed death in the show and both Jon and Sansa know that Bran is alive.

2-Bran is not the King In The North because his claim come from the failed reign of Robb Stark who was defeated, killed and his bannermen exterminated with him.

3-King Jon is not an usurper because, just like King Robb before him, was elected by the Lords on the North with the presence of the Vale generals and Lords. Jon could reign as Snow, as Stark if he choosee to legitimate himself or begin a House with a new name, Whitewolf sounds good to me: King Jon of House Whitewolf, first of his name, in that way he don't need to arrogate the name Stark or Targaryen when he learn about his parents.

Being a bastard child of Lord Brandon Stark’s unmarried daughter by Bael the Bard did not stop that child from growing up to be the Stark in Winterfell and its lord. Do you really think anybody went begging for some piece of paper to "legitimize" or rename him?  Of course not.

Perhaps FakeJon will go down in the history books by both names, Prince Aemon Targaryen and King Jon Stark.  

But honestly, we’re far past this silly obsession with bastardy.  Lyanna Mormont taught us that. What matters is right of conquest and the recognition of his position by his subjects. Nothing else matters.

[Lord Freddy Blackfyre]

2 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Being a bastard child of Lord Brandon Stark’s unmarried daughter by Bael the Bard did not stop that child from growing up to be the Stark in Winterfell and its lord. Do you really think anybody went begging for some piece of paper to "legitimize" or rename him?  Of course not.

Perhaps FakeJon will go down in the history books by both names, Prince Aemon Targaryen and King Jon Stark.  

But honestly, we’re far past this silly obsession with bastardy.  Lyanna Mormont taught us that.

Fake Jon?.....The Bael the Bard is a wildling tale not base on facts.

[CrypticWeirwood]

8 minutes ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said:

Fake Jon?.....The Bael the Bard is a wildling tale not base on facts.

There is no “Jon”.  The person Melisandre raised from the dead is not “Jon”.  That’s all fake: it’s not his real name.  He’s therefore FakeJon, son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.  FakeJon’s true name is yet to be revealed.

Danaerys will seek the most strategic possible marriage in Westeros, and that is clearly the King in the North. Once it is revealed that FakeJon is truly Prince Aemon Targaryen and a dragonknight himself, she will even be happy with the political union.

I’m sure his Stark cousins will always call FakeJon by the name they knew him by when they were all children together, but that is not the name his parents gave him.

[mbuehner]

On 6/28/2016 at 3:23 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

@Mbuehner If that were the case, the smart thing to do would be to support Robert Arryn and take him as a ward. Raise him into someone competent. He's still a chil. Jon is a a foreign pagan bastard who's only connection to the Vale is that he's Robert Arryns mother's, sister's, husbands, bastard hated not step son. He's not exactly competent either. The Vale had to just save his sorry ass.

The problem is that was tried and failed due to Littlefingers influence. The point is, this could be seen as a way to outmaneuver Littlefinger.

[Masha]

10 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

There is no “Jon”.  The person Melisandre raised from the dead is not “Jon”.  That’s all fake: it’s not his real name.  He’s therefore FakeJon, son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.  FakeJon’s true name is yet to be revealed.

Danaerys will seek the most strategic possible marriage in Westeros, and that is clearly the King in the North. Once it is revealed that FakeJon is truly Prince Aemon Targaryen and a dragonknight himself, she will even be happy with the political union.

I’m sure his Stark cousins will always call FakeJon by the name they knew him by when they were all children together, but that is not the name his parents gave him.

Someone from reddit deduced that the name that Lyanna whispered is Jahaerys, so no Aemon Dragonknight

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, mbuehner said:

The problem is that was tried and failed due to Littlefingers influence. The point is, this could be seen as a way to outmaneuver Littlefinger.

No it didn't. Making this foreign bastard King of the Vale without their Lords approval isn't a way to diminish LF's power. If anything, it makes them a target for SR since they really have no right to make Jon King of the Vale.

[mbuehner]

And Jahaerys is an interesting name:

-Jahaerys I was universally considered the best, most effective and just of the Targaryen Kings.

-Jahearys II was the Mad Kings father. Jahearys commanded his son to marry his daughter after the Ghost of High Heart made a prophecy that the Prince Who Was Promised would come from the line of that union.  Their child was Rhaegar whos child was Jon. Jahearys put all of this into motion.

-Jajearys II was also considered a good king, though sickly and short lived. Barristan spoke highly of him.

[CrypticWeirwood]

3 hours ago, Masha said:

Someone from reddit deduced that the name that Lyanna whispered is Jahaerys, so no Aemon Dragonknight

“Deduce” is a stronger word than should be applied here.

We shall see.

[TheRevanchist]

22 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The Starks have no claim to the Vale. Their connection to Robin is matrilineal and Jon has no connection at all. That's why it's stupid that the showrunners had Robert Arryns Lords and Knights, declare Jon Snow King.

No claim in Vale, but they might accept him as King similar to how the North, Vale and Riverlands accepted Robert as their king.

I think that at this stage most likely it is just an alliance.

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, TheRevanchist said:

No claim in Vale, but they might accept him as King similar to how the North, Vale and Riverlands accepted Robert as their king.

I think that at this stage most likely it is just an alliance.

It's not the same thing. They accepted Robert as King because he'd proven himself on the battlefield, he had Targaryen blood and they wanted to keep the Seven Kingdoms United. Jon hasn't proven himself and if they're breaking away from the Seven kingdoms, they might as well go back to being an independent Kingdom under House Arryn.

[rivers snow]

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It's not the same thing. They accepted Robert as King because he'd proven himself on the battlefield, he had Targaryen blood and they wanted to keep the Seven Kingdoms United. Jon hasn't proven himself and if they're breaking away from the Seven kingdoms, they might as well go back to being an independent Kingdom under House Arryn.

I am not sure the close of that scene was meant to indicate that the Vale had declared for Jon, however this idea that he has not proven himself on the battlefield is  silly. 

Ramsay Bolton sets up clearly that Jon is a famous warrior in the North. The lore around him would only be bolstered (irrespective of the conditions surrounding his death) by the fact he returned from the dead. Whether its sound strategy or not, everyone at the Battle of Winterfell will have seen him bravely (foolish too, but brave) face into thousands of cavalry pacing at him without flinching and then emerge victorious after killing god knows how many men in the battle and defeating Ramsay one on one. He possesses exactly the qualities that the Northerners will admire and is likely quickly developing mythic reputation (whether you like it or not) amongst his new vassals. If Dany is the Mother of Dragons, Jon is now the White Wolf with a reputation emboldened by the privilege of winning: your followers get to write the history.

Also, for those questioning if his Targ blood will lessen his claim in anyway or saying he is no longer Jon. Ned Stark tells him that his blood runs through Jon's veins and as far as Jon is concerned Ned is his dad. I dont see the North abandoning Jon as KiTN due to the Targ blood, they didnt pick him because he was Ned's heir, he wasn't in the first place, they elected him because of what he had done on the field.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, rivers snow said:

I am not sure the close of that scene was meant to indicate that the Vale had declared for Jon, however this idea that he has not proven himself on the battlefield is  silly. 

Ramsay Bolton sets up clearly that Jon is a famous warrior in the North. The lore around him would only be bolstered (irrespective of the conditions surrounding his death) by the fact he returned from the dead. Whether its sound strategy or not, everyone at the Battle of Winterfell will have seen him bravely (foolish too, but brave) face into thousands of cavalry pacing at him without flinching and then emerge victorious after killing god knows how many men in the battle and defeating Ramsay one on one. He possesses exactly the qualities that the Northerners will admire and is likely quickly developing mythic reputation (whether you like it or not) amongst his new vassals. If Dany is the Mother of Dragons, Jon is now the White Wolf with a reputation emboldened by the privilege of winning: your followers get to write the history.

Also, for those questioning if his Targ blood will lessen his claim in anyway or saying he is no longer Jon. Ned Stark tells him that his blood runs through Jon's veins and as far as Jon is concerned Ned is his dad. I dont see the North abandoning Jon as KiTN due to the Targ blood, they didnt pick him because he was Ned's heir, he wasn't in the first place, they elected him because of what he had done on the field.

I wasn't talking about the North. I was talking about the Vale. He has not proven himself at all to be a great military commander, he neeced to be saved by the Vale Lords, he's not related to the Arryns at all, the Vale has thousands of years of history bein Andal, fervent worshipersof the Seven and tied deeply to House Arryn and yet they've declare Jon their King without even waiting for the approval of their Lord.

[rivers snow]

34 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I wasn't talking about the North. I was talking about the Vale. He has not proven himself at all to be a great military commander, he neeced to be saved by the Vale Lords, he's not related to the Arryns at all, the Vale has thousands of years of history bein Andal, fervent worshipersof the Seven and tied deeply to House Arryn and yet they've declare Jon their King without even waiting for the approval of their Lord.

But its not clear they have. They could simply be celebrating with the northern houses. Would make sense for them to form an allegiance.

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, rivers snow said:

But its not clear they have. They could simply be celebrating with the northern houses. Would make sense for them to form an allegiance.

Allegiance means subordination. They're trying to draw parallels to when the Riverlords swore fealty to Robb, but it doesn't work. The Vale has it's own identity opposed to the North and under the Arryns.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

1 minute ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Allegiance means subordination. They're trying to draw parallels to when the Riverlords swore fealty to Robb, but it doesn't work. The Vale has it's own identity opposed to the North and under the Arryns.

Why don't you just take it that the Vale knights were just swept away by the moment (everyone else is chanting beside them) and that's all. Lol 

[tmug]

5 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Why don't you just take it that the Vale knights were just swept away by the moment (everyone else is chanting beside them) and that's all. Lol 

Yeah would you want to be the only ones not cheering for Jon in that scene? They could easily be seen as traitors if they didn't join in, or at least rub some Northerners the wrong way by their non-reaction.

But hey, after Lyanna Mormont speech I think the entire 7 kingdoms would have rallied behind whatever that girl said.

[Rory Snow]

2 hours ago, rivers snow said:

Also, for those questioning if his Targ blood will lessen his claim in anyway or saying he is no longer Jon. Ned Stark tells him that his blood runs through Jon's veins and as far as Jon is concerned Ned is his dad. I dont see the North abandoning Jon as KiTN due to the Targ blood, they didnt pick him because he was Ned's heir, he wasn't in the first place, they elected him because of what he had done on the field.

Agreed. Even if he were Ned's legit son, he'd still be half Stark, half Tully.. why should being half Targ instead be an issue?

 

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I wasn't talking about the North. I was talking about the Vale. He has not proven himself at all to be a great military commander, he neeced to be saved by the Vale Lords, he's not related to the Arryns at all, the Vale has thousands of years of history bein Andal, fervent worshipersof the Seven and tied deeply to House Arryn and yet they've declare Jon their King without even waiting for the approval of their Lord.

You make it sound like Jon was losing a battle he was supposed to win. The Boltons had them outnumbered 3 to 1 yet his men still followed Jon into battle. Granted he let his emotions get the best of him, an immature move, but his men love him and will follow him. Before criticizing Jon as a military leader, I'd like to see him run a battle with even odds. If Sansa had told Jon about the Vale Knights, his strategy at that point would have been far more telling as to what type of commander he can be.

Also, I don't the feeling the Vale declared for Jon. They recognize him as King in the North and have formed an alliance with the North, but that's altogether different than taking Jon as their King.