Jon Snow, King of the north and Vale

[Arya Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Thanks

Agreed completely. The Freefolk are basically the same as Northmen, they just happened to be on the wrong side of the Wall when it went up. Tormund & Davos have been Jon's most loyal supporters and should get their pick. I'd like to see Tormund get the Last Hearth of the Umbers, give Davos Karhold since it's near the water, not sure what to do with the Dreadfort. But what about all the people still in these castles? You're right, the vast majority of the fighting men are dead, but a token force must have been left at each stronghold, along with all the women, children and elderly. So what happens with them, are they sent away, put to the sword or do they bend the knee? And if they do bend the knee, can Jon trust 'em?

This is where, generally speaking, books are so superior to movies or tv shows. There's no time constraints. In a book we just get another chapter or two outlining all this stuff, no problem at all. But in a show, it's all gotta fit in an hour a week. It's like having a budget, you want pizza, beer and chicken wings but you can only afford two of the three, so a tough decision has to be made and something you really want has to go.

I am not sure if the Umbers and the Karstarks are extinct. There might be kids, nephews, other sons, etc. Like there is Alys Karstark in the books. Giving those lands to the wildlings or a southener (Davos) would definitely go against the will of those households, smallfolk, etc. So I hope Jon will let them be, though he might do what old Kings of Winter did (and what he does in the books, too): ask for boy-hostages, and keep them as wards (and execute them if the fathers misbehave).

The Boltons are done, that much is true, so the Dreadfort is up for grabs. I'm not sure, who should get it. Sansa, with a new husband of her choice? Davos? I would also put Sam Tarly here- he definitely wont inherit Horn Hill from his father, but he might be happy to get a castle of his own in the North, if the war ends (and he survives). 

The Wall will fall, and the WWs will be defeated hopefully, for good, so there won't be any need for a NW. So all those castles along the Wall should be given to the free folk - Tormund could get Castle Black.

[The Lord of Crows]

I think that when it1s all set and done Jon is going be rulling the Norht as the Lord of Winterfell. He is a bastard and doest not have a claim for the Iron throne strong enough in comparison with Danny. If you are interested, this is my video about Jon and Eagon, concerning the ToJ reveal scene from the season-finale.

 

[tormond]

3 hours ago, Arya Targaryen said:

I am not sure if the Umbers and the Karstarks are extinct. There might be kids, nephews, other sons, etc. Like there is Alys Karstark in the books. Giving those lands to the wildlings or a southener (Davos) would definitely go against the will of those households, smallfolk, etc. So I hope Jon will let them be, though he might do what old Kings of Winter did (and what he does in the books, too): ask for boy-hostages, and keep them as wards (and execute them if the fathers misbehave).

The will of those households, smallfolks?, What in the world are you talking about?. Did you not see that the Boltons, the Umbers and karstarks tried to eliminate whatever was left of the starks house. WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?, their Will?... what the........?. The starks were destroyed by the Boltons, and the Karstarks and the Umbers were ready to sweep up the rest. The umbers gave rickon to the boltons knowing full well what would happen to him. ahhhhhhhhhhh...seriously...seriously.  Im gonna be mercyfull here. The men that remain on those houses should be expelled from those lands or be subject to whom ever the lands is granted to, we are talking about those who are contrite here. They will loose all titles and claims and they should throw away their name, same for their kids and women. The names bolton, Umbers, and Karstarks should be erase for good, that's a given. Kill those rough looking ones who give bad vibe although i think those provably went to war, but kill the problematic ones. Women and children who have no husband or parents could be spread around among the other households provided that they throw away their name and be subject to the new household who allows them into their land. And like i said, some could stay in their own lands provided that the new lord allows them there. The north is huge, i dont know if there are lands that are not claimed or not wanted, some could be allowed to make a new life in those lands. And again, kill and expel those who are problematic. Yes definitely give some of those lands to the freefolk especially the Umbers if they want it. Lord tormund sounds good for a new house.

 

3 hours ago, Arya Targaryen said:

The Boltons are done, that much is true, so the Dreadfort is up for grabs. I'm not sure, who should get it. Sansa, with a new husband of her choice? Davos? I would also put Sam Tarly here- he definitely wont inherit Horn Hill from his father, but he might be happy to get a castle of his own in the North, if the war ends (and he survives). 

The Wall will fall, and the WWs will be defeated hopefully, for good, so there won't be any need for a NW. So all those castles along the Wall should be given to the free folk - Tormund could get Castle Black.

The lands should be spread among those who are loyal to Jon which include the freefolk. The Karstaks land could be given to Sansa, and a new wing of the stark name could flourish there. I definitely approve Davos to be make a new lord in the north and be given one of the lands. Sam and edd are welcome and i think they will prefer to stay either in winterfel or close to it and be part of the starks house or they could start their own houses with lands if that's what they want.

 

 

 

[Cron]

4 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

If memory serves he said "I've declared for House Stark for all to see" or something pretty close to that. Then Sansa said something like "you've declared for other houses too, how did that work out?" Kind of a nice burn by the redhead.

Good stuff.

I've been watchingold episodes on Blu-Ray (Season 3 most recently), and there's a scene where Varys says Littefinger is one of the most dangerous men in Westeros (or something like that)

I think Varys is right.  I think most people don't even realize how much chaos Littlefinger has sown.

[Darksky]

On 7.07.2016 at 9:31 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

No they didn't. They won that battle. Without them, Jon would be dead.

And Jon with his men made it an easy task for the Arryns. They had done a lot of damage to Ramsay's forces before the reinforcements came. The mounted Knights of the Vale faced a reduced, distracted and horseless army. They were able to flank them with ease thanks to Jon and his army.

[Arya Targaryen]

1 hour ago, tormond said:

The will of those households, smallfolks?, What in the world are you talking about?. Did you not see that the Boltons, the Umbers and karstarks tried to eliminate whatever was left of the starks house. WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?, their Will?... what the........?. The starks were destroyed by the Boltons, and the Karstarks and the Umbers were ready to sweep up the rest. The umbers gave rickon to the boltons knowing full well what would happen to him. ahhhhhhhhhhh...seriously...seriously.  Im gonna be mercyfull here. The men that remain on those houses should be expelled from those lands or be subject to whom ever the lands is granted to, we are talking about those who are contrite here. They will loose all titles and claims and they should throw away their name, same for their kids and women. The names bolton, Umbers, and Karstarks should be erase for good, that's a given. Kill those rough looking ones who give bad vibe although i think those provably went to war, but kill the problematic ones. Women and children who have no husband or parents could be spread around among the other households provided that they throw away their name and be subject to the new household who allows them into their land. And like i said, some could stay in their own lands provided that the new lord allows them there. The north is huge, i dont know if there are lands that are not claimed or not wanted, some could be allowed to make a new life in those lands. And again, kill and expel those who are problematic. Yes definitely give some of those lands to the freefolk especially the Umbers if they want it. Lord tormund sounds good for a new house.

 

The lands should be spread among those who are loyal to Jon which include the freefolk. The Karstaks land could be given to Sansa, and a new wing of the stark name could flourish there. I definitely approve Davos to be make a new lord in the north and be given one of the lands. Sam and edd are welcome and i think they will prefer to stay either in winterfel or close to it and be part of the starks house or they could start their own houses with lands if that's what they want.

 

 

 

So you think Jon will kill every man, woman and child on those lands? Or where would they spread them? And where would they get the replacement from? It is much easier to keep the ruling family there, if there is a suitable heir, and take a son as hostage. Kings of Winter did the exact same thing for ages. The Boltons rebelled several times, and they still rule the Dreadfort, they weren't wiped out (until recently).

In these times, the "will of those households" does matter, even if it is not easy to understand. Jon needs to prepare for war. Those lands need a Lord to whom those households are loyal without a question. The logistics to swap people around the North is just too... difficult - even the idea is ridiculous. They could really put that energy into preparing for the WW invasion instead of moving several thousands of people in and out. 

And where would you get the replacement from? From the other houses? They won't be too happy about it. The wildlings? I think Winterfell can use those few thousands (woman, children included), since its population was practically killed off in the last 3 years or so. And they may want to stay close to Jon, as he is the only person who can and is willing to protect them from whatever.

When the war is over, I can see Jon giving away the empty castles to his loyal friends, but until then, he certainly has other priorities.

[Rory Snow]

2 hours ago, Cron said:

I've been watchingold episodes on Blu-Ray (Season 3 most recently), and there's a scene where Varys says Littefinger is one of the most dangerous men in Westeros (or something like that)

I think Varys is right.  I think most people don't even realize how much chaos Littlefinger has sown.

Good catch.. and this is precisely why Baelish is so dangerous. Nobody (except maybe Sansa) seems to realize how much chaos has Petyr's fingerprints all over it. He doesn't come from a great house, he has a self deprecating nickname, together that causes all the snobby nobles to completely underestimate him, and Littlefinger has used that to great advantage.

[tormond]

1 hour ago, Arya Targaryen said:

So you think Jon will kill every man, woman and child on those lands? Or where would they spread them? And where would they get the replacement from? It is much easier to keep the ruling family there, if there is a suitable heir, and take a son as hostage. Kings of Winter did the exact same thing for ages. The Boltons rebelled several times, and they still rule the Dreadfort, they weren't wiped out (until recently).

In these times, the "will of those households" does matter, even if it is not easy to understand. Jon needs to prepare for war. Those lands need a Lord to whom those households are loyal without a question. The logistics to swap people around the North is just too... difficult - even the idea is ridiculous. They could really put that energy into preparing for the WW invasion instead of moving several thousands of people in and out. 

And where would you get the replacement from? From the other houses? They won't be too happy about it. The wildlings? I think Winterfell can use those few thousands (woman, children included), since its population was practically killed off in the last 3 years or so. And they may want to stay close to Jon, as he is the only person who can and is willing to protect them from whatever.

When the war is over, I can see Jon giving away the empty castles to his loyal friends, but until then, he certainly has other priorities.

first of all We were talking about after the war with WW but it seems to me that you want to distort what the message was, maybe confuse the poster and mess it up a bit?. So do i think Jon will kill every man women and child on those lands?, Was that what i said?, cause im sure that wasnt what i said. I dont have the patience for this, for goodness sake you want to win a debate here?, you want to chubacca defensed a post that you disagree with?. i hate this because it's like a trick and you have 2 choices, respond with a long post and loose patience or not respond. I CLEARLY SAID THAT THEY SHOULD BE EXPELLED, and all claim to lands, name and titles should be taken from them. I even said that some can still keep their lands if the new lord allows them to. And yes i said they should be spread out to be subject among the other lords including the starks. Now when Robb went to war, how many starks and their servants were left in winterfell?, lets see, Bran, rickon, lets count Arya (she was suppose to return), lets count catelyn too. 4 starks, servants: lets say 15 to 20 (im being generous), and we are talking about here the largest richest house. So in reality we are not talking about a lot people here left back home. Maybe there some smaller houses close to winterfell but like i said, most of them went to war even women. Winterfell was ruined when the starks were destroyed, the servants ran for the hills or were killed. The boltons had no problem taking over Winterfel and refilled it with new servants. Oh geeesshhhh see this is the problem responding to post like this. They jumbled what you say and you are left repeating yourself in a long post that makes you tired more than anything else. You win? seriously the chewbacca defense?

 

"The will of those households". what those that mean, a lesser the north remember thing?. Even thou i dont want to go on with this post, let me remind you that this is not the books and the north remember thing in the show meant nothing, it was mostly a joke.

[Cron]

4 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Good catch.. and this is precisely why Baelish is so dangerous. Nobody (except maybe Sansa) seems to realize how much chaos has Petyr's fingerprints all over it. He doesn't come from a great house, he has a self deprecating nickname, together that causes all the snobby nobles to completely underestimate him, and Littlefinger has used that to great advantage.

Yep.

A strong case can be made that Littlefinger set nearly ALL of the current chaos into motion.

I'm sure the numerous ASOIAF experts on these boards realize this (seriously), but how many casual GOT and/or ASOIAF fans even realize that Littlefinger talked Lysa Arryn into poisoning Jon Arryn????  What percent of casual fans probably believe, to this day, that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn??

There's a LOT of talk about how Jon Arryn discovered the truth about Jaime and Cersei and their kids, and I would not bat an eye to discover that half of casual fans (or more, possibly a lot more) think to this day that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn.

But the Lannisters didn't, LITTLEFINGER did it!  And THEN Littlefinger had Lysa send the letter to Cat with lies in it, expressly blaming the Lannisters, further compounding and exacerbating the confusion and chaos (in Westeros, and, in my opinion, very likely among casual fans, too).

Then Littlefinger falsely misled Cat and Ned into believing Tyrion tried to have Bran killed by the assassin when he lied and said he lost the dagger to Tyrion on a bet (the number of people who died from this lie by Littlefinger alone is staggering, it was b/c of this lie that Cat grabbed Tyrion, causing the Lannisters to send the Mountain and others to wreak havoc in the Riverlands, setting off all of THOSE events), THEN Littlefinger directly betrayed Ned Stark, leading to HIS death, and then Littlefinger conspired with Olenna to have Joffrey poisoned (again with other, innocent people taking the blame).

WOW.  That is quite a list, and I wouldn't be surprised if I left some things out that I didn't think of offhand.  An argument can be made that Littlefinger is directly or indirectly responsible for nearly everything (except stuff going on in Essos, with Dany, I guess.  Maybe some of the Dorne stuff, too.)

[Rory Snow]

24 minutes ago, Cron said:

WOW.  That is quite a list, and I wouldn't be surprised if I left some things out that I didn't think of offhand.  An argument can be made that Littlefinger is directly or indirectly responsible for nearly everything (except stuff going on in Essos, with Dany, I guess.  Maybe some of the Dorne stuff, too.)

It's funny, i mentioned earlier how so many characters underestimate Baelish while all the while I was underestimating him too! I was aware of all the things you mentioned individually but you can't really appreciate the damage Littlefinger has inflicted until you look at it collectively. That list of "achievements" you've come up with is certainly an impressive catalog of mayhem. He may well be the worst bad guy on the show, a true puppet master.

[Tywin Tytosson]

9 hours ago, Arya Targaryen said:

I am not sure if the Umbers and the Karstarks are extinct. There might be kids, nephews, other sons, etc. Like there is Alys Karstark in the books. Giving those lands to the wildlings or a southener (Davos) would definitely go against the will of those households, smallfolk, etc. So I hope Jon will let them be, though he might do what old Kings of Winter did (and what he does in the books, too): ask for boy-hostages, and keep them as wards (and execute them if the fathers misbehave).

The Boltons are done, that much is true, so the Dreadfort is up for grabs. I'm not sure, who should get it. Sansa, with a new husband of her choice? Davos? I would also put Sam Tarly here- he definitely wont inherit Horn Hill from his father, but he might be happy to get a castle of his own in the North, if the war ends (and he survives). 

The Wall will fall, and the WWs will be defeated hopefully, for good, so there won't be any need for a NW. So all those castles along the Wall should be given to the free folk - Tormund could get Castle Black.

Re. the Dreadfort... I would expect it to be given to Sansa.  At the end of the day, if Sansa's threat/promise to Ramsays holds, I would expect the Dreadfort to be pulled down and then burned.  Salt would then be sown into the ashes and environs.

Any neighboring houses with claim or dispute vs the Boltons should, of course have these settled in their favor.

 

[Tywin Tytosson]

19 hours ago, Arya Targaryen said:

I would have loved that, too.

Maybe now, that most of the KL crew is dead, Dany is coming to Westeros (together with Tyrion and co), they will have more time for each storyline. Especially if Arya and Mel meet up with the Hound and the Brotherhood, and Bran arriving in Winterfell - that would mean 4 storylines: the North, King's Landing, Brotherhood&Arya and Dany (plus WWs, but they don't need too much time). They can spend more time with them, instead of the 12 x 5 minutes per episodes.

I think all 3 of us would have loved this kind of ep and ate it up.  But I'm not sure that the general set of viewers would have done so.   ;-)

[Cron]

1 hour ago, Rory Snow said:

It's funny, i mentioned earlier how so many characters underestimate Baelish while all the while I was underestimating him too! I was aware of all the things you mentioned individually but you can't really appreciate the damage Littlefinger has inflicted until you look at it collectively. That list of "achievements" you've come up with is certainly an impressive catalog of mayhem. He may well be the worst bad guy on the show, a true puppet master.

Regarding your "he may well be the worst bad guy on the show" comment.

Yeah, I was thinking almost the exact same thing earlier, seems like he's the biggest villain, other than the White Walker crew.

Littlefinger has got to be responsible for the deaths of thousands and thousands and thousands of people.  Guys like the  Mountain and Ramsay Bolton are small fry compared to Littlefinger.

And the story's not even over yet.

[Arya Targaryen]

7 hours ago, tormond said:

first of all We were talking about after the war with WW but it seems to me that you want to distort what the message was, maybe confuse the poster and mess it up a bit?. So do i think Jon will kill every man women and child on those lands?, Was that what i said?, cause im sure that wasnt what i said. I dont have the patience for this, for goodness sake you want to win a debate here?, you want to chubacca defensed a post that you disagree with?. i hate this because it's like a trick and you have 2 choices, respond with a long post and loose patience or not respond. I CLEARLY SAID THAT THEY SHOULD BE EXPELLED, and all claim to lands, name and titles should be taken from them. I even said that some can still keep their lands if the new lord allows them to. And yes i said they should be spread out to be subject among the other lords including the starks. Now when Robb went to war, how many starks and their servants were left in winterfell?, lets see, Bran, rickon, lets count Arya (she was suppose to return), lets count catelyn too. 4 starks, servants: lets say 15 to 20 (im being generous), and we are talking about here the largest richest house. So in reality we are not talking about a lot people here left back home. Maybe there some smaller houses close to winterfell but like i said, most of them went to war even women. Winterfell was ruined when the starks were destroyed, the servants ran for the hills or were killed. The boltons had no problem taking over Winterfel and refilled it with new servants. Oh geeesshhhh see this is the problem responding to post like this. They jumbled what you say and you are left repeating yourself in a long post that makes you tired more than anything else. You win? seriously the chewbacca defense?

 

"The will of those households". what those that mean, a lesser the north remember thing?. Even thou i dont want to go on with this post, let me remind you that this is not the books and the north remember thing in the show meant nothing, it was mostly a joke.

Actually I typed out a more accurate, and longer answer to your previous post, and it just disappeared. I tried to make it simpler next time, so it wasn' that accurate, sorry about that. 

It wasn't clear to me, that "after the war" was meant to mean "after the WW invasion", but for me, it's still the same. I just don't think that the servants and younger relatives of Umbers and Karstrks should be punished because of what the Smalljon and Harald (?) Karstark did. If you think they must be punished (take the lands, the titles, expel them, kill them, spread them, whatever), than we disagree, it's simple as that. You were the one who was so upset about what I wrote in response for your previous post, with CAPS LOCK on and stuff, like you are really offended by my opinion. Chill out, it is just fiction.

And yes, I think that when other relatives are available, especially, if children are available as heirs to Houses Umber and Karstark, they should not be wiped out - or their titles and lands should not be taken away. Because it's not their fault. I understand if someone wants vengence like that, I just don't think, it will happen, especially if Jon is the one who needs to decide what will happen to those lands. 

I don't know much about mediavel systems, but I do think that when the Smalljon gave Rickon to the Boltons, because he feared that his lands will be overrun by the wildlings Jon let through the Wall, it resonated well with all the smallfolk living in his lands - and it's not because they wanted to betray the Starks: it's because they feared for their own lives. We know better, but why would those folks know it in-story? For them, the Umbers did what needed to be done to protect their lands from the wildlings. Should they get a new lord after the war (in Last Hearth or somewhere else, if they have to move), is not the same, as experiencing the royal pardon for House Umber, reinstalling an heir, even if in direct control from Winterfell.

And since you are talking about after the WW-war: who is to say that the remaining Umbers and Karstarks and their men won't fight bravely in those wars? I can totally see it. So why would you take away their lands after the WW invasion, if the prove to be a great help?

Re: the number of men in Winterfell after Robb left: I might not remember well, but Bran sent like 200 men to fight the Ironborn? And it left Winterfell undermanned (still about 50 or so fighting men). That means 250 men, plus women and children (and other servants) in times of war, when the army is marching south. (Which means in the begining WF population must have been in the thousands (2-3 thousands at least). You can't just man a castle like Winterfell with 15-20 servants, even if it looked like that in the show. they should aim towards 500 or so (men) and at least the same number of women. And the Winterfell crew is practially dead, so they need to gather those men from either the wildlings or from other houses. (I'm also not sure why you counted Arya - she was't supposed to return).

[CrypticWeirwood]

On July 1, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

11 hours ago, Cron said:

Then Littlefinger falsely misled Cat and Ned into believing Tyrion tried to have Bran killed by the assassin when he lied and said he lost the dagger to Tyrion on a bet

He did no such thing!

He truly misled them, for if he had falsely misled them, then they would not have believed him.

[tormond]

14 hours ago, Cron said:

Yep.

A strong case can be made that Littlefinger set nearly ALL of the current chaos into motion.

I'm sure the numerous ASOIAF experts on these boards realize this (seriously), but how many casual GOT and/or ASOIAF fans even realize that Littlefinger talked Lysa Arryn into poisoning Jon Arryn????  What percent of casual fans probably believe, to this day, that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn??

There's a LOT of talk about how Jon Arryn discovered the truth about Jaime and Cersei and their kids, and I would not bat an eye to discover that half of casual fans (or more, possibly a lot more) think to this day that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn.

But the Lannisters didn't, LITTLEFINGER did it!  And THEN Littlefinger had Lysa send the letter to Cat with lies in it, expressly blaming the Lannisters, further compounding and exacerbating the confusion and chaos (in Westeros, and, in my opinion, very likely among casual fans, too).

Then Littlefinger falsely misled Cat and Ned into believing Tyrion tried to have Bran killed by the assassin when he lied and said he lost the dagger to Tyrion on a bet (the number of people who died from this lie by Littlefinger alone is staggering, it was b/c of this lie that Cat grabbed Tyrion, causing the Lannisters to send the Mountain and others to wreak havoc in the Riverlands, setting off all of THOSE events), THEN Littlefinger directly betrayed Ned Stark, leading to HIS death, and then Littlefinger conspired with Olenna to have Joffrey poisoned (again with other, innocent people taking the blame).

WOW.  That is quite a list, and I wouldn't be surprised if I left some things out that I didn't think of offhand.  An argument can be made that Littlefinger is directly or indirectly responsible for nearly everything (except stuff going on in Essos, with Dany, I guess.  Maybe some of the Dorne stuff, too.)

this is true, but lets not forget that he had a lot of help from the Tully sisters. Catelyn tully did major harm to the Stark house

[permaximum]

Littlefinger is also behind the imprisonment of Cersei, Margaery and Loras. He simply destroyed lots of great houses which I liked tremendously.

[Cron]

12 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

He did no such thing!

He truly misled them, for if he had falsely misled them, then they would not have believed him.

What I meant was that he misled them with a false statement, or misled them falsely.

Grammar and semantics can be interesting to discuss, and that's fine with me here, but I beiieve this issue could be validly viewed either way (yours or mine)

[the conquering bastard 25]

On 7/1/2016 at 11:50 AM, mbuehner said:

Congrats for reading into events what you saw coming.

now now no need for sarcasm. Me and Lee have been having this debat for about a year. So I am allowed to gloat just a little bit don't you think? Wouldn't you if the roles were reversed?