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What was the original plan for Lyanna?


ginny11

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So, if Ned hadn't shown up with his posse, what was the original plan for after Lyanna gave birth? Were they going to whisk her away across the Narrow Sea to go into hiding, as they did with Daenerys and Viserys? Or were the KG just always planning to stay there ("KG doesn't run away") and just fight whoever might show up and find them? Any ideas? 

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Only the KG would know if Rhaegar left orders in case he didn't make it.

Maybe he just ordered to keep her safe while he was away.

In that case, they KG were just waiting for her to deliver and then take her to some Targaryen loyalist or  Dorne probably.  

 

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On 6/28/2016 at 6:31 AM, Kytheros said:

We don't know enough to speculate on what the plan would have been if Ned and company hadn't shown up and Lyanna hadn't died from complications.

This in a nutshell.....

On 6/27/2016 at 7:52 PM, ginny11 said:

So, if Ned hadn't shown up with his posse, what was the original plan for after Lyanna gave birth? Were they going to whisk her away across the Narrow Sea to go into hiding, as they did with Daenerys and Viserys? Or were the KG just always planning to stay there ("KG doesn't run away") and just fight whoever might show up and find them? Any ideas? 

So many what if's, But we do know the "True KGs" protect the royal family. So IMO, if Jon is trueborn( Or not ) they would've taken him and his mother to safety, maybe Dorne? Because around the time of his birth, the Martells were still pissed about Elia and her children being murdered. Oberyrn was even calling for the Kingdoms to rally for Viserys claim IIRC.

Or maybe they link up with Queen Rhaella and her forces on Dragonstone? But Regardless, since they were at the ToJ and instead of out fighting with their prince, we can see Rhaegar orders was for them to protect Lyanna and his newborn. Had Lyanna and the KGs lived, they would've continued to follow that order.

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On 6/27/2016 at 7:52 PM, ginny11 said:

So, if Ned hadn't shown up with his posse, what was the original plan for after Lyanna gave birth? Were they going to whisk her away across the Narrow Sea to go into hiding, as they did with Daenerys and Viserys? Or were the KG just always planning to stay there ("KG doesn't run away") and just fight whoever might show up and find them? Any ideas? 

I personally think the original plan was to win the war, and crown rhaegar. Then she wouldn't need to be kept a secret. But then rhaegar died, so they probably started making plans to whisk her and jon away to the free cities. Or they would hide out in dorne. I think the dorne plan became more of a possibility when they realized lyanna would die. The wet nurse could take him and claim him as her own. It is interesting to think about.. those women who helped lyanna hide away, who probably saw Ned and company waste the KG, and most likely discussed plans with her for jon, were that willing to let him take the baby? Lyanna just pulled that crazy plan out of thin air? Oh good, Ned you are here. I wasn't sure what to do, but now that you're here, you can take him, and pretend he is yours. That's a pretty crazy plan.. what a lucky break, him being gone to war just long enough that he can claim jon and it's believable.

Thinking about it like that makes me question if they knew Ned was coming and had the plan ready.. but why did he have to kill the KG? Why didn't they just welcome him..? There's so many holes. I hope the books can explain it better than the show.

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I doubt the plan would have been to take Lyanna and baby Jon to Dorne. Unless Rhaegar already discussed Lyanna with the Martells, it would probably come off as an insult to them to bring the woman Rhaegar chose over Elia to Dorne. There was already tension between the two families as Elia was always ill, and she did not feel loved by Rhaegar.

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1 hour ago, brightflame princess said:

Thinking about it like that makes me question if they knew Ned was coming and had the plan ready.. but why did he have to kill the KG? Why didn't they just welcome him..?

The Kingsguard told us what they were doing, they were upholding their vow.  What was their vow?  Review the vow that Lady Brienne recites first to Catelyn, and then to Sansa, it ends, "to die for you if need be."  Those Kingsguard should have won, but the gods frowned upon them and they died for their king.  Lyanna had to beg Ned to promise to keep the child safe.  Ned had just defeated the Targaryens, and driven the remainder to Dragonstone.  Ned was part of the army that saw the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon; there was no guarantee that he would not do the same with the child. 

The fight at the tower was two sides of an honorable coin.  It was destined to happen.  The outcome is unforeseen.  To see the (book) dialog analyzed follow the link in my signature, "at the tower of joy". 

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4 hours ago, JMJ said:

I doubt the plan would have been to take Lyanna and baby Jon to Dorne. Unless Rhaegar already discussed Lyanna with the Martells, it would probably come off as an insult to them to bring the woman Rhaegar chose over Elia to Dorne. There was already tension between the two families as Elia was always ill, and she did not feel loved by Rhaegar.

That's a good point. 

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On 7/12/2016 at 11:12 AM, JMJ said:

I doubt the plan would have been to take Lyanna and baby Jon to Dorne. Unless Rhaegar already discussed Lyanna with the Martells, it would probably come off as an insult to them to bring the woman Rhaegar chose over Elia to Dorne. There was already tension between the two families as Elia was always ill, and she did not feel loved by Rhaegar.

I agree with that. Relations between House Martell and the Iron Throne were always pretty salty. If Lyanna had given birth and Ned didn't show up to rescue her, I think Ser Arthur would have taken baby Jon to Starfall to be raised in secret. Maybe his sister Ashara could have raised him as HER bastard son, so he'd be Jon Sand.

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On 7/12/2016 at 8:12 AM, JMJ said:

I doubt the plan would have been to take Lyanna and baby Jon to Dorne. Unless Rhaegar already discussed Lyanna with the Martells, it would probably come off as an insult to them to bring the woman Rhaegar chose over Elia to Dorne. There was already tension between the two families as Elia was always ill, and she did not feel loved by Rhaegar.

True, but I still think the Martells would've sided with the Targaryens as their princess and her children were just murdered by the Usurper faction.

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On July 12, 2016 at 10:49 AM, MtnLion said:

The Kingsguard told us what they were doing, they were upholding their vow.  What was their vow?  Review the vow that Lady Brienne recites first to Catelyn, and then to Sansa, it ends, "to die for you if need be."  Those Kingsguard should have won, but the gods frowned upon them and they died for their king.

I presume you meant they died for FakeJon here.  They certainly didn’t die for Aerys or Viserys.

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19 hours ago, Sir Matthis Light said:

True, but I still think the Martells would've sided with the Targaryens as their princess and her children were just murdered by the Usurper faction.

Possible, but also keep in mind that child is half-Stark, in league with Robert Baratheon, and at least from the Martell perspective, on the same side as the Lannisters who just murdered Elia and her children. It would have been a lot to ask the Martells. I do agree with below, that it must have been that Arthur Dayne was also given instructions to take care of Lyanna and baby Jon if need be, as even if they expected Ned to show up at the Tower, they certainly expected the Kingsguard to be able to fend them off.

 

21 hours ago, HookedOnSonics518 said:

I agree with that. Relations between House Martell and the Iron Throne were always pretty salty. If Lyanna had given birth and Ned didn't show up to rescue her, I think Ser Arthur would have taken baby Jon to Starfall to be raised in secret. Maybe his sister Ashara could have raised him as HER bastard son, so he'd be Jon Sand.

 

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when you think about it, its a bit silly that the whole reason Ned and company showed up was to check on Lyanna and ensure her well being... and that's exactly what the KG's were there for.  So, Ned's entire company (minus him and HR) as well as the KG all kill each other just so that Ned can make it to the tower and try to help his sister out.  I think it would have behooved everyone to just discuss the situation and figure out that they were all on the same side so to speak.  In the end, Ned and HR ended up protecting Lyanna's baby from the rest of the world anyways - so it seems like that fight was all for naught.  The KG could have simply said - we will only permit Ned to go up and see his sister and the rest would have turned out the same.  

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@Trump the Builder

The KH would have never been happy with how Ned treated Jon. Hiding him in the North, treating him as a bastard and eventually allowing him to join the Night's Watch is completely against what the KG stood for. After the death of Aerys and Rhaegar, the KG considered Jon their king, and could not allow anyone to "erase" his lineage.

While both sides cared for Jon's welfare, their ultimate goals were not compatible at all. Eddard wanted to keep him safe from Robert by hiding his identity, while the KG wanted to keep him safe from Robert by crowning him and killing the Usurper.

 

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6 hours ago, Trump the Builder said:

when you think about it, its a bit silly that the whole reason Ned and company showed up was to check on Lyanna and ensure her well being... and that's exactly what the KG's were there for.  So, Ned's entire company (minus him and HR) as well as the KG all kill each other just so that Ned can make it to the tower and try to help his sister out.  I think it would have behooved everyone to just discuss the situation and figure out that they were all on the same side so to speak.  In the end, Ned and HR ended up protecting Lyanna's baby from the rest of the world anyways - so it seems like that fight was all for naught.  The KG could have simply said - we will only permit Ned to go up and see his sister and the rest would have turned out the same.  

Sure, that is logical and makes sense, but this story highlights the tragedy of war, and the life altering effects people have on each other. Therefore the loss of life of many honorable people at the Tower of Joy sustains the tragedy underlying the entire story.

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3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

@Trump the Builder

The KH would have never been happy with how Ned treated Jon. Hiding him in the North, treating him as a bastard and eventually allowing him to join the Night's Watch is completely against what the KG stood for. After the death of Aerys and Rhaegar, the KG considered Jon their king, and could not allow anyone to "erase" his lineage.

While both sides cared for Jon's welfare, their ultimate goals were not compatible at all. Eddard wanted to keep him safe from Robert by hiding his identity, while the KG wanted to keep him safe from Robert by crowning him and killing the Usurper.

 

i understand what you are saying, but it sounds a bit naive to think that the KG would be so hellbent on crowning a new born their king.  perhaps he was the rightful heir at that point, but the remaining KG would easily be killed had they taken the newborn Jon back to KL and pronounced him King.  At that point in time, they had no foot to stand on and by far the best idea was to hide Jon for the time being.  I don't agree with what you say that Ned wanted to erase his lineage and forced him to join the Night's Watch.  The decision to join the Crows was Jon's alone and I think it was pretty clear that Ned had always treated Jon like a son.  It was his wife that was behind any of the reasons why he may have been treated like a Bastard.  Unfortunately, Ned's story ended before he was able to tell Jon the secret - but we do know that he wanted to reveal the secret to him - which in my eyes is proof enough that he didn't want to remove his lineage.  

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1 hour ago, Trump the Builder said:

i understand what you are saying, but it sounds a bit naive to think that the KG would be so hellbent on crowning a new born their king.  perhaps he was the rightful heir at that point, but the remaining KG would easily be killed had they taken the newborn Jon back to KL and pronounced him King.  At that point in time, they had no foot to stand on and by far the best idea was to hide Jon for the time being.  I don't agree with what you say that Ned wanted to erase his lineage and forced him to join the Night's Watch.  The decision to join the Crows was Jon's alone and I think it was pretty clear that Ned had always treated Jon like a son.  It was his wife that was behind any of the reasons why he may have been treated like a Bastard.  Unfortunately, Ned's story ended before he was able to tell Jon the secret - but we do know that he wanted to reveal the secret to him - which in my eyes is proof enough that he didn't want to remove his lineage.  

First, keep in mind at the time of Robert's Rebellion, the situation was very fluid and dynamic. I can't remember if the time line was precisely laid out as such, but Rhaegar probably kept Lyanna at the TOJ, with the KG there to protect her as he left to meet Robert at the Trident. One must presume Rhaegar was expecting or hoping to defeat Robert there, and then things would be fine. I would presume also that the KG were there not only to protect against Robert's forces, but to take care of Lyanna even if the Targs won but Rhaegar was killed. Unfortunately of course, the outcome was much worse for their side, and the end result of Jon being with Ned was not what anyone probably initially intended.

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2 hours ago, Trump the Builder said:

i understand what you are saying, but it sounds a bit naive to think that the KG would be so hellbent on crowning a new born their king.  perhaps he was the rightful heir at that point, but the remaining KG would easily be killed had they taken the newborn Jon back to KL and pronounced him King.  At that point in time, they had no foot to stand on and by far the best idea was to hide Jon for the time being.  I don't agree with what you say that Ned wanted to erase his lineage and forced him to join the Night's Watch.  The decision to join the Crows was Jon's alone and I think it was pretty clear that Ned had always treated Jon like a son.  It was his wife that was behind any of the reasons why he may have been treated like a Bastard.  Unfortunately, Ned's story ended before he was able to tell Jon the secret - but we do know that he wanted to reveal the secret to him - which in my eyes is proof enough that he didn't want to remove his lineage.  

Maybe, but the moment you sign on for Night's Watch, you remove your lineage - check Maester Aemon. So yes, Ned did want to remove Jon's lineage

I was also speculating a What IF TOJ KG lived situation. They could allow Ned to keep the boy for safekeeping as his bastard, but they would not tolerate NW question. They would consider that a breach of their trust with Ned and I can see them attempting to grab Jon and run before he could have swore any oaths for NW

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17 hours ago, Masha said:

Maybe, but the moment you sign on for Night's Watch, you remove your lineage - check Maester Aemon. So yes, Ned did want to remove Jon's lineage

I was also speculating a What IF TOJ KG lived situation. They could allow Ned to keep the boy for safekeeping as his bastard, but they would not tolerate NW question. They would consider that a breach of their trust with Ned and I can see them attempting to grab Jon and run before he could have swore any oaths for NW

I don't feel like it was Ned that wanted Jon to join the NW though.  For the Starks and many northerners, joining the Night's Watch was a very honorable thing to do.  It hadn't always been a company filled with murderers and thieves and such - it was prestigious to defend Westeros from any "evil" that tried to come south of the wall.  Besides that, I feel like Jon wanted to do this because he was very unsure of his place with the Starks and never felt like he fit it - probably because of how Cat treated him.

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