What was the original plan for Lyanna?

[[Deleted]]

On 7/19/2016 at 8:56 PM, Trump the Builder said:

when you think about it, its a bit silly that the whole reason Ned and company showed up was to check on Lyanna and ensure her well being... and that's exactly what the KG's were there for.  So, Ned's entire company (minus him and HR) as well as the KG all kill each other just so that Ned can make it to the tower and try to help his sister out.  I think it would have behooved everyone to just discuss the situation and figure out that they were all on the same side so to speak.  In the end, Ned and HR ended up protecting Lyanna's baby from the rest of the world anyways - so it seems like that fight was all for naught.  The KG could have simply said - we will only permit Ned to go up and see his sister and the rest would have turned out the same.  

I don't think Ned was just there to "check on" his sister. Remember, he was Robert's 2nd in command and for all anyone knew, Rhaegar has kidnapped Lyanna. Ned was there to get her back, which is why the fight ensued.

I do wonder how Ned learned the truth.

[Trump the Builder]

5 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

I don't think Ned was just there to "check on" his sister. Remember, he was Robert's 2nd in command and for all anyone knew, Rhaegar has kidnapped Lyanna. Ned was there to get her back, which is why the fight ensued.

I do wonder how Ned learned the truth.

good point, he was probably one of Robert's trusted soldiers and maybe sent to do his bidding - still, from what i know about Ned and how honorable and family oriented he was, i think he would have put his sister's well being above all else

[[Deleted]]

3 hours ago, Trump the Builder said:

good point, he was probably one of Robert's trusted soldiers and maybe sent to do his bidding - still, from what i know about Ned and how honorable and family oriented he was, i think he would have put his sister's well being above all else

No doubt. And that's exactly why Robert would want Ned leading the mission to get her back, because he knows Ned probably cares about her just as much, if not more than, he himself did.

[Kytheros]

On 7/22/2016 at 7:48 AM, Trump the Builder said:

good point, he was probably one of Robert's trusted soldiers and maybe sent to do his bidding - still, from what i know about Ned and how honorable and family oriented he was, i think he would have put his sister's well being above all else

 

On 7/22/2016 at 11:10 AM, Aegonzo The Great said:

No doubt. And that's exactly why Robert would want Ned leading the mission to get her back, because he knows Ned probably cares about her just as much, if not more than, he himself did.

 

I don't believe that Robert knew about Ned's expedition to the ToJ until well afterwards. If Robert had known about it, he'd've tried to go and save Lyanna himself.

 

[xjlxking]

I assumed

-they took her far from kings landing in case a seige occurred. 

-I don't think the Targ side expected to lose at the Trident River. 

Remember what Robert said, he(I assume he is talking about Rheagar) thought he can end the rebellion with the swing in his sword. 

 

[[Deleted]]

4 hours ago, Kytheros said:

 

 

I don't believe that Robert knew about Ned's expedition to the ToJ until well afterwards. If Robert had known about it, he'd've tried to go and save Lyanna himself.

 

Something I've always wondered is: how did Ned know where to find her? And how soon after the battle at the Trident did the ToJ happen? And you have a point, we don't know if Robert even knew about Ned going to find her. 

Still a lot of unanswered questions..... But the biggest have to be who knew what, when did they know, and how did they know.

[MtnLion]

21 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

Something I've always wondered is: how did Ned know where to find her? And how soon after the battle at the Trident did the ToJ happen? And you have a point, we don't know if Robert even knew about Ned going to find her. 

Still a lot of unanswered questions..... But the biggest have to be who knew what, when did they know, and how did they know.

First, let's take a quick look at the timeline.  Jaime says that Jonothor Darry was with him the night that Chelsted was roasted and Raella raped.  Jonothor goes with Rhaegar to the Trident and dies there.  But, Chelsted's replacement is killed by Jaime after being in office for a mere fortnight.  This indicates that the time between Rhaella's rape and the sack of King's Landing is a fortnight.  Further evidence is that Jaime recalls seeing the evidence of the rape on Rhaella as she was boarding ship for Dragonstone, after news had arrived of Rhaegar's failure.  The marks would have faded in about a week's time, and be invisible at a fortnight.  That is what we have been given regarding that timeline.  

Much earlier still, we have Brandon riding off to King's Landing with his squire, Ethan Glover in tow.  Interestingly Ethan Glover is a member of Ned's party at the tower of joy.  Having spent a year in the Black Cells, why is Ethan making a dangerous trip with Ned?  He can't fight, he was just a squire.  But worse yet, he had suffered the normal deprivations of being jailed for a long period of time.  This suggests that Ethan Glover was necessary for Ned to reach his goal.  

Robert and Ned quarreled when Jaime was pardoned.  It was worse when the bloody bodies of Elia and her children were presented.  Ned was furious, and only Jon Arryn was able to defuse the situation that appeared to be leading towards a war in King's Landing, between Robert and Ned.  Ned was sent to settle the last battles of the rebellion.  We know that Ned went to Storm's End.  There he accepted the surrender of the loyalist forces, and Stannis was tasked with taking Dragonstone.  It would take another year to build the ships needed for the assault, and we must believe that Ned went from Storm's End to the tower of joy.  

What GRRM has given us is that Daenerys is 8 to 9 months younger than Jon.  Since Daenerys (if she is truly Aerys' git) can only have been started a fortnight before the fall of King's Landing, Jon was born not later than a fortnight after the fall of King's Landing.  The best minds suggest that the fever that Lyanna had was puerperal fever, which kills in 4 to 10 days after delivery.  (GRRM has stipulated one case that was three days.)  Ned arrives at the tower of joy not more than 24 days after the fall of King's Landing.  (GRRM says, "Put away your rulers and stop watches, and enjoy the story."  He has never been good at making travel times consistent or believable.)  

[[Deleted]]

5 hours ago, MtnLion said:

First, let's take a quick look at the timeline.  Jaime says that Jonothor Darry was with him the night that Chelsted was roasted and Raella raped.  Jonothor goes with Rhaegar to the Trident and dies there.  But, Chelsted's replacement is killed by Jaime after being in office for a mere fortnight.  This indicates that the time between Rhaella's rape and the sack of King's Landing is a fortnight.  Further evidence is that Jaime recalls seeing the evidence of the rape on Rhaella as she was boarding ship for Dragonstone, after news had arrived of Rhaegar's failure.  The marks would have faded in about a week's time, and be invisible at a fortnight.  That is what we have been given regarding that timeline.  

Much earlier still, we have Brandon riding off to King's Landing with his squire, Ethan Glover in tow.  Interestingly Ethan Glover is a member of Ned's party at the tower of joy.  Having spent a year in the Black Cells, why is Ethan making a dangerous trip with Ned?  He can't fight, he was just a squire.  But worse yet, he had suffered the normal deprivations of being jailed for a long period of time.  This suggests that Ethan Glover was necessary for Ned to reach his goal.  

Robert and Ned quarreled when Jaime was pardoned.  It was worse when the bloody bodies of Elia and her children were presented.  Ned was furious, and only Jon Arryn was able to defuse the situation that appeared to be leading towards a war in King's Landing, between Robert and Ned.  Ned was sent to settle the last battles of the rebellion.  We know that Ned went to Storm's End.  There he accepted the surrender of the loyalist forces, and Stannis was tasked with taking Dragonstone.  It would take another year to build the ships needed for the assault, and we must believe that Ned went from Storm's End to the tower of joy.  

What GRRM has given us is that Daenerys is 8 to 9 months younger than Jon.  Since Daenerys (if she is truly Aerys' git) can only have been started a fortnight before the fall of King's Landing, Jon was born not later than a fortnight after the fall of King's Landing.  The best minds suggest that the fever that Lyanna had was puerperal fever, which kills in 4 to 10 days after delivery.  (GRRM has stipulated one case that was three days.)  Ned arrives at the tower of joy not more than 24 days after the fall of King's Landing.  (GRRM says, "Put away your rulers and stop watches, and enjoy the story."  He has never been good at making travel times consistent or believable.)  

This all makes sense. But I'm still wondering what Robert knew. He just took King's Landing and still can't find his betrothed, did he know where she was and send Ned to get her? Or did Glover (as you hinted) hold the key?

Despite what GRRM said, I still think the question of who/what/when/how when related to knowledge is still something I'd like to see answered regarding the end of the Rebellion.

[MtnLion]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 9:02 PM, Aegonzo The Great said:

This all makes sense. But I'm still wondering what Robert knew. He just took King's Landing and still can't find his betrothed, did he know where she was and send Ned to get her? Or did Glover (as you hinted) hold the key?

Despite what GRRM said, I still think the question of who/what/when/how when related to knowledge is still something I'd like to see answered regarding the end of the Rebellion.

Did you miss the fact that Ned and Robert were suffering a split?  That Ned was all for leading the armies against Robert in King's Landing?  The only way that both survived past the coronation was that Jon Arryn had soothed Ned, and sent him on to finish the campaign.  It wasn't until later, and I believe it was at Cersei's and Robert's wedding, that Ned and Robert mended their friendship over a shared grief of Lyanna's death. 

Well, Glover was in King's Landing when Rhaegar returned to lead the loyalist forces.  Could Rhaegar have provided him some information for Stark ears only?  I just find it very interesting that GRRM included Ethan in Ned's party at the tower.  There is nothing to indicate why. 

This is a very comprehensive detailing of what is known. 

[[Deleted]]

24 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

Did you miss the fact that Ned and Robert were suffering a split?  That Ned was all for leading the armies against Robert in King's Landing?  The only way that both survived past the coronation was that Jon Arryn had soothed Ned, and sent him on to finish the campaign.  It wasn't until later, and I believe it was at Cersei's and Robert's wedding, that Ned and Robert mended their friendship over a shared grief of Lyanna's death. 

Well, Glover was in King's Landing when Rhaegar returned to lead the loyalist forces.  Could Rhaegar have provided him some information for Stark ears only?  I just find it very interesting that GRRM included Ethan in Ned's party at the tower.  There is nothing to indicate why. 

This is a very comprehensive detailing of what is known. 

I have read that page before, but it doesn't give any indication of Ned and Robert being muderously angry at each other. It says they were angry and argued over the killing of Rhaegar's children, and that Ned rode off to finish the campaign, nothing about Ned leading armies against Robert. We don't know if Robert knew where Ned was going. I still say it's very odd that Robert would kill Rhagar, take King's Landing, and not wonder what had become of Lyanna.

And I also find Glover's inclusion interesting. This is another mystery I hope we get addressed.

[MtnLion]

1 hour ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

I have read that page before, but it doesn't give any indication of Ned and Robert being muderously angry at each other. It says they were angry and argued over the killing of Rhaegar's children, and that Ned rode off to finish the campaign, nothing about Ned leading armies against Robert. We don't know if Robert knew where Ned was going. I still say it's very odd that Robert would kill Rhagar, take King's Landing, and not wonder what had become of Lyanna.

And I also find Glover's inclusion interesting. This is another mystery I hope we get addressed.

Robert.

Quote

Although he won the rebellion and killed Rhaegar, Robert's hatred of his slain foe had not diminished. When Tywin presented Robert with the mutilated bodies of Elia Martell, Rhaegar's wife, and their two young children, Robert was pleased they were dead. Eddard Stark, on the other hand, was outraged and disgusted by the act, calling it murder, and saying the young prince and princess were no more than babes. Robert's response was, “I see no babes, only dragonspawn.” 

Even Jon Arryn could not cool the rage and argument that followed between Robert and Eddard. Eddard left the Red Keep in a black rage to relieve Storm's End, where Stannis languished under siege. It took the death of Lyanna and their shared grief to reunite the pair in friendship. Robert was thereafter haunted by her memory and the desire for further vengeance against the slain Rhaegar.

What that page neglects to include is that before Elia and children are presented that Robert pardons Jaime for Kingslaying, breaking his most sacred vow.  Ned had insisted that Robert should send Jaime to the Wall, to take the Black, at the minimum.  Instead Robert took him as his own Kingsguard.  Adding the presentation of the royal family only added fuel to the fire burning in Ned. 

There is no question in my mind that Robert knows nothing about Ned's quest when he leaves King's Landing.  That is the way that Ned would want it, and he would sooner never see Robert again. 

[Nami]

Obviously Rhaegar didn't plan that far ahead that's why everything went to shit from the moment they eloped.

[MtnLion]

1 hour ago, Nami said:

Obviously Rhaegar didn't plan that far ahead that's why everything went to shit from the moment they eloped.

Cheap insurance.  Rhaegar planned on winning at the Trident, too.  "When I return things will change."  Rhaegar does know about Brandon and Rickard, at that point, so who else should he get in contact with?  Ned, but he is a general on the opposing force, Rhaegar needs a messenger and Ethan is a good one. 

[Slaysman]

I think the Kingsguard at the Tower was Rhaegar's contingency. Think about the three that were there:

Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning: The finest swordsman and Knight in the Realm, a man whose honor was above reproach.

Gerold Hightower, the White Bull and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: Another brilliant fighter and tactician

Oswell Whent (I do not recall if he had a cool nickname): Another brilliant swordsman, scholar and philosopher

These three were not chosen at random I would think. Each comes from an influential House. Each of them could say the sky was green and people would believe it due to their honor. I believe that the plan was if the worst happened these three would take Jon and his mother, if she lived, and protect and teach him until such time as he was ready to be presented to the world. I do agree he would not be in the 7 kingdoms as his protectors were far too well known.

It is just a theory, but everything I have read actually makes this plausible. The Mad King had perhaps the greatest Kingsguard assembled during his reign. Back then it actually meant something, filled with people who deserved to wear the white cloaks. Which is unlike what it is in the current events of Westeros.

Any thoughts?