How many men does John command now?

[Adam Shanks]

John entered the botb with between 2500 & 3000 wildlings and Northerners, he must have lost at least a thousand men in that battle, easy. With his new status and Manderly support,if he called in his banners how big of an army could he raise against the undead??

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

I'd say he has 1000-1500 men left from the Battle of the Bastards. House Glover must have at least a considerable amount of men that Jon and Sansa would approach them. Although it's interesting to think where these men came from. Most of them should have died at the Red Wedding and the garrison would've been killed by the Ironborn. I can't see more than 500 men though. Same goes for House Cerwyn. Enough that Sansa wishes to go speak the Lord Cerwyn but not enough to be a threat to the Boltons as the current Lord Cerwyn's father was flayed by Ramsay for not paying taxes. House Manderly is the interesting one. If we are to go by the books then the majority of their forces were actually kept home to fortify White Harbour. They have a city and hold the warmest, most populous lands in the North that are far away from the Wall. They also have a number of houses that follow them too. I'd say they have between 4000-6000 men (although in the book it could be up to 8000 since all those that were displaced during Ramsay's reign of terror went to White Harbour). So Jon has between 6000-8500 men Northerners.

 

[permaximum]

Around 4000 according to my calculations.

Boltons + Karstarks + Umbers = 6000

All others + wildlings = 6000

In the battle they lost around 2000-2500 and 500-1000 were left. With all the other houses combined that makes it 4000 at most. Compared to the Vale's 45k well-rested knights (if the wiki is correct) it's nothing.

 

 

[jonny__bravo]

It's hard to calculate how many Northerners and Wildlings Jon has at his disposal, the show is often ambiguous when it wants to be it terms of strengths of each house. Certainly he lost a fair clunk of his army during the battle for Winterfell, including all his heavy horse and probably more than half of the 2000 Wildlings. The infusion of johnny come lately's like the Glover's/Manderly's and Cerwyn's will help, although Robett Glover stated he needed Bolton help to take back Deepwood Motte from the Ironborn, so they may only have a few hundred men to contribute.

The real interesting and equally baffling element to Jon's proclamation as KiTN (if you ignore Sandra's claim) is the Lord/Knights of the Vale chiming in as well. If their support is legitimate they could bring at least another 20,000 men to the table (minus the small losses against the Bolton's) However are we seriously meant to believe that they have forsaken House Arryn, and their liege Lord Robert, for a Northern King, a bastard, and a deserter of the Night's Watch too boot?

Okay you could argue the river lords do something similar when the lend their support to Robb as KiTN and the Trident ,but the reasoning there was he was himself was half Tully and had aided them in lifting the siege at Riverrun.

What exactly do the Knights of the Vale owe Jon, they saved his army from total annihilation, if anything they (and Littlefinger) should have the dominant hand here to do as the please, which logically should be to advance the wishes of House Arryn and help Sandra exert her rightful rule over the North.

But the show runners wanted the KiTN scene mark 2, to create further false tension between Jon and Sandra and to get the Knights of the Vale to the North for the impending WW invasion. Unfortunately as with much of the show this season the sole objective is to align the pieces on the board for the home stretch, regardless of whether it makes a bit of sense.

[youshallnotpass]

Boltons forces where 6k strong, they are wiped out. 

Jon had 2500 men at the battle he defiently lost between 800-1000 men. 

In the books and population of the north they can muster full strength of 45k men.

Now back to the show Robb brought 18k men to march south only 6k men returned. We can consider that those 18k are now dead.

House Manderly is one of the strongest houses with the most fertile lands in the north. I would say they can muster 2-3k by themselves. With all the other houses I would say that they could possible gather 12-15k men that would add up to around 16-18k men with 1000 wildlings. 

Furthermore there are over 40 houses in the north and if each had 300 men that would make a total of 12k and dont forget that house like manderly have nearly triple that.

Also you must consider the north can nearly fit all other kingdoms in it the north has a high population but is scattered since the land is so big. Mustering the full force will take time.

Knights of the Vale would of brought 15-20k men north they would have left a sizeable force in the Vale maybe 10-15k. 

[xjlxking]

Ramsay said that he along with Umbers had the largest army so you can assume that the other half of the north is about 5k and he still has wildings left. I'd say he has 6-8k

[Hold_the_door]

Are we also to believe not a single Bolton fighter or more likely an Umber/Karstark at any point thought ... "sod this I give up & I'm only fighting for Bastard Bolton as I don't want to be flayed".  There must surely be survivors and survivors that would still feel loyal (& bend the knee) to Stark at that, even if the two Starks in winterfell are not legally Starks at the moment!

If all can be forgiven for houses that chose not to answer the call then soldiers that were following their liege lord (Ramsay) but survived and are now willing to bend the knee would surely have a place in the North now?

[xjlxking]

11 minutes ago, youshallnotpass said:

Boltons forces where 6k strong, they are wiped out. 

Jon had 2500 men at the battle he defiently lost between 800-1000 men. 

In the books and population of the north they can muster full strength of 45k men.

Now back to the show Robb brought 18k men to march south only 6k men returned. We can consider that those 18k are now dead.

House Manderly is one of the strongest houses with the most fertile lands in the north. I would say they can muster 2-3k by themselves. With all the other houses I would say that they could possible gather 12-15k men that would add up to around 16-18k men with 1000 wildlings. 

Furthermore there are over 40 houses in the north and if each had 300 men that would make a total of 12k and dont forget that house like manderly have nearly triple that.

Also you must consider the north can nearly fit all other kingdoms in it the north has a high population but is scattered since the land is so big. Mustering the full force will take time.

Knights of the Vale would of brought 15-20k men north they would have left a sizeable force in the Vale maybe 10-15k. 

Just want to say, that the north is bigger than the other parts of the kingdom combined but it is nowhere as close as populated.

the north raised nearly 20k army that they left a very small force behind. The Lannister without Tyrells had 2 armies the size of the north. 

[jonny__bravo]

It is certainly possible that some of the Bolton/Karstark/Umber forces yielded when they saw that the day was done. As with most things in feudal societies the smallfolk who make up these armies will take the lead from their lords, however we get no indication of who now controls either the Dreadfort/Last Hearth or Karhold after their lords have fallen.

 

[Adam Shanks]

In my Opinion I'm going to say John has:

 

1000 Wildlings 

500 Cerwyns 

3500 Mandelrys 

30 Mormonts

100 Hornwoods

300 Boltons (from the Dreadfort and botb)

200 Umbers (from the botb and there keep)

200 Karstarks (from the botb and there keep)

2000 from all the other smaller houses that didn't play a part in botb

 

So by my reckoning around 8000 Men at his command. Anyone think I've got any numbers wrong or missed anyone out?

 

[Bloodaxe]

He needs to start recruiting

[Charlie Hustle]

or he need to start training.....

[Fez]

Were the Knights of the Vale shouting KitN? It looked like at least Royce and a few guys around him weren't, and I'm not sure there were any others of them in that room.

If they were though, it does make a certain degree of sense. The Vale needs allies and where else would they turn, since it seems they don't know about Dany? Plus the Starks and Arryns have a long history together, which is why Robb wanted to ally with them during his war (and it would've happened too if not for Lysa, the lords of the Vale wanted to join up).

[DreadedNorwegian]

3 hours ago, permaximum said:

Around 4000 according to my calculations.

Boltons + Karstarks + Umbers = 6000

All others + wildlings = 6000

In the battle they lost around 2000-2500 and 500-1000 were left. With all the other houses combined that makes it 4000 at most. Compared to the Vale's 45k well-rested knights (if the wiki is correct) it's nothing.

 

 

My gues also, myabe even 5000. Rob marched south with 20 000 men, and most of those diead at the red wedding or other battles, so maybe a few thousand soldiers left up north + widling survivors and now the vale knights, so yeah, 4-5000 thousand would be my guess also,

[Daeron The Dragon]

Given that when the Karstark forces left Robb in Season 3 he says he lost almost half his army, I assume that atleast 3000 Karstark men went back North unharmed. Since after the Boltons, the Umbers, the Karstarks and the Manderlys are said to have the most men, probably the Umbers and the Manderlys too have comparable strength. Now Jon says the smaller houses are equal to these three bigger houses combined, so 3x3000=9000 men left from the smaller houses, not counting some 400 men that fought with Jon. Also Manderly forces are intact, which bring up the count to 12000 men.

Now Ramsay has about 6000 men before the BotB, out of which 5000 were Bolton men. That means only 1000 Karstark and Umber men fought with Ramsay out of their total strength of 3000 Karstarks and 3000 Umbers, leaving around 5000 of their men intact. So if Karstarks and Umbers support Jon now, the total for Northern Army should be in the range of 17000 men or atleast 15000, if we allow for losses suffered by Umbers and the Manderlys in the Wot5K

[mbuehner]

Also, lets not forget Rob marched off years ago, and every year that goes buy another batch of boys turn into men, so its not a fixed number. On top of that are the stragglers from the various armies, the recuperating wounded, etc.

I'd put the number about 8,000 as well, but i'd also buy if it were a bit more.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I was a little confused by the scene, there were Vale lords there as well, Bronze Yhon speaks at 1 point, and it appears they all were shouting the King in the North as well, so does Jon now control the Vale?

[OrcusOfUndeath]

If the North can muster 45-50 thousand men in times of peace, I'd say he could get 20k right now.

[Masha]

6 hours ago, youshallnotpass said:

Boltons forces where 6k strong, they are wiped out. 

Jon had 2500 men at the battle he defiently lost between 800-1000 men. 

In the books and population of the north they can muster full strength of 45k men.

Now back to the show Robb brought 18k men to march south only 6k men returned. We can consider that those 18k are now dead.

House Manderly is one of the strongest houses with the most fertile lands in the north. I would say they can muster 2-3k by themselves. With all the other houses I would say that they could possible gather 12-15k men that would add up to around 16-18k men with 1000 wildlings. 

Furthermore there are over 40 houses in the north and if each had 300 men that would make a total of 12k and dont forget that house like manderly have nearly triple that.

Also you must consider the north can nearly fit all other kingdoms in it the north has a high population but is scattered since the land is so big. Mustering the full force will take time.

Knights of the Vale would of brought 15-20k men north they would have left a sizeable force in the Vale maybe 10-15k. 

I think you are underestimated Manderly, who are considered to have one of the largest forces, certainly if Boltons can master 6K, I think Mandarly can get to at least 4-5k for sure. 

Also, all those armies - 45K, this is standing army of trained men, if WW invade, we are talking every able-bodied man out there - so probably double that amount.

[Eddard the Builder]

Some of this is based off Book Calcs + Estimation for the total military strength of the North.

At full strength the North can raise an absolute maximum of 45,000 soldiers.

Robb Stark left Winterfell with 12,000 which later surges to 18,000.  This force is later bolstered to 22,000 with House Frey joining them.

Early in Season 3 Tywin states Robb's army is at 20,000 strong, but this includes the Riverlands forces who in the book have some 11,000 troops under Edmure.  Later in the Season Tywin states that he's lost half his army.  I'd wager this is why:

Show!Oxcross has the Northerners inflicting 5:1 casualties rather than it being a complete obliteration.  10,000 Lannisters at Oxcross means 2,000 casualties + 2,000 casualties at the Green Fork + -4,000 troops from the Frey's + -2,300 from the Karstarks = 10,300 forces "lost", roughly half his army.

The 20,000 figure is with the Riverlands army.

Red Wedding = the annihilation of ~16,000 of that force.  Boltons return with ~4,000 men from the original Northern Host. 

So of 45,000, Northern casualties were ~12,000 Stark Loyalists (Taking into account of the original 18,000, 2,300 left with the Karstarks and ~4,000 were Bolton traitors)

Keep in mind that the Show!Umbers were likely roughly intact given that the Greatjon was tasked with lifting the siege of the Riverlands and was not attending the Red Wedding, I'd imagine he sent roughly 2,000 soldiers with that.

Leaving 33,000 men in the North. 5,000 Bolton, 3,000 Karstark, 2,500 Umber, 10,000 Manderly = 20,500 men>12,500 men.  Thus Ramsay's claim that the Umbers, Karstarks and Manderlies have more men than all the other houses combined.

Unknown Casualties at the First Battle of Winterfell

6,000 men wiped out at the Second Battle of Winterfell. 

Northern Army remaining- 27,000 high end, considering the Iron Islanders raids though I wouldn't be surprised if another 5,000+ were lost in the raids.  Leaving roughly 22,000 low end.

Jon can likely muster an army of 10-15,000 with the surviving Northerners, augmented by some 20,000 Knights of the Vale and you have 30-35,000.