Margaery and the Trial

[AryaSansa]

How did Margaery guess that Cersei was going to blow up the place (or that they were all in danger)?  Wouldn't it be more probable that Cersei not being there meant that Cersei tried to escape?

 

Also, why would the trial begin without the King?

 

Also, why did Lancel follow the kid, and how did the kid know he would follow?  Why did the kid only stab him once?  What if Lancel got there a minute sooner and blew out all the candles?

 

Does anyone else feel that the show is more about spectacle than what would logically happen?

 

[Survivor92]

Lancel following the kid was a necessary plot device to introduce us to the wildfire before the explosion, to build up suspense. Another option would've been less suspense and more of an immediate shock. Like Margaery suspects something, tries to walk out and BOOM.

Having said that, of course it doesn't make much sense. Lancel was on an important mission, why would he forsake that for some random kid? Why would the kid even lead him to the wildfire? And why wouldn't the kid make sure that Lancel couldn't reach the candle in time? Just stab him some more.

As for Margaery, I think it can be explained in a similar way. It was just to add drama. I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Sure, I can accept that she suspects that Cersei would try to escape or barricade herself in the Red Keep or whatever, but there's absolutely no reason for Margaery to believe that Cersei could be capable of blowing up (?) the Great Sept.

[Vuron]

No Cersei, no Tommen, and all her enemies in one confined space.  Also, she knew Cersei would never run.

[Nerevanin]

1) The trial beginning without the King was weird, considering that his brother-in-law was to be judged. If everyone was just waiting there, fine, but starting with Loras didn't make much sense without the King, who clearly was intending to attend and so he didn't excuse himself. Plot hole.

2) Margaery, unlike others, realized that there was "something wrong" because Cersei was way too late. Considering that Tommen wasn't there either, although he probably had told Margaery that he would come, she found it even more suspicious because Cersei wouldn't mean any harm to Tommen. I think that Margaery didn't know that Cersei would try to kill them but she merely thought that something happened or was happening. She then told the people to go away just to be sure. I think.

3) Lancel going after the kid didn't make much sense logically. Probably he had a feeling like Margaery did. The kid was probably to light or check to candles, when Lancel followed him, the boy panicked and stabbed him. He was probably too afraid to get so close to lancel to stab him again. He then waited to see that Lancel was "dead enough" and left. A small child like this wouldn't expect a dying man to crawl all the way to the candles. Lancel failing to blow the candles out was just a bad luck.

EDIT: another possibility is that the kid was supposed to lure Lancel away and kill him separately, just like they killed Pycelle separetely, like an extra punishment for betraying Cersei. If that was plan, they were quite lucky that it worked.

 

[UnGregor]

3 minutes ago, Vuron said:

No Cersei, no Tommen, and all her enemies in one confined space.  Also, she knew Cersei would never run.

This.

I don't think Margeary knew Cersi would blow up the Sept, but she was definitely up to something.  The major fact that Tommen wasn't there was the key part of Margaery figuring out that something was up.  The show even had her looking around multiple times during Loras' trial.  I took that as being the "hmmm, so-n-so isn't here, neither is so-n-so".

[The hairy bear]

I would agree that those things make little or no sense in the sequence that led to the destruction of the Sept. I would add some other more:

• Loras renouncing to Highgarden and joining the faith when everything indicated that he could have gotten out of it with a much lesser punishment.
• The High Septon sending only Lancel to summon Cersei.
• The entire army of the Faith being conveniently confined in the Great Sept. One would expect that a movement that was a threat to the crown had many hundreds of men at its service, and many of them would be guarding the entrances of the Sept or other strategic points of the city such as the gates.
• The trial of the king's mother for incest and king's brother in law for obscenity should be a huge event in King's Landing. There should be crowds of thousands outside the Great Sept waiting to get the news as soon as there's a sentence.
• The lack of response. The devout citizens of the Faith and the Tyrell army in the city should be crying for revenge. And in fact, it should be easy for them to overcome the meagre Lannister forces in the city specially while Jaime is not there. Realistically, Cersei should not have time for empty crownings because the crowd would be storming the Red Keep.
• Not exactly a plot hole and not restricted to this episode, but Tommen being brainwashed to the point of condemning her mother and now committing suicide is a character development that has not been properly dealt with at all. Very weak writing here.

[Tonberry]

4 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I would agree that those things make little or no sense in the sequence that led to the destruction of the Sept. I would add some other more:

• Loras renouncing to Highgarden and joining the faith when everything indicated that he could have gotten out of it with a much lesser punishment.
• The High Septon sending only Lancel to summon Cersei.
• The entire army of the Faith being conveniently confined in the Great Sept. One would expect that a movement that was a threat to the crown had many hundreds of men at its service, and many of them would be guarding the entrances of the Sept or other strategic points of the city such as the gates.
• The trial of the king's mother for incest and king's brother in law for obscenity should be a huge event in King's Landing. There should be crowds of thousands outside the Great Sept waiting to get the news as soon as there's a sentence.
• The lack of response. The devout citizens of the Faith and the Tyrell army in the city should be crying for revenge. And in fact, it should be easy for them to overcome the meagre Lannister forces in the city specially while Jaime is not there. Realistically, Cersei should not have time for empty crownings because the crowd would be storming the Red Keep.
• Not exactly a plot hole and not restricted to this episode, but Tommen being brainwashed to the point of condemning her mother and now committing suicide is a character development that has not been properly dealt with at all. Very weak writing here.

These are great points, especially about the King's Landing populace meekly giving Cersei the crown. The people hate her, and as we saw with the riot much earlier in the series, the people of KL are NOT meek. They are bold and brave, willing to go up against professional soldiers without weapons, belt out profanities against the nobility, and even harm the royal family.

To your last point, I do believe that we're to believe that Tommen is under Margaery's thumb. He was suspicious of the HS until Margaery encouraged his piety. I do believe her game was to gain HS's trust and then ask Tommen to renounce his support of the HS in a sneaky, clever way. I'm disappointed that we didn't see this come to fruition. But I do agree with the essence of your objection. Like many things in this show, it was rushed and given short shrift so that it really came off as a breach of character.

[John Suburbs]

What happened on the Blackwater and how it was done was no big secret either. I can see Margy putting it together in her mind, she's pretty sharp.

[Corvinus85]

12 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I would agree that those things make little or no sense in the sequence that led to the destruction of the Sept. I would add some other more:

• Loras renouncing to Highgarden and joining the faith when everything indicated that he could have gotten out of it with a much lesser punishment.
• The High Septon sending only Lancel to summon Cersei.
• The entire army of the Faith being conveniently confined in the Great Sept. One would expect that a movement that was a threat to the crown had many hundreds of men at its service, and many of them would be guarding the entrances of the Sept or other strategic points of the city such as the gates.
• The trial of the king's mother for incest and king's brother in law for obscenity should be a huge event in King's Landing. There should be crowds of thousands outside the Great Sept waiting to get the news as soon as there's a sentence.
• The lack of response. The devout citizens of the Faith and the Tyrell army in the city should be crying for revenge. And in fact, it should be easy for them to overcome the meagre Lannister forces in the city specially while Jaime is not there. Realistically, Cersei should not have time for empty crownings because the crowd would be storming the Red Keep.
• Not exactly a plot hole and not restricted to this episode, but Tommen being brainwashed to the point of condemning her mother and now committing suicide is a character development that has not been properly dealt with at all. Very weak writing here.

Let's not forget that the way wildfire works, everything but maybe the Red Keep should have been burned to the ground.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I don't think she had any idea what specifically was going to happen, but she just knew Cersei much better than the High Septon or other people.  She didn't run when Ned confronted her but instead just doubled down, when Margery was competing with her for power she was so desperate to hold onto it for like 2 more years until Tommen came of age that she created the High Septon and all their problems, when the faith tried to re-arrest her, her giant literally ripped a guys head off, and now she doesn't show up to her trial combined with Tommen not coming was all the info she needed.  Tommen intended to be there, that he wasn't there meant Cersei was keeping him, and even if she couldn't come up with something specific, the only reason Cersei would prevent Tommen from going would be to keep him safe.

[Prince Jon]

1.  I agree with other posters who point out that Margery knew something was up but not exactly what.

2.  The kid luring Lancel away was poorly written.  But maybe the kid was told to wait until everything started then go light the candles.  Lancel following him was not part of Cercei's plan.  

[Cron]

2 hours ago, AryaSansa said:

How did Margaery guess that Cersei was going to blow up the place (or that they were all in danger)?  Wouldn't it be more probable that Cersei not being there meant that Cersei tried to escape?

 

Also, why would the trial begin without the King?

 

Also, why did Lancel follow the kid, and how did the kid know he would follow?  Why did the kid only stab him once?  What if Lancel got there a minute sooner and blew out all the candles?

 

Does anyone else feel that the show is more about spectacle than what would logically happen?

 

I hear you, but I chalked Margaery's reaction up to intuition.

I don't think we are supposed to believe she knew exactly what Cersei was going to do, but she DID know that Cersei is incredibly dangerous, and she was right. The High Sparrow, on the other hand, was a fool.

[SevasTra82]

As great as the scene was and all...it's like every other scene in the show.  Riddled with plot holes and actions that make no sense (just look at the Frey Pie and Arya scene...it's also filled with "huh?" moments).

Logic does not exist on the show.  It's just something you have to learn to accept.

[BloodBrother]

9 minutes ago, Cron said:

I hear you, but I chalked Margaery's reaction up to intuition.

I don't think we are supposed to believe she knew exactly what Cersei was going to do, but she DID know that Cersei is incredibly dangerous, and she was right. The High Sparrow, on the other hand, was a fool.

The High Sparrow was indeed a fool in thinking that he had defeated Cersei by removing her rights to a Trial by Combat.  Glad he's gone along with his militants.

[Frimmel]

The bit with the kid is poorly shot/edited. It should have been more clear that the child was in places children don't go. Like perhaps in an earlier episode like the one where Qyburn answers Cersei's "inquiry." The kids might have been poking around down there and Lancel chases them off as they come out. Then at trial he sees that same kid run into the area he's been told to stay away from when caught? 

He also knows Cersei so his little mental alarm bells might have been going off as well. 

Lancel before going after the kid had ordered other of the faith soldiers to get some other men. So he's more or less going to be just standing there waiting for a bit and has time to have a look. It was also needed for suspense. Suspense is knowing what's going to happen but being powerless to prevent it. 

Margaery is just intuition. 

I certainly understand why it is being run down. We shouldn't have to fill this all in on an internet forum. At the same time it played quite well on initial viewing. It is only after the fact in my case that I started questioning. Different levels of "works for me" for folks with this stuff. 

[mbuehner]

4 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

The bit with the kid is poorly shot/edited. It should have been more clear that the child was in places children don't go. 

Bingo. Like- have the kid carrying around a torch on the bright sunny day. That would have been weird and drawn Lancel's attention.  Thats one of those unforced errors you would think 30 seconds of thought could have fixed on the page.

[Sigrid]

She outright explained her logic.  Cersei knew the consequences of missing the trial, yet she was not there.  That means Cersei had no intention of experiencing those consequences.  Combined with the fact that Tommen was not there was enough to tell Margaery something bad was going to go down.  I'm sure blow up the sept wasn't quite what she expected, but she was keen enough to try and get out.

[Zorral]

40 minutes ago, Sigrid said:

She outright explained her logic.  Cersei knew the consequences of missing the trial, yet she was not there.  That means Cersei had no intention of experiencing those consequences.  Combined with the fact that Tommen was not there was enough to tell Margaery something bad was going to go down.  I'm sure blow up the sept wasn't quite what she expected, but she was keen enough to try and get out.

Margaery is smart and observant.  W/Co Cersei's and Tommen's presence she knew something very bad was going down -- and she understands Cersie's character.   She obviously couldn't know exactly what would happen but knew it would be far better for her to be outside rather than in.  Cersie was without any interest in  the young queen's survival, and nobody understood that better than Margaery herself. 

[Dragonslack]

On 28/06/2016 at 5:02 PM, AryaSansa said:

How did Margaery guess that Cersei was going to blow up the place (or that they were all in danger)?  Wouldn't it be more probable that Cersei not being there meant that Cersei tried to escape?

 

Also, why would the trial begin without the King?

 

Also, why did Lancel follow the kid, and how did the kid know he would follow?  Why did the kid only stab him once?  What if Lancel got there a minute sooner and blew out all the candles?

 

Does anyone else feel that the show is more about spectacle than what would logically happen?

 

Only now you realised that, but now you know and they dont care.

[Ted Chang]

It was just a good plot device to crank up some tension and it worked well enough, allowing Pryce to do a deft piece of acting as he portrayed the HS's slow understanding of what was going down. This is, after all, entertainment and not a fantasy-reality show. Most of us knew full well that Lancel wouldn't get to the candle, for example, and most of us didn't care that he would be fashionably close to making it. That's what story telling is about. Some people just seem unable to actually enjoy stuff.