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Margaery and the Trial


AryaSansa

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3 hours ago, MoreOrLess said:

Has it been confirmed the intension was to "lure" Lancel down there? my view when watching it was that the child watching for the faith to send someone to get Cersei as the cue to head underground and light the candles. In that reading the child is just responding to Lancel trying to foil the plot and after he's stabbed him he has to leave to avoid being caught up in the blast.

This is definitely the most reasonable explanation for the motivations/explanation behind the child's actions, and it makes sense. Unfortunately, I thought immediately (even though I loved the scene), and still think, despite some valiant attempts at handwaving it away, that it really made no sense for Lancel to follow the child, with only the information we'd be presented thus far. If they had used a scene to give some pretext to it, it would have saved what, to me, was pretty much the only glaring or simply unjustifiable component of the scene. 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ2QP4hfs5s

House Rain, 2nd wealthiest/powerful Rebels on Lannisters =  dead/extinct

House Tyrell, 2nd wealthiest now/powerful Rebels on Lannsiters = Extinct (after Ollena dies)

In the clip Cersie recounts Rains of Castemere to Margaery in season 3...Like all you have said, Tommen wasn't there, Cersie wasn't there...Margaery isnt a fool, she connected the dots...she played the game well and could have won if the circumstances that led to her giving her power to the Sparrow didnt kill her in the end....Like the Rains the Lannisters came out ontop, Starks know from experience, if Bran doesnt have a child then House Stark is extinct due to Rebelling against the Lannisters....

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On June 28, 2016 at 1:48 PM, The hairy bear said:

I would agree that those things make little or no sense in the sequence that led to the destruction of the Sept. I would add some other more:

  • Loras renouncing to Highgarden and joining the faith when everything indicated that he could have gotten out of it with a much lesser punishment.
  • The High Septon sending only Lancel to summon Cersei.
  • The entire army of the Faith being conveniently confined in the Great Sept. One would expect that a movement that was a threat to the crown had many hundreds of men at its service, and many of them would be guarding the entrances of the Sept or other strategic points of the city such as the gates.
  • The trial of the king's mother for incest and king's brother in law for obscenity should be a huge event in King's Landing. There should be crowds of thousands outside the Great Sept waiting to get the news as soon as there's a sentence.
  • The lack of response. The devout citizens of the Faith and the Tyrell army in the city should be crying for revenge. And in fact, it should be easy for them to overcome the meagre Lannister forces in the city specially while Jaime is not there. Realistically, Cersei should not have time for empty crownings because the crowd would be storming the Red Keep.
  • Not exactly a plot hole and not restricted to this episode, but Tommen being brainwashed to the point of condemning her mother and now committing suicide is a character development that has not been properly dealt with at all. Very weak writing here.

I disagree with most of this. There was no suggestion I saw that Loras would have gotten off easily. I have no issue with what he chose.

The High Sept sent more than just Lancel, but it was Lancel's idea to split up. That means there are surviving soldiers or septims or whatever theyre called.

No one said the entire army of the faith was inside the Sept. You're making assumptions.

I agree there should have been a large crowd outside the Sept.

GeJust because we haven't seen the city's reaction to the explosion does not mean there wasn't one. The show ended basically on the same day. Youre making assumptions again. Take a breath and give everyone a night to react. Also, the Lannister army is huge, and was mostly absent from the trial. Cercei killed off the nobles, the leaders of the faith, and inherited an army.

tommen's character was interesting. Cercei's biggest mistake imo was leaving him alone instead of going to his room and saying 'look what mommy did for you'. She obviously didnt want him to die, and now she's fucked herself out of a stash of wildfire which was the only real defense King's Landing seems to have against a large navy.

as an aside, that part bothers me. How the FUCK did Stannis ever get so close to the shore? How does King's Landing not have a great naval force protecting the 'Landing'?

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45 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

This is definitely the most reasonable explanation for the motivations/explanation behind the child's actions, and it makes sense. Unfortunately, I thought immediately (even though I loved the scene), and still think, despite some valiant attempts at handwaving it away, that it really made no sense for Lancel to follow the child, with only the information we'd be presented thus far. If they had used a scene to give some pretext to it, it would have saved what, to me, was pretty much the only glaring or simply unjustifiable component of the scene. 

Right. Just one mention of the way the faith knows who the little birds in the city are. I suppose we're supoosed to infer that of course he knows who the birds are, having grown up in the royal family and now part of the faith. I think it's cool tho, that we never really saw who 'the little birds' were until now. 

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7 hours ago, The_Iron_Bastard said:

tommen's character was interesting. Cercei's biggest mistake imo was leaving him alone instead of going to his room and saying 'look what mommy did for you'. She obviously didnt want him to die, and now she's fucked herself out of a stash of wildfire which was the only real defense King's Landing seems to have against a large navy.

as an aside, that part bothers me. How the FUCK did Stannis ever get so close to the shore? How does King's Landing not have a great naval force protecting the 'Landing'?

Stannis was Master of Fleets under Robert. Much of the Royal Fleet was, IIRC, based out of Dragonstone, and wound up with Stannis.

In the books, the Lannister replacement for Master of Fleets also steals a lot of the ships they had just built to go and be a pirate king or something.

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8 hours ago, The_Iron_Bastard said:

as an aside, that part bothers me. How the FUCK did Stannis ever get so close to the shore? How does King's Landing not have a great naval force protecting the 'Landing'?

Because they were being lured into a wildfire trap? Some Lannister ships were there as decoys, but most were safely away from the green explody stuff.

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On 6/28/2016 at 6:02 PM, AryaSansa said:

How did Margaery guess that Cersei was going to blow up the place (or that they were all in danger)?  Wouldn't it be more probable that Cersei not being there meant that Cersei tried to escape?

 

Also, why would the trial begin without the King?

 

Also, why did Lancel follow the kid, and how did the kid know he would follow?  Why did the kid only stab him once?  What if Lancel got there a minute sooner and blew out all the candles?

 

Does anyone else feel that the show is more about spectacle than what would logically happen?

 

Also, why would you force people who aren't even witnesses or have anything to do with the trial to stay inside? How are all these nobles in there without bodyguards? Etc

Spectacle? Every single scene in the episode was pure, shameless, stupid, nonsensical fan service.

Just what the people want.

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On 28/06/2016 at 6:57 PM, Tonberry said:

These are great points, especially about the King's Landing populace meekly giving Cersei the crown. The people hate her, and as we saw with the riot much earlier in the series, the people of KL are NOT meek. They are bold and brave, willing to go up against professional soldiers without weapons, belt out profanities against the nobility, and even harm the royal family.

 

I think we'll see a far bigger backlash next season. There just wasn't really the time to bring the city's reaction into it this episode. And I think Jaime understanding the situation and failure to get Cersei to see sense will be the end of them.

 

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13 hours ago, IamMe90 said:

This is definitely the most reasonable explanation for the motivations/explanation behind the child's actions, and it makes sense. Unfortunately, I thought immediately (even though I loved the scene), and still think, despite some valiant attempts at handwaving it away, that it really made no sense for Lancel to follow the child, with only the information we'd be presented thus far. If they had used a scene to give some pretext to it, it would have saved what, to me, was pretty much the only glaring or simply unjustifiable component of the scene. 

I think it made sense in that he's clearly seen someone behaving in a very suspect fashion during a very important event, for him to view the child as a potential spy and then look to track them down I think makes sense and helps paint the faith generally as not so easily fooled.

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52 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said:

I think it made sense in that he's clearly seen someone behaving in a very suspect fashion during a very important event, for him to view the child as a potential spy and then look to track them down I think makes sense and helps paint the faith generally as not so easily fooled.

When watching I was convinced that the boy was a spy sent to report on Lancels/the Faiths moves to Qyburn/Cersei and I still had a very WTF reaction to Lancel following him. Whatever suspicious activity the kid might have been engaging in, securing Cersei was clearly more important? At best he should have sent a crony.

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On 6/28/2016 at 9:02 AM, AryaSansa said:

How did Margaery guess that Cersei was going to blow up the place (or that they were all in danger)?  Wouldn't it be more probable that Cersei not being there meant that Cersei tried to escape?

 

Also, why would the trial begin without the King?

 

Also, why did Lancel follow the kid, and how did the kid know he would follow?  Why did the kid only stab him once?  What if Lancel got there a minute sooner and blew out all the candles?

 

Does anyone else feel that the show is more about spectacle than what would logically happen?

 

Margaery knows cersei, she knows she would rather die then go into exile. 

Plus the fact that tommen wasn't there. He wouldn't run off with his mother, although she could force him to come, I guess. Cersei wanted to keep tommen alive more than anything. Him being absent was a huge red flag. 

I also think she was being extra cautious. She may have thought about cersei running away, but she wanted to make certain all the people were safe.

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19 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

When watching I was convinced that the boy was a spy sent to report on Lancels/the Faiths moves to Qyburn/Cersei and I still had a very WTF reaction to Lancel following him. Whatever suspicious activity the kid might have been engaging in, securing Cersei was clearly more important? At best he should have sent a crony.

The rest of the sparrows carry on to get Cersei don't they? you could argue that if we assume Lancel is the highest ranking member of that group its not so logical for him personally to go after the spy but the show never really makes much of an issue of any rank below the High Sparrow and Septons/Septia so I'm prepared to let a little dramatic contrivance pass to have a known character discover the wild fire.

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Tommen was probably going to go with Cersei, so he was gonna show up whenever she did. And then she sent the Mountain to confine him to his room, so obviously wasn't going anywhere. 

Lancel didnt "forsake his mission" to chase the kid. You can very clearly see other Sparrows with him as he leaves, and he tells them to "get the others" before he goes after the kid. He sent a bunch of other people to do it, while he investigated something else. No really breach of logic there. 

As for Margaery, she didn't know specifically that Cersei was gonna blow the place up with wildfire. All she knew was that it was sketchy that Cersei and Tommen weren't there, and then even more sketchy when the guys sent to retrieve her didn't come back. And her gut feeling was that something was wrong. She didn't know what exactly was gonna happen, but she, along with the viewers, could tell something bad was about to go down. 

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On 7/2/2016 at 10:23 AM, Facebookless Man said:

Also, why would you force people who aren't even witnesses or have anything to do with the trial to stay inside? How are all these nobles in there without bodyguards? Etc

Spectacle? Every single scene in the episode was pure, shameless, stupid, nonsensical fan service.

Just what the people want.

sad but true. it didn't have a strong sense of poetic justice or irony at all.

they needed the story to fast forward and cut some fat and were willing to make some mechanical errors and sacrifice some quality characters and story along the way. 

How many 'houses' perished in the blast whose families would just agree to crown Cersei. 

Politically it makes little sense. 

 

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What also makes no sense is the HS sending Lancel to fetch Cersei.

Not long ago, Cersei refused his summons by "choosing violence" and having Gregor demonstrate said violence by murdering one of the sparrows.

So yeah, of all his men, he sends the key witness of the upcoming trial to face the accused and her personal zombie killing machine in the Red Keep. Smart move.

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1 hour ago, Rhollo said:

What also makes no sense is the HS sending Lancel to fetch Cersei.

Not long ago, Cersei refused his summons by "choosing violence" and having Gregor demonstrate said violence by murdering one of the sparrows.

So yeah, of all his men, he sends the key witness of the upcoming trial to face the accused and her personal zombie killing machine in the Red Keep. Smart move.

good catch :thumbsup: maybe that time he was thinking to ask her more kindly to go with him :D

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On 6/28/2016 at 11:02 AM, AryaSansa said:

How did Margaery guess that Cersei was going to blow up the place (or that they were all in danger)?  Wouldn't it be more probable that Cersei not being there meant that Cersei tried to escape?

 

Also, why would the trial begin without the King?

 

Also, why did Lancel follow the kid, and how did the kid know he would follow?  Why did the kid only stab him once?  What if Lancel got there a minute sooner and blew out all the candles?

 

Does anyone else feel that the show is more about spectacle than what would logically happen?

 

First point, yes definitely the logical conclusion would be she is trying to escape, not blow everyone up.

Second point, wasn't that just Loras confession.  The trial didn't really begin?

 

Last two.  Yes and yes.  Of course it is (about spectacle).  The kid may only stab him once because he is much smaller and just trying to escape.  But Lancel crawling up to the candle and only needing 1/16 of a second more to prevent the explosion is ridiculous.

 

I would also add that it seemed pretty stupid that the High Sparrow would not allow anyone to leave.  I am guessing that was the only way to accomplish their  goal, show that Margaery is smart, yet blow everyone up.

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22 hours ago, dsug said:

As for Margaery, she didn't know specifically that Cersei was gonna blow the place up with wildfire. All she knew was that it was sketchy that Cersei and Tommen weren't there, and then even more sketchy when the guys sent to retrieve her didn't come back. And her gut feeling was that something was wrong. She didn't know what exactly was gonna happen, but she, along with the viewers, could tell something bad was about to go down. 

 

Maybe I need to watch it again but it didn't seem like they were gone that long by the time the sept was blown to smithereens.  The Red Keep and sept are not that close it was bound to take some time to go ferret Cersei out and come back...especially if she had ran away.

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1. Correct me if I'm wrong (and that's possible): I thought that because it was a Trial by the Faith, the presence of the King doesn't matter as the 7 septons are the only judges. Therefore, it seems plausible that Tommen wouldn't be there, because he would find it too hard to watch the trials of his brother in law and of his mother. 

His absence is weird but understandable, it just becomes obvious to Marg that something is up when she realizes both Cersei and Tommen are missing from the Sept. 

ETA: and I'm not surprised the High Sparrow started the trial in Tommen's absence. Because the HS had become arrogant, in my opinion. He had made it clear that the regal power was nothing but an instrument to the faith. 

2. I also agree: I don't think Cersei knew what was up. From Natalie Dormer's interview, it just seems she realized something was up and understood the High Sparrow had underestimated Cersei and hadn't made sure she couldn't plot anything. And I assume Margaery was too absorbed by her brother's trial to realize they were in danger before.

3. As for Lancel: it was indeed a way to show us what was going on below the Sept. Even if Lancel had reached one of the candles on time, the fire would still have been ignited by one of the other candles. But indeed, this scene was just to add more suspense and to show us the mechanics of the big Sept blow up :)

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On 6/28/2016 at 0:02 PM, AryaSansa said:

How did Margaery guess that Cersei was going to blow up the place (or that they were all in danger)?  Wouldn't it be more probable that Cersei not being there meant that Cersei tried to escape?

She didn't guess Cercei was going to blow the place up. She is well aware of Cercei's cunning and began to sense a trap. All the people the Queen Mother hates in one place.

Also, why would the trial begin without the King?

Because the faith is not beholden to the King. The crown knew exactly when the trial was to begin and I'm sure they were also aware of the faith's ability to render judgement in absentia.

 

Also, why did Lancel follow the kid, and how did the kid know he would follow?  Why did the kid only stab him once?  What if Lancel got there a minute sooner and blew out all the candles?

Because Lancel was already suspicious of the Queen Mother and King Tommen not arriving, and the Faith has has heard rumors about the dark workings as well as spies in the royal court reporting on how Qyburn and his little birds do Cercei's bidding. If you were paying attention, you'd have heard Lancel call out in the tunnel, "The longer you hide, the worse it is going to be for you." He obviously wasn't talking to the little boy. He thought Cercei was hiding somewhere nearby?

Does anyone else feel that the show is more about spectacle than what would logically happen?

I would say that most level-headed viewers who read the books realize that D&D are TV writers who no longer have the benefit of source material and are doing the best they can without any book scenes or dialogue to draw from. I would also expect that readers who have been waiting decades for the saga to be completed, are grateful that at least someone is attempting to wrap things up while the author galavants around to award ceremonies, edits books, has parties at his movie theater and does just about everything else other than finish his goddamn story.
Enjoy the show, brother, cause winter isn't coming.

 

 

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