Margaery and the Trial

[Rhollo]

On 28.6.2016 at 6:15 PM, Survivor92 said:

Lancel following the kid was a necessary plot device to introduce us to the wildfire before the explosion, to build up suspense. Another option would've been less suspense and more of an immediate shock. Like Margaery suspects something, tries to walk out and BOOM.

I don't think it was necessary. Unlike the books, the show does not need a POV to establish things. That scene could have been done without Lancel.

Just imagine something like this: 

The HS sends Lancel to get Cersei.

Next: A closeup of a candle in a shaky hand while it is used to light another candle. The shot zooms out to slowly reveal more and more of the bigger picture. The candle is standing in a puddle of green liquid, the puddle is leaking out of a barrel, the candle is held by the little boy. He gets up to ignite another candle a few staps away. Oh and another one was already lit, so we see three candles/puddles/barrels now. The boy stands up, turns around and runs away through a corridor. we follow him and see that corridor lined with dozens leaking barrels. The boy goes around a few corners, steps out onto the street, takes a look around, sees Lancel leaving the sept, they exchange quick look and the boy takes off into some side street.

Then we see scenes alternating a few times between Marg and the HS arguing in the Sept and Cersei overlooking the city a few times until BOOM.

[Jon and Dany Targaryen]

On 6/28/2016 at 10:48 AM, The hairy bear said:

I would agree that those things make little or no sense in the sequence that led to the destruction of the Sept. I would add some other more:

• Loras renouncing to Highgarden and joining the faith when everything indicated that he could have gotten out of it with a much lesser punishment.

 

Further promoting the matriarchal theme that seems to be present this season. He was completely broken. We get closure to  the character and a feeling of sympathy to his ultimate demise. We at the same time rejoice that the "Faith" is exterminated. We also see Cersei is becoming no more different than the Mad King! They seem to put some of the men in very weak, vulnerable lights whereas the women portrayed as stronger. Theon, Loras, Tommen. Many of the "strong" men so far were mad men. The Starks on the other hand are their own breed.

[Xarkar]

On 6/28/2016 at 1:57 PM, Tonberry said:

These are great points, especially about the King's Landing populace meekly giving Cersei the crown. The people hate her, and as we saw with the riot much earlier in the series, the people of KL are NOT meek. They are bold and brave, willing to go up against professional soldiers without weapons, belt out profanities against the nobility, and even harm the royal family.

To your last point, I do believe that we're to believe that Tommen is under Margaery's thumb. He was suspicious of the HS until Margaery encouraged his piety. I do believe her game was to gain HS's trust and then ask Tommen to renounce his support of the HS in a sneaky, clever way. I'm disappointed that we didn't see this come to fruition. But I do agree with the essence of your objection. Like many things in this show, it was rushed and given short shrift so that it really came off as a breach of character.

They may not support her with the crown, they likely wont to be honest, but what choice do they have right now?

The Kings Guard is loyal to her, the faith is gone, the tyrell army is gone (with Olenna) so what is left?  Lannister army and commoners.

 

 

 

[Bee Diddie]

On 6/28/2016 at 2:02 PM, Corvinus said:

Let's not forget that the way wildfire works, everything but maybe the Red Keep should have been burned to the ground.

Of course, that's if you ignore the fact that Cercei had the pyromancers who dedicated their entire lives to working with and studying "the substance" who had the ability to direct and contain the wildfire, as we saw  in season 2 as well aswell as the mention of their guild being present in the chapter where she burns the tower of the hand.

[Bee Diddie]

On 6/28/2016 at 1:57 PM, Tonberry said:

These are great points

Not particularly, as I explain in my post here

 

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, Bee Diddie said:

Of course, that's if you ignore the fact that Cercei had the pyromancers who dedicated their entire lives to working with and studying "the substance" who had the ability to direct and contain the wildfire, as we saw  in season 2 as well aswell as the mention of their guild being present in the chapter where she burns the tower of the hand.

I don't recall seeing any pyromancers in the scene, or beforehand this season, so it's unclear if Cersei used any of them to have a "controlled" burning. It seems that she merely used the wildfire cache that had already been stored down there when Aerys commanded it, which as you recall was a command to burn the whole city. And while the tower of the hand was a controlled burning, this one didn't look so, the way wildfire spread out of the sept. There is that moment when a bell hits some people, and then the whole street is engulfed in wildfire, yet no other buildings seemed to have caught fire afterwards.

[Bee Diddie]

7 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I don't recall seeing any pyromancers in the scene, or beforehand this season, so it's unclear if Cersei used any of them to have a "controlled" burning. It seems that she merely used the wildfire cache that had already been stored down there when Aerys commanded it, which as you recall was a command to burn the whole city. And while the tower of the hand was a controlled burning, this one didn't look so, the way wildfire spread out of the sept. There is that moment when a bell hits some people, and then the whole street is engulfed in wildfire, yet no other buildings seemed to have caught fire afterwards.

Nevertheless, we can assume that the pyromancers were responsible for the maintenance, storage and transportation of every drop of wildfire in KL, undoubtedly they inspected  and took inventory of Aerys stash routinely. If you recall in season 2 that the pyromancer says his men often find rotting old wildfire containers and replace them because just as the men of the night's watch serve at the wall, wildfire is what their order exists to do. We know from the aftermath of Tommens wedding that the burning of wildfire can be somewhat controlled (Tower of the Hand)  and and as witnessed on the ramparts of KL when tyrion signals bronn to loose the flaming arrow, where the fire is, a pyromancer is close by.
Or are you one of those  guys who thinks that  once you shut the fridge door, everything stored inside it ceases to exist?

 

[FingerlittleGood]

The entire Lancel scene was nothing more to add drama to the story. He follows the kid down to show the viewers the wildfire and the intense moment he crawls to the candles to blow them out. Don't try to over think the scene it was just added because the writers are starting to think every scene has to have a twist or dramatic ending to satisfy the viewers. Kind of like in the movies when the hero has 1 second left on the bomb before he cuts the right wire. Nothing more than a shock factor. 

[Bee Diddie]

On 6/28/2016 at 1:48 PM, The hairy bear said:

I would agree that those things make little or no sense in the sequence that led to the destruction of the Sept. I would add some other more:

• Loras renouncing to Highgarden and joining the faith when everything indicated that he could have gotten out of it with a much lesser punishment.

         Please explain what indicated Loras would receive a lesser punishment.

• The High Septon sending only Lancel to summon Cersei.
   
• Cercei was not required to attend her trial. There was no need to go in force.

 

• The entire army of the Faith being conveniently confined in the Great Sept. One would expect that a movement that was a threat to the crown had many hundreds of men at its service, and many of them would be guarding the entrances of the Sept or other strategic points of the city such as the gates.

          Who said the entire army was in the sept? After a king is defeated the army usually scatters.

         

• The trial of the king's mother for incest and king's brother in law for obscenity should be a huge event in King's Landing. There should be crowds of thousands outside the Great Sept waiting to get the news as soon as there's a sentence.

          point conceded, but that's a pretty minor oversight

• The lack of response. The devout citizens of the Faith and the Tyrell army in the city should be crying for revenge. And in fact, it should be easy for them to overcome the meagre Lannister forces in the city specially while Jaime is not there. Realistically, Cersei should not have time for empty crownings because the crowd would be storming the Red Keep.

         Who knows how much wildfire Cercei has under the streets of KL? Tyrells and other Lords would not risk having their hosts incinerated while marching into the city I'd imagine.

• Not exactly a plot hole and not restricted to this episode, but Tommen being brainwashed to the point of condemning her mother and now committing suicide is a character development that has not been properly dealt with at all. Very weak writing here.

          I disagree. Margaery was Tommens first love, and he's been brow beaten by his mother his whole life.
          Suicide is not such an outlandish reaction.

 

[The hairy bear]

11 hours ago, Bee Diddie said:

Please explain what indicated Loras would receive a lesser punishment.

Well, the only reference that we have is Cersei's punishment for adultery. For that she was paraded naked in the streets. Humiliating, sure, but on an entirely different level than losing lands and titles.

11 hours ago, Bee Diddie said:

Cercei was not required to attend her trial. There was no need to go in force.

Margaery deduces that Cersei is up to something huge because there were grave "consequences to her absence". The High Septon order to Lancel is also clear in this respect: "go to the Red Keep and show her the way". Therefore, her attendance to the trials was mandatory, and there was need to go in force.

11 hours ago, Bee Diddie said:

Who said the entire army was in the sept? After a king is defeated the army usually scatters.

Not when they are devotees with a nearly fanatic conviction instead of recruits or mercenaries. Not when their leader has been treacherously killed and the greatest sanctuary of their Faith demolished. Not when their opponents are in the same city with no known significant forces.

11 hours ago, Bee Diddie said:

  Who knows how much wildfire Cercei has under the streets of KL? Tyrells and other Lords would not risk having their hosts incinerated while marching into the city I'd imagine.

I disagree. Of course there's a risk, but there's also a huge potential benefit. Any Tyrell lieutenant who managed to seize the Red Keep and kill Cersei would have the eternal gratitude of Olenna Tyrell. He would have plenty or riches, good marriages and depending on his birth and how the Tyrell succession works in the show he could have a chance at inheriting the Tyrell lands.

As for the citizens of King's Landing, so far we have been shown that they didn't like Cersei much, and that they loved the Tyrells, king Tommen and the Faith instead. Of course many citizens would be afraid, but in a city of millions there would be at least thousand who'd went to the gates of the Red Keep in rage. We are talking about the same city who rioted against Joffrey for much less.

11 hours ago, Bee Diddie said:

Margaery was Tommens first love, and he's been brow beaten by his mother his whole life.
  Suicide is not such an outlandish reaction.

It is not. I am not saying that Tommen's suicide is something that can't reasonably happen. I just say that the transition from Cersei's pet to a suicidal boy could have been better written. I think we could all agree that Tommen as a character has serious flaws, and the writers do not seem to decide whether they are writing for a 10 year old or an adult person.

[Bee Diddie]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Well, the only reference that we have is Cersei's punishment for adultery. For that she was paraded naked in the streets. Humiliating, sure, but on an entirely different level than losing lands and titles.

It did appear that Margaery was playing the role of the penitent sinner while assuring the queen of thorns that she was still a Tyrell when she snuck her that drawing of the rose and telling her brother that they want to tear him down and he needs to be strong. The High Sparrow is a sly fox though and I don't think he was convinced by Margaerys performance.
I think she may have believed she reached a deal with the HS because of her reaction when his forehead is carved. She says "You mutilated him, you gave me your word" or something like that.
I think Margaery was saying everything she thought the HS wanted to hear and that if she played her cards right she could secure her and her brothers freedom, and then undo any psychological damage Loras suffered.
 

Margaery deduces that Cersei is up to something huge because there were grave "consequences to her absence". The High Septon order to Lancel is also clear in this respect: "go to the Red Keep and show her the way". Therefore, her attendance to the trials was mandatory, and there was need to go in force.

But thats not what he says to Margaery just a few seconds earlier. "The trial will begin regardless, she cannot escape the god's judgement." From that I take it that Cercei's attendance was not strictly mandatory.

Not when they are devotees with a nearly fanatic conviction instead of recruits or mercenaries. Not when their leader has been treacherously killed and the greatest sanctuary of their Faith demolished. Not when their opponents are in the same city with no known significant forces.
The Sept of Baelor was just swallowed in green Hellfire. Their leader incinerated. That is quite the test of faith, I don't think all of the faith would have passed.

I disagree. Of course there's a risk, but there's also a huge potential benefit. Any Tyrell lieutenant who managed to seize the Red Keep and kill Cersei would have the eternal gratitude of Olenna Tyrell. He would have plenty or riches, good marriages and depending on his birth and how the Tyrell succession works in the show he could have a chance at inheriting the Tyrell lands.

As for the citizens of King's Landing, so far we have been shown that they didn't like Cersei much, and that they loved the Tyrells, king Tommen and the Faith instead. Of course many citizens would be afraid, but in a city of millions there would be at least thousand who'd went to the gates of the Red Keep in rage. We are talking about the same city who rioted against Joffrey for much less.

It is not. I am not saying that Tommen's suicide is something that can't reasonably happen. I just say that the transition from Cersei's pet to a suicidal boy could have been better written. I think we could all agree that Tommen as a character has serious flaws, and the writers do not seem to decide whether they are writing for a 10 year old or an adult person.

That's the problem with D&D not having any source material. It seems to me GRRM gave them the broad strokes of the rest of the series in the (lol) unlikely event the show caught up and surpassed his novels.
This is the reason some fans are complaining that the show is now just a collection of brutal or shocking scenes and people are teleporting here and there and everywhere.

 

[Cron]

On 6/28/2016 at 0:02 PM, AryaSansa said:

How did Margaery guess that Cersei was going to blow up the place (or that they were all in danger)?  Wouldn't it be more probable that Cersei not being there meant that Cersei tried to escape?

 

Also, why would the trial begin without the King?

 

Also, why did Lancel follow the kid, and how did the kid know he would follow?  Why did the kid only stab him once?  What if Lancel got there a minute sooner and blew out all the candles?

 

Does anyone else feel that the show is more about spectacle than what would logically happen?

 

Well, sure, I think the show sometimes IS more concerned with spectacle than what would logically happen.

I'd be happy to call the issues you raise "Exhibit A," and the Frey Pie stuff "Exhibit B." (I consider the Frey Pie stuff to be highly unrealistic, to say the least.  It seems highly implausible to me that Arya would take all that time, and accept all that risk of being caught and having her "mission" fail, all in "enemy territory," no less, just for the momentary gratification of setting that pie before Walder.  Not worth the time, not worth the effort, and not worth the ENORMOUS risk, in my opinion.)

Exhibit C could be the Battle of the Bastards (logically, Jon would have been killed about 20 different times, with the first time just a few seconds into the battle, facing down a full cavalry charge on foot, but hey, seeing him being so brave in the face of danger over and over and living to tell the tale made quite a spectacle.  Jon surviving that cavalry charge is off the charts unrealistic.  He would have been trampled to death even if he was facing down nothing more than stampeding CATTLE trying to AVOID him, much less hundreds of war horses with men on their backs and swords in their hands TRYING to kill him.  Jon would have a better chance of running a mile in a downpour without getting wet cuz he dodged every raindrop)

We could probably both go on and on with more examples.

(Having said all that, I'm a huge fan of both GOT and ASOIAF, of course.)

[Runaway Penguin]

Starting trial in absentia does not mean participation is not mandatory without dire consequences. One of the consequences would be for example the harshest possible sentence according to the Seven. 

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

On 7/1/2016 at 9:51 PM, OceanRunner said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ2QP4hfs5s

House Rain, 2nd wealthiest/powerful Rebels on Lannisters =  dead/extinct

House Tyrell, 2nd wealthiest now/powerful Rebels on Lannsiters = Extinct (after Ollena dies)

In the clip Cersie recounts Rains of Castemere to Margaery in season 3...Like all you have said, Tommen wasn't there, Cersie wasn't there...Margaery isnt a fool, she connected the dots...she played the game well and could have won if the circumstances that led to her giving her power to the Sparrow didnt kill her in the end....Like the Rains the Lannisters came out ontop, Starks know from experience, if Bran doesnt have a child then House Stark is extinct due to Rebelling against the Lannisters....

Olenna is technically a Redwyne, not a Tyrell, which is why her having any say in who the Reach backs kind of pissed me off. Don't get me wrong Olenna is a fantastic character and Diana Riggs kills it as her (Watching Olenna tear down the Sand Snakes was good shit, but that whole meeting was illogical as hell) They couldn't of just introduced a Tyrell cousin last season or this season that could become the new head of House Tyrell? Hell they could of finally introduced Willas or Garlan but as cousins or something and made one of them the new head of House Tyrell. And saying there are no Tyrells left in the show would be inconsistent as Tyrell cousins have been mentioned earlier in the series. Plus House Lannister and Tyrell are two of the largest houses in the south. They should have plenty of members left.