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What's the basis for Cersei's claim to the Iron Throne?


shmewdog

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She has none and it's even more baffling considering she couldn't have taken it by force as she doesn't have any, being in command of nothing more than some kids and perhaps the Lannister house guard, none of which are enough to even truly secure the city. So I guess it doesn't really matter because she's basically just the Queen of the Red Keep and if you really squint, also KL and the Westerlands. Pretty much every other region is in open rebellion at this point.

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Cersei sat on the throne because it looked cool, end of story.

No point in theorizing or legitimizing the plot when the script has repeatedly shown us that none of this matters. Its pointless, because the writers will just do whatever they think is the most fanservice, looks cool, or just supports whichever character they like at the moment. Without direct evidence from the show, no theory has any merit, and even then the show can just up and forget that plot, ignore it, or retcon it.

Cersei has no enemies because all the named characters are dead and extras aren't paid to speak. (RIP Rickon).

 

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I believe I read somewhere that that Cersei's great-great-great...... (there were many more greats) grandmother was a Baratheon. And since Westeros would obviously try to keep the crown with the Baratheon line, then Cersei is the next one. Especially since Robert and his entire family are dead. The Lannister's Baratheon ancestor is the only living line left. 

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On 1.07.2016 at 1:46 PM, Kusanagi said:

I don't think you understand what you said.

Again and again:

1) Cersei has no royal blood.

2) Cersei has no legal claim to the throne.

3) Cersei can be regent even without legal claim.

4) Conquest means taking the sovereignty or making them submit by battle.

5) Cersei can conduct a coup, but this is different from a legal claim and conquest.

6) Cersei can conduct a coup, so show us the process and consequences, so we don't need to have this conversation.

Is that clear?

1) That is why she is an usurper.

2) This is what her opponents would say, while she might say otherwise. Which makes her an usurper in their eyes but not in the eyes of her followers.

3) But she decided to usurp the crown instead.

4) Wasting all your enemies might be considered equivalent.

5) Unlike what you think conquest doesn't need legal claim only appearances. Take Hernan Cortes as an example.

6) You saw the process, and consequences will be next season.

You know what "usurper" means do you?

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2 hours ago, Emie said:

I believe I read somewhere that that Cersei's great-great-great...... (there were many more greats) grandmother was a Baratheon. And since Westeros would obviously try to keep the crown with the Baratheon line, then Cersei is the next one. Especially since Robert and his entire family are dead. The Lannister's Baratheon ancestor is the only living line left. 

No, that is untrue.  It was shown to be from a fictive source not a canonical one, and so it doesn't count.

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1 hour ago, dsug said:

Yeah I like calling it a coup. She doesn't need legal claim if there's a knife to your throat, or a barrel of wildfire under your house. 

I'd imagine the vast majority of people killed in the Sept were Lords and Ladies.  So you hit the nail on the head IMO.  She took it because there wasn't anyone left in King's Landing to oppose her.

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I'm not sure we can call Cersei's ascension a usurpation. There has to be a real monarch/king for a usurper to usurp a throne. But we have no clue if such a person still exists in the show. The Targaryen-Baratheons are all dead, and we have no claim who is next in line. The throne cannot remain vacant so Cersei as Queen Dowager might actually have the best claim (Dany aside, of course) anyone in Westeros still has.

It is an interesting question who would come after Shireen/Myrcella in the books if you exclude Dany and Aegon.

If we pretend Cersei's walk didn't happen then her claim as Queen Dowager could actually be considered to be stronger than that of, say, Selwyn or Brienne Tarth simply because she also happens to be the Lady of Casterly Rock, commanding vast troops and an insane amount of wealth. At this point the Crown would desperately need a person who can pay its debts - the Lady of Casterly Rock would do much better in that department than some distant (and impoverished) Targaryen cousin.

However, I still think that such a development makes no sense in the books. Cersei cannot blow up the sept in the books nor is she right now in any position to ever seize power or stage a coup. She simply lacks the men and most likely won't get them in time. If she ever acquires power in KL again it will be because she allies herself with Euron or retreats to Casterly Rock to come back with an army.

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31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

However, I still think that such a development makes no sense in the books. Cersei cannot blow up the sept in the books nor is she right now in any position to ever seize power or stage a coup. She simply lacks the men and most likely won't get them in time. If she ever acquires power in KL again it will be because she allies herself with Euron or retreats to Casterly Rock to come back with an army.

How come she can’t blow up the Sept of Baelor in the books? I’m not disagreeing, just inquiring.

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If she's acting as Queen Regent because all the kids are dead, that's one thing.  But we and all the characters know she took the throne AS QUEEN by power and fear. 

She cray, that's it

Casterly Rock is not going to help her.  Kevan Lannister despises her.  She I guess controlls the KL guard and the Royal Guard.  I don't know who she thinks is going to fight for her when other forces come down.  Her plan is MORE WYLDE FIRE.  She only can blow up parts of the city until there's nothing left.  I think Jaime will end up having to stop her.  There is not one person "acceptable" in King's Landing the people would want on the throne........... I'm sure they are like "wtf, she's up there, we can't stop her, the King's Guard are there protecting her".

She would have to marry Euron and HIM sit on the throne.... which is a total bastardization to all, and no one would want that including Cercei.  If not, Euron will attack her to get the throne for himself.  Plus, Euron in the book wants DANY as his wife and will kill her as soon as she has conquered - leaving the crown to him (which is still illegal in the laws).  NO ONE likes the Iron Men.  To have one of them sit in power in King's Landing would affront everyone IN Westeros!  The Iron Men are a scourge and everyone hates them.

Cercei has no allies.  No current enemies because like the person posted above, most all the High Lords were killed at the Sept.  Except maybe Dorne because they, too, are totally cray and only want chaos and a woman on a throne so Elaria can pave the way for her to rule Dorne (totally bastardized from the books also).  Even though Elaria had LESS than any validity to sit in power in Dorne.  It's absurd.

Concerning Baratheon lineage, Dany is not having any parts of that either.  Everyone but her is a usurper. 

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8 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

How come she can’t blow up the Sept of Baelor in the books? I’m not disagreeing, just inquiring.

Because the alchemists already found the wildfire under the Great Sept. It was burned with Aerys' other fruits on the Blackwater. And unlike in the show Cersei doesn't command the allegiance of the little birds nor would Varys allow her and Qyburn to do something like this when Aegon is supposed to take an intact city.

Right now Cersei simply doesn't have the men to do something like that. The sparrows aren't just in the Great Sept they are in front of it and on the entire hill. It is completely impossible to assume that some guys putting stuff under it would go completely unnoticed.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because the alchemists already found the wildfire under the Great Sept. It was burned with Aerys' other fruits on the Blackwater. And unlike in the show Cersei doesn't command the allegiance of the little birds nor would Varys allow her and Qyburn to do something like this when Aegon is supposed to take an intact city.

Right now Cersei simply doesn't have the men to do something like that. The sparrows aren't just in the Great Sept they are in front of it and on the entire hill. It is completely impossible to assume that some guys putting stuff under it would go completely unnoticed.

I tend to agree things in the books will play out very very differently, but disagree that the result won't be similar, with Cersei claiming the throne.

The main difference is certain to be Aegon and how he fits into the picture.

In the books, Tommen is much younger. He definitely likes Marge a lot, but he is too young to get heart sick and jump out of the window. There is also the fact that Tyene in the books will be infiltrating the Sparrows. 

I think the way things play out in the books, Tommen will be murdered. The Tyrells will jump to Aegon, and Cersei will claim the throne as the city faces invasion. She will then possibly burn the city to kill the invaders, which is what Aerys actually wanted to do to Tywin's army.

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Really I would say if theres an issue is how does Cersei immediately command the loyalty of the Kings Guard and the Lannister forces?

I wouldn't say this is necessarily unrealistic given the family connection and the situation but it felt we were missing a scene or two, something along the lines of Cersei adressing some troops, telling them that they knew the faith needed to be removed but that Kevan was too weak to do it so she acted.

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3 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I tend to agree things in the books will play out very very differently, but disagree that the result won't be similar, with Cersei claiming the throne.

The main difference is certain to be Aegon and how he fits into the picture.

In the books, Tommen is much younger. He definitely likes Marge a lot, but he is too young to get heart sick and jump out of the window. There is also the fact that Tyene in the books will be infiltrating the Sparrows. 

I think the way things play out in the books, Tommen will be murdered. The Tyrells will jump to Aegon, and Cersei will claim the throne as the city faces invasion. She will then possibly burn the city to kill the invaders, which is what Aerys actually wanted to do to Tywin's army.

There is no chance that the story will play out even remotely the way it does in the books because Cersei simply lacks the men to stage a coup of any sort. There is no Lannister army in the city but there is a Tyrell army there. The Tyrells will remain in charge even while they are moving against Aegon. And Varys has no reason to allow Cersei to damage or burn down the city and the castle he wants to give to Aegon. If Qyburn tries such a thing he will die. It is as simple as that.

More importantly, book Cersei is much more paranoid. She thinks Tyrion is still in the walls, allied with the Tyrells, and wants to kill her and Tommen. After Kevan is murdered the same way as Tywin something in her will snap. She will think she and/or Tommen are next and is going to want to leave the city, not take it over. Because even sitting on the Iron Throne and killing all her visible enemies won't protect her from Tyrion in the walls. She already considers moving the court to Casterly Rock in AFfC and I think she is trying to go there as soon as she gets a chance. She might have Ser Robert kill some people (Mace, Margaery, Tarly, the High Septon, or the septas guarding her) before she leaves but there is no chance that she actually thinks she can seize power again and feel safe in the city. That would just go completely against her mindset and character as it was established in AFfC and ADwD.

The wildfire could still become relevant later in the books, but I'm more inclined this will play a role when Dany is knocking at the gates, not Aegon. And then Aegon/Varys or Euron (with Cersei as his queen) might be the ones considering such an action. But that would mean that Cersei returned to power only after allying herself with Euron and retaking KL from Aegon or whoever holds it that point.

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On 29 June 2016 at 0:23 PM, Kusanagi said:

And she is the suspect of incest and the Sparrows is charging her numerous crimes! No one in Westros would take her as legitimate queen, absolutely no one. 

Furthermore, since she is recklessly killing Lannisters left and right, it is doubtful that Lannister is a powerful united house now.

It's quite obvious she's ruling through fear dude. She's the Mad King 2.0

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no chance that the story will play out even remotely the way it does in the books because Cersei simply lacks the men to stage a coup of any sort. There is no Lannister army in the city but there is a Tyrell army there. The Tyrells will remain in charge even while they are moving against Aegon. And Varys has no reason to allow Cersei to damage or burn down the city and the castle he wants to give to Aegon. If Qyburn tries such a thing he will die. It is as simple as that.

More importantly, book Cersei is much more paranoid. She thinks Tyrion is still in the walls, allied with the Tyrells, and wants to kill her and Tommen. After Kevan is murdered the same way as Tywin something in her will snap. She will think she and/or Tommen are next and is going to want to leave the city, not take it over. Because even sitting on the Iron Throne and killing all her visible enemies won't protect her from Tyrion in the walls. She already considers moving the court to Casterly Rock in AFfC and I think she is trying to go there as soon as she gets a chance. She might have Ser Robert kill some people (Mace, Margaery, Tarly, the High Septon, or the septas guarding her) before she leaves but there is no chance that she actually thinks she can seize power again and feel safe in the city. That would just go completely against her mindset and character as it was established in AFfC and ADwD.

The wildfire could still become relevant later in the books, but I'm more inclined this will play a role when Dany is knocking at the gates, not Aegon. And then Aegon/Varys or Euron (with Cersei as his queen) might be the ones considering such an action. But that would mean that Cersei returned to power only after allying herself with Euron and retaking KL from Aegon or whoever holds it that point.

^There is a Tyrell army there for now, yes.

However, some have been sent back to the Reach to defend it from Euron. Some will be sent to the Stormlands fight Aegon. And some are still needed in the Riverlands as rebellions are far from over.

The Lannister forces are not decimated, they are still very capable of being a threat, and meanwhile, over the years, nearly every important position in the administration of the Realm has been filled with Lannister sympathizers who have far too much stake in the current order to ever let the Lannisters lose power. This includes the KL city watch. So when Tommen dies, Cersei is their only real option for maintaining their position.

A coup in the books is therefore very much possible, it will simply be a more complicated scenario and will unfold quite differently.

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1 minute ago, Hippocras said:

^There is a Tyrell army there for now, yes.

However, some have been sent back to the Reach to defend it from Euron. Some will be sent to the Stormlands fight Aegon. And some are still needed in the Riverlands as rebellions are far from over.

The Lannister forces are not decimated, they are still very capable of being a threat, and meanwhile, over the years, nearly every important position in the administration of the Realm has been filled with Lannister sympathizers who have far too much stake in the current order to ever let the Lannisters lose power. This includes the KL city watch. So when Tommen dies, Cersei is their only real option for maintaining their position.

A coup in the books is therefore very much possible, it will simply be a more complicated scenario and will unfold quite differently.

You make a lot of baseless assumptions.

1. There is no reason to assume the Tyrells will care what happens in the Riverlands.

2. There are about 20,000-30,000 Tyrell men in the city right now. Mace is not going to send all of them against Aegon. Not with the Faith Militant in the city.

3. The City Watch was in the hands of Slynt and Littlefinger, not the Lannisters. And we have no idea whom they are following now - not Cersei, because her man was the deposed Osfryd Kettleblack. Not to mention that you forget that Mace Tyrell also added his own men to the City Watch as per the Epilogue.

4. George is not as stupid as to feed us the idea that having a woman walk naked through the streets is going to destroy her ability to rule and then have her seize power again openly. That just doesn't make any sense. Neither in the books nor in the show, actually.

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