What's the basis for Cersei's claim to the Iron Throne?

[JonSnow4President]

2 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

my question began asking IF Cercei actually might have a claim to rule but we just dont know what it is yet.

I'm not sure she has any claim at all.  But compare her to others and it makes as much sense or more than anyone.

As for Tyrell foreces... but "forces" I don't think usually go do anything of huge proportion without an obvious figureheard accepted by the people.  The show has really trimmed down possible heirs and blood relations in royal households...such as Loras has the semi mentally-challenged brother?  At this moment, THAT guy would have the right to rule. 

I'm not perfect maybe Cercei is not on the small council.  I'm forgetful.  Let's begin talking about Westworld since that is fresh in my mind!

Willas Tyrell, the guy we are told is smart and kind, but was injured in a joust?  Willas Tyrell, the guy who is the actual Tyrell heir, and not Loras?  There is no Tyrell sibling in the show.  Loras isn't the heir in the books.  And how the hell would Willas Tyrell have any claim to the Iron Throne?  

[Iron Mother]

8 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Willas Tyrell, the guy we are told is smart and kind, but was injured in a joust?  Willas Tyrell, the guy who is the actual Tyrell heir, and not Loras?  There is no Tyrell sibling in the show.  Loras isn't the heir in the books.  And how the hell would Willas Tyrell have any claim to the Iron Throne?  

dont know dude i am just confused anymore.  i mix the book and show sometimes.

[JonSnow4President]

1 hour ago, Iron Mother said:

dont know dude i am just confused anymore.  i mix the book and show sometimes.

In the show, the only named Tyrells are Mace, Margery, and Loras (and Olenna if we include married in elders).  Loras is explicitly the heir, and there is no mention of other cousins or siblings. Edit: I have just been made aware that there is one cousin mentioned in season 3, where Margery makes up the story about porridge plague.

In the books, there are many more named Tyrells, including Margery's normal entourage and one studying at the Citadel.  Loras is explicitly the youngest of 3 sons, and joins the Kingsguard as his older brothers secure the chain of inheritance for High Garden.  Willas Tyrell is the eldest and heir to Highgarden.  In a joust with Oberyn Martell, his horse fell and crushed a foot, leaving him crippled.  He personally bears no ill will to Oberyn for the accident (although Mace does), and even communicates with him about breeding horses, which is a passion of his.  He is known as a scholar, and by all accounts we have as a nice man. Garlan Tyrell is the middle child, and has already married a Fossoway (Reach minor house).  Garlan is supposedly superior with a sword to Loras, and trains against multiple people at a time to simulate battle.  He is the one who fights in Renly's armor and breaks Stannis' forces on the Blackwater.  As a reward for his service at the Blackwater, he is awarded a castle in the Reach (Brightwater Keep). We see him being nice to Tyrion and Sansa despite it being political suicide.  

[CerseiStark]

Cersei sits the Iron Throne because it was empty and she took it, no more, no less.  Just like it has been said when Ned entered the throne room after the Mad King was dead - Jamie could have tried to take it, or Ned could have - but Ned chose to wait for Robert.  It seems as if that's how it can work if there are no obvious heirs to immediately take it up.  

In Cersei's case, everyone else who could have objected was dead - Allowing her to take power, and those who must serve the King (or now, Queen) must bend the knee to her (Kingsguard, etc).

Until someone contests it and physically removes her, she holds the throne.  

[Iron Mother]

6 hours ago, CerseiStark said:

Cersei sits the Iron Throne because it was empty and she took it, no more, no less.  Just like it has been said when Ned entered the throne room after the Mad King was dead - Jamie could have tried to take it, or Ned could have - but Ned chose to wait for Robert.  It seems as if that's how it can work if there are no obvious heirs to immediately take it up.  

In Cersei's case, everyone else who could have objected was dead - Allowing her to take power, and those who must serve the King (or now, Queen) must bend the knee to her (Kingsguard, etc).

Until someone contests it and physically removes her, she holds the throne.  

so i figure, the only person left in a family - people would be like "ok yea maybe it should be her" does anyone know what kind of laws or rules are in place?  and who decides?  But being a woman would auto disqualify her right?

To kick out cercei and put in someone else would have to be by decree from somewhere and with an explanation in the "succession code" or whatever.

I WROTE THIS simply based on it was like a shocking moment when she sat on the throne................. and i did not know if that was because we - the audience - knows she blew up the sept and killed all those people OR if it was because she was taking the throne simply assuming she could/should or combinations of many things.  So my original post was a question not really a statement.

Still so far I have not seen a hard explanation with evidence why she should or should not be on the throne.  And I think that's because maybe we don't know.

[Rhollo]

1 hour ago, Iron Mother said:

so i figure, the only person left in a family - people would be like "ok yea maybe it should be her" does anyone know what kind of laws or rules are in place?  and who decides?  But being a woman would auto disqualify her right?

To kick out cercei and put in someone else would have to be by decree from somewhere and with an explanation in the "succession code" or whatever.

I WROTE THIS simply based on it was like a shocking moment when she sat on the throne................. and i did not know if that was because we - the audience - knows she blew up the sept and killed all those people OR if it was because she was taking the throne simply assuming she could/should or combinations of many things.  So my original post was a question not really a statement.

Still so far I have not seen a hard explanation with evidence why she should or should not be on the throne.  And I think that's because maybe we don't know.

If the Kingdoms weren't in total chaos right now and everyone would commit to sorting this thing out by law, most likely a great council would be called with the maesters would go through the Baratheon and Targaryen family trees to figure out who is the closest riving offsping of the royal bloodline.

Going by what and who we know as viewers/readers, that would be Daenerys, although if some distant male Targ realative were to be found, he would actually come before her (it was decreed after the Dance of the Dragons, that all men come before women in royal succession).

Cerseis own claim is very, very weak at best. There are instances of widows inheriting from their husbands (Lady Hornwood, Olenna in the show), but royal succession and Lordships might be different.

Also, it is kind of a big deal that the High Septon gives his blessing to a new king. And the chance of Cersei receiving that are rather minimal 

[dsug]

On 10/12/2016 at 3:47 AM, Rhollo said:

Also, IIRC the City Watch was reinforced with Tyrell soldiers when the whole sparrow thing startet. 

I am not saying Olenna should be queen or she has any formal claim to it (neither has Cersei imho). I am saying the Tyrell forces should have control over KL right now because they would have been most likely to fill the power vacuum Cersei created. Not as the new royal house, but just to keep the city in order the whole mess is sorted out.

And while it doesn't make much sense for Olenna to be the new head of house Tyrell (instead of some Tyrell uncle/nephew/cousin), she obviously is the one in charge on the show.

btw. Cersei is NOT on the small council, Kevan made it pretty clear that she isn't anymore. She just refused to leave the room a few times when they had their meetings. But if being on the current SC is any reason to make someone more acceptable as interim authority in KL, Olenna is the most recent member of it still alive.

that has never been stated im pretty sure.

But regardless, there was a power vacuum and Cersei, the most consistent politician in the city for years now, filled it. She's obviously not that qualified, but she's a familiar person to sat the least, and, much like Robert was the "face" of the rebellion, his wife is now the "face" of king's landing. 

[Iron Mother]

4 hours ago, Rhollo said:

If the Kingdoms weren't in total chaos right now and everyone would commit to sorting this thing out by law, most likely a great council would be called with the maesters would go through the Baratheon and Targaryen family trees to figure out who is the closest riving offsping of the royal bloodline.

Going by what and who we know as viewers/readers, that would be Daenerys, although if some distant male Targ realative were to be found, he would actually come before her (it was decreed after the Dance of the Dragons, that all men come before women in royal succession).

Cerseis own claim is very, very weak at best. There are instances of widows inheriting from their husbands (Lady Hornwood, Olenna in the show), but royal succession and Lordships might be different.

Also, it is kind of a big deal that the High Septon gives his blessing to a new king. And the chance of Cersei receiving that are rather minimal 

this is basically true.  she is on the throne because of all the chaos.  no one has had the chance or op to gather and find out who actually belongs on the throne.  plus, many important people were killed in the blast. 

so, imo cercei is on the throne because of general confusion currently.

[Rhollo]

11 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

this is basically true.  she is on the throne because of all the chaos.  no one has had the chance or op to gather and find out who actually belongs on the throne.  plus, many important people were killed in the blast. 

so, imo cercei is on the throne because of general confusion currently.

The important question is: Does sitting the Iron Throne mean she is queen ?

She was crowned by Qyburn who has absolutely no authority to do so. We have not seen any of the great houses support her claim so far (not even any minor ones, in fact). Even Lannister support is questionable, depending on how well Jamie receives her actions. The faith most certainly won't be on her side (unless she somehow manages to install a puppet of her's as the new high septon), neither will the maesters.

[Iron Mother]

12 hours ago, Rhollo said:

The important question is: Does sitting the Iron Throne mean she is queen ?

She was crowned by Qyburn who has absolutely no authority to do so. We have not seen any of the great houses support her claim so far (not even any minor ones, in fact). Even Lannister support is questionable, depending on how well Jamie receives her actions. The faith most certainly won't be on her side (unless she somehow manages to install a puppet of her's as the new high septon), neither will the maesters.

There was a rather large crowd.... "The Court" watching her ceremony.  If she was not valid in the mind of somewhat a majority at least in the capital, those people would not even be paying attention.  Could so many people be "honoring" her as now "ruling" due to fear she will have them killed or whatever?

Are they there out of fear?  Probably but that makes no sense... even tho she does have control of the military and armed forces in the city.

It just isn't clear what's going on, who will openly oppose her or whatever.... WHY is Ollena going IN SECRET to Dorne and aligning with Danaerys?  Why doesn't she just march her own army in there?  Where is everyone else in the kingdoms?  Hard to believe no one is complaining or challenging her.

I said before the same thing..... WHO is Qyburn?  No authority.  But in that world thing can work that way.  That's why it's always called GAME of thrones... people can snatch it/power in time of turmoil without legitimacy.  Personally I think it's a dramatic stretch but whatever, it's a decent story arc.

[JonSnow4President]

8 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

There was a rather large crowd.... "The Court" watching her ceremony.  If she was not valid in the mind of somewhat a majority at least in the capital, those people would not even be paying attention.  Could so many people be "honoring" her as now "ruling" due to fear she will have them killed or whatever?

Are they there out of fear?  Probably but that makes no sense... even tho she does have control of the military and armed forces in the city.

 

She does not. She has no control over the Tyrell forces that are in the city, and has no direct control over the Lannister forces, as they are out of town with Jaime.  Jaime returns as she is being crowned, so Lannister power can not have seized the throne for her.  Not to mention she killed the actual Lannister commander of any forces they may have still had in the city (Kevan). 

[Iron Mother]

3 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

She does not. She has no control over the Tyrell forces that are in the city, and has no direct control over the Lannister forces, as they are out of town with Jaime.  Jaime returns as she is being crowned, so Lannister power can not have seized the throne for her.  Not to mention she killed the actual Lannister commander of any forces they may have still had in the city (Kevan). 

well, you noticed that..... then I said why is Olenna going on the sly to Dorne when her own forces are right there and she or her proxy can go to the Court and say "no, this is not happening".

I would imagine assuming the throne and ruling power gives cercei some level of power... like the city watch and gold cloaks, etc.  I really don't know all the specifics.

[JonSnow4President]

22 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

well, you noticed that..... then I said why is Olenna going on the sly to Dorne when her own forces are right there and she or her proxy can go to the Court and say "no, this is not happening".

I would imagine assuming the throne and ruling power gives cercei some level of power... like the city watch and gold cloaks, etc.  I really don't know all the specifics.

The city watch are the gold cloaks, and are established, both in book and show, as being essentially worthless in any actual combat, such as a fully equipped Tyrell army in the city. Any reality where that army doesn't retaliate for the Sept long enough for someone to go there and take command ignores that reality every bit as much as the show's version of events.  

This isn't the first or only event the show has tried to just make happen without a whole lot of logic, and I'd wager it sure as hell won't be the last.  

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

@Iron Mother qoute isn't working for me, if you remember in one of the episodes all the bastards are hunted down and killed ? this shows that there must be some legitimate claim to the throne if there is good enough proof they are of direct bloodline. I can't remember rightly but it's around the time that Joffrey is crowned and then Roberts bastards are come out and are being hunted down.

[Rhollo]

2 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

@Iron Mother qoute isn't working for me, if you remember in one of the episodes all the bastards are hunted down and killed ? this shows that there must be some legitimate claim to the throne if there is good enough proof they are of direct bloodline. I can't remember rightly but it's around the time that Joffrey is crowned and then Roberts bastards are come out and are being hunted down.

Roberts Bastards were hunted down because they could be used as proof that all of his children should have black hair and Cerseis blonde children are illigitmate. 

[TheKitttenGuard]

The Tyrell Army was essentially ordered out of KL after Tommen alligned with the High Sparrow, and Olenna went with them.

The last conversation between Olenna and Margery had Margery say to Olenna that they went against the Crown (which they did since was done against Tommen not wanting to move against the High Sparrow after his meeting).

 

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

@rhollo had forgotten all about that being the reason well pointed out, so bastards have no claim then at all to the throne even if there is significant proof and others to come forward and back up the claim ?

[Rhollo]

12 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

@rhollo had forgotten all about that being the reason well pointed out, so bastards have no claim then at all to the throne even if there is significant proof and others to come forward and back up the claim ?

Correct, a bastard has no claim as long as he is not legitimized.

[Iron Mother]

On 10/15/2016 at 5:45 AM, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

@Iron Mother qoute isn't working for me, if you remember in one of the episodes all the bastards are hunted down and killed ? this shows that there must be some legitimate claim to the throne if there is good enough proof they are of direct bloodline. I can't remember rightly but it's around the time that Joffrey is crowned and then Roberts bastards are come out and are being hunted down.

(1) JOFFREY was taking it upon himself and sending out goons to do that because of his own insecurity and shame that his father was making other babies.  Because after he did it, everyone was outraged - including Cercei.  I think it was simply a Joffrey tantrum and has nothing to do with succession.  If that was the case, Tywin would be the one sending out people to do it because after Robert, his family (his SIDE of the royal family) is now in the poised position so why leave "potentials" out there alive.

(2) Jon Arryn was investigating the bastards and I can't tell if he was doing this because it was like "if there are bastards AND it is proved those are not Robert's actual children (the Cercei Jamie incest) then as Hand I have to make some kind of decision to go public".

Above are 2 things I could believe about the situation.  But I'm not sure there is more information to bear it out. 

TO ME they could both be right (either of them)

However, both the bastards and the incest claim is tied together.  As if, "these are not Robert's children" (and how could they actually PROVE that unless there is a DNA machine in the Old Town citadel) ............ then we must go find a suitable bastard to install on the throne instead (also requiring that DNA machine in Old Town).  If you do that, you must kill Cercei, Jamie, all the children and then there is a lone bastard on the throne.......... and suddenly, a resurrected "true line" of Baratheon?  It seems too convoluted.

[srini]

Legally, there is no basis for Cersei's claim to the Iron Throne. According to the "legal system" (or more exactly the "interlocking legal structures") that governs Seven Kingdoms, the claim to Iron Throne is based on hereditary succession or right of conquest. Cersei is neither a conquer nor has the hereditary right.

Then again who else in Seven Kingdoms is a conquer or has the hereditary right?

Jon - He has the strongest hereditary right to the Iron Throne but he doesn't know it yet. Not clear if he has any interest in Iron Throne.

Dany - Has strong, but not the strongest, hereditary right and means to conquer. But in Seven Kingdom yet.

Euron - is neither a conquer nor has the hereditary right. But plans to claim Iron Throne through marriage with Dany. 

So Cersei is just filling in the empty Iron Throne by default because she controls the capital and no immediate challenge from others with stronger claim.