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Beret of Stor

Is Sansa still married to Tyrion?

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Sansa doesn't know where he is.  Many people assume he is dead.  Some people know he is missing.  Only a very few know where he really is.  Many people know that he married Sansa.  Most don't know that the marriage was never consummated.  So is this going to be an issue down the road.

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I wondered about this issue especially because LF plans on marrying her off and revealing her true identity and of course on the show he married her to Ramsey (no one seemed to care that she was already married). Not sure how non-consummated unions or abandonment are dealt with in Westeros. Does there have to be a legal divorce or annulment? The people might think Tyrion is dead, but Cersei still has a price on his head

 

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I suppose that if she will be found to be a virgin by a team of septas examining her, the marriage can be easily annuled on grounds of non consummation.

A divorce would be possibly much harder to obtain and would require a "full" marriage. Which is probably why estranged couples like Doran and Mellario live seperately rather that officially dissolve their marriage.

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Any annulment would require a decision by the HIgh Septon or a Council of Faith (according to Tyrion).  Given that she is currently a fugitive, this presents difficulties.  Even if an application is presented, whether to grant it would be an inherently political decision.  While lack of consummation is grounds for an annulment, I am not convinced it would require one to be granted.

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Yes, she is. As Nevets said, without personally making her case before the High Septon or a Council of Faith (also in Kings Landing), she couldn't get out of it. And that's nothing Sansa would survive.

But there is a solution beyond Tyrion getting the axe in public: Bigamy. Tyrion's bigamy, to be specific. He is still legally married to Tysha, that marriage wasn't dissolved by the High Septon or a Council of Faith either, nor is Tysha confirmed dead. Anybody blabbing this fact to the wrong (or right) people and Sansa is scot-free, while Tyrion gets another search warrant. And LF is aware of that...

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3 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Yes, she is. As Nevets said, without personally making her case before the High Septon or a Council of Faith (also in Kings Landing), she couldn't get out of it. And that's nothing Sansa would survive.

We don't know that a Council of the Faith has to be in KL. Could be anywhere for all we know.

3 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

But there is a solution beyond Tyrion getting the axe in public: Bigamy. Tyrion's bigamy, to be specific. He is still legally married to Tysha, that marriage wasn't dissolved by the High Septon or a Council of Faith either, nor is Tysha confirmed dead. Anybody blabbing this fact to the wrong (or right) people and Sansa is scot-free, while Tyrion gets another search warrant. And LF is aware of that...

We have no idea whether or not Tywin went through the High Septon or a Council of the Faith to have Tyrion's marriage annulled. With us not knowing what exactly he did we cannot claim what he did not. But it would actually be stupid to assume that the High Septon actually married Tyrion to Sansa if he was still married to Tysha at this point. That would make the marriage invalid, after all, and Tywin had any interest that Sansa never get a chance to ever annul her marriage to Tyrion.

Littlefinger's plan right now is to wait until they get confirmation that Tyrion is dead.

Under Aegon VI Sansa could easily enough go to KL and get her annulment from the High Septon. Not to mention that Aegon and Connington could actually lie and state that Tyrion Lannister is dead. Who would contest their testimony?

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7 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Yes, she is. As Nevets said, without personally making her case before the High Septon or a Council of Faith (also in Kings Landing), she couldn't get out of it. And that's nothing Sansa would survive.

But there is a solution beyond Tyrion getting the axe in public: Bigamy. Tyrion's bigamy, to be specific. He is still legally married to Tysha, that marriage wasn't dissolved by the High Septon or a Council of Faith either, nor is Tysha confirmed dead. Anybody blabbing this fact to the wrong (or right) people and Sansa is scot-free, while Tyrion gets another search warrant. And LF is aware of that...

Tyrion's marriage to Tysha was likely never valid in the first place.  13-year-olds cannot marry without consent, even in Westeros.  Tyrion definitely did not have his parent's consent, so no valid marriage.  Essentially, there is nothing to annul.   Sansa's guardian was the Crown, so the marriage ceremony was a valid one, hence the need for an annulment.  

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know that a Council of the Faith has to be in KL. Could be anywhere for all we know.

A Council of Faith is with a 99.99% basically the same as the Most Devout - who reside in KL

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have no idea whether or not Tywin went through the High Septon or a Council of the Faith to have Tyrion's marriage annulled. With us not knowing what exactly he did we cannot claim what he did not. But it would actually be stupid to assume that the High Septon actually married Tyrion to Sansa if he was still married to Tysha at this point. That would make the marriage invalid, after all, and Tywin had any interest that Sansa never get a chance to ever annul her marriage to Tyrion.

We know he did nothing of the sort, Tyrion doesn't remember showing up in front of the High Septon to testify or anything. Tywin simply swept it under the rug. And Tywin knew no High Septon would ever make problems to the Lannisters about it. Because no High Septon would ever champion a single female peasant against House Lannister - except for the High Sparrow.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger's plan right now is to wait until they get confirmation that Tyrion is dead.

Under Aegon VI Sansa could easily enough go to KL and get her annulment from the High Septon. Not to mention that Aegon and Connington could actually lie and state that Tyrion Lannister is dead. Who would contest their testimony?

Likely. But a plan B never hurts.

Yes, under Aegon VI Sansa could go to KL without risking her live - just her freedom.

Tyrion could contest their testimony. And it would be utter disaster, destroying their political reputation.

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

Tyrion's marriage to Tysha was likely never valid in the first place.  13-year-olds cannot marry without consent, even in Westeros.  Tyrion definitely did not have his parent's consent, so no valid marriage.  Essentially, there is nothing to annul.   Sansa's guardian was the Crown, so the marriage ceremony was a valid one, hence the need for an annulment.  

13-year-olds can. The Faith got no problem with that.

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3 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

A Council of Faith is with a 99.99% basically the same as the Most Devout - who reside in KL.

Can you give me any textual evidence and then the calculation which led you to this bold assertion? 

We don't know what a Council of the Faith is and subsequently it could be just a gathering of seven septons and septas. In fact, considering that the Most Devout just hang out with the High Septon all day it is actually very unlikely that such a council is also made up of people who are with the High Septon. In such a case the High Septon himself could decide such matters much more quickly than some committee.

Not to mention that you have keep tradition in mind. If the King of the Rock or the King of the Vale (or nobles in those lands) wanted the Faith to decide anything they would not consult some foreigner in Oldtown - especially not in those days when the office of the High Septon did not exist.

Come to think of it, whatever evidence Littlefinger or anyone might have of Tyrion's earlier marriage would also be laid before the High Septon or a Council of the Faith to annul the marriage between Sansa Stark and Tyrion Lannister on the basis of bigamy. Thus nothing changes in your scenario, actually.

3 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

We know he did nothing of the sort, Tyrion doesn't remember showing up in front of the High Septon to testify or anything.

Why should he do that? He was a minor, his lord father could have spoken in his stead. Not to mention that he was the brother-in-law of the king. Robert could have resolved the whole issue for Tywin without Tyrion never getting involved in any of it.

3 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Tywin simply swept it under the rug. And Tywin knew no High Septon would ever make problems to the Lannisters about it. Because no High Septon would ever champion a single female peasant against House Lannister - except for the High Sparrow.

That is conjecture. Times change. I say Tywin was not stupid enough to risk any of that.

3 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Yes, under Aegon VI Sansa could go to KL without risking her live - just her freedom.

Well, if she goes there with a Vale army, helps to seat Aegon VI on the Iron Throne, and has her marriage annulled to marry the new king nobody is going to imprison her.

3 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Tyrion could contest their testimony. And it would be utter disaster, destroying their political reputation.

Sure, but they wouldn't know something like then when they make such bold claims, right? I don't think they will but so what.

3 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

13-year-olds can. The Faith got no problem with that.

They can marry when the king and the Faith allow it. That much we know. We have no evidence what's a reason for an annulment/an invalid marriage. Being a minor might be one, especially if your father is a lord or the king. Note that Yandel implies that Aegon V had the power to dissolve the marriage between Jaehaerys and Shaera. He chose not to do it, though.

If Sansa ever marries Harrold Hardyng they might get around the whole Faith thing by marrying him to Alayne Stone and only revealing her true identity later on.

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All of this assumes that Sansa has any interest in dissolving her marriage in the first place.  At this point, she has little interest in being dangled as marriage bait, and essentially thinks as much when Littlefinger presents his marriage proposal to her.  Her marriage to Tyrion keeps her from being pressured into marriage, a fact she is probably perfectly happy with, at least for the time being.  Tbh, I will be shocked if she actually marries either Harry or Aegon.

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32 minutes ago, Nevets said:

All of this assumes that Sansa has any interest in dissolving her marriage in the first place.  At this point, she has little interest in being dangled as marriage bait, and essentially thinks as much when Littlefinger presents his marriage proposal to her.  Her marriage to Tyrion keeps her from being pressured into marriage, a fact she is probably perfectly happy with, at least for the time being.  Tbh, I will be shocked if she actually marries either Harry or Aegon.

We'll have to wait and see. Aegon could be a way to real power, and she might want that in the near future. The Harry plan feels just wrong, in a sense, I'd be very surprised if they went through with that. Not to mention that it lies sometime in the future still because they first wanted to have her 'safely widowed'. For the Winterfell plan there was no rush because it was an enterprise for next spring.

However, Aegon is changing the game and the Vale might no be forced to commit to one side or another. After all, both Tommen and Aegon might ask them for help and since Littlefinger cannot technically object to assist the Lannisters/Tyrells it would actually be wise move to support Aegon to rid themselves of them for good. Not to mention that Littlefinger as a Lord Protector might simply lack the authority to prevent the Lords of the Vale to commit themselves to Aegon's cause. If such a situation threatens he would be forced to lead that movement rather than risk to lose authority in the process by staying behind or trying to keep them in line with empty threats.

I'd not be surprised if we see Sansa and Harry betrothed and then Harry lead the Vale men to a victory over the Tyrells at KL, tragically dying in battle. Sansa could then actually try to marry Aegon, especially if the Vale turns out to be crucial for his campaign.

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23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We'll have to wait and see. Aegon could be a way to real power, and she might want that in the near future. The Harry plan feels just wrong, in a sense, I'd be very surprised if they went through with that. Not to mention that it lies sometime in the future still because they first wanted to have her 'safely widowed'. For the Winterfell plan there was no rush because it was an enterprise for next spring.

However, Aegon is changing the game and the Vale might no be forced to commit to one side or another. After all, both Tommen and Aegon might ask them for help and since Littlefinger cannot technically object to assist the Lannisters/Tyrells it would actually be wise move to support Aegon to rid themselves of them for good. Not to mention that Littlefinger as a Lord Protector might simply lack the authority to prevent the Lords of the Vale to commit themselves to Aegon's cause. If such a situation threatens he would be forced to lead that movement rather than risk to lose authority in the process by staying behind or trying to keep them in line with empty threats.

I'd not be surprised if we see Sansa and Harry betrothed and then Harry lead the Vale men to a victory over the Tyrells at KL, tragically dying in battle. Sansa could then actually try to marry Aegon, especially if the Vale turns out to be crucial for his campaign.

I have a suspicion Aegon isn't going to last long enough to do much. Given how late he is introduced (plus the fact that one of the main characters has yet to even set foot in Westeros) and that he is practically perfection personified, the kid might as well have a bullseye as his sigil.  I think he will be no more a temporary distraction.  Although I wouldn't be surprised if JonCon caused trouble with his greyscale.  But that's another matter entirely.

As for marriage, I see little advantage for either.  Sansa's interest is mainly to the North, and I'm not convinced she could persuade the Vale armies to support her in a play for the IT, if she would even want to.  And Aegon has no interest in the North.  Aegon is more likely to marry Arianne if anyone.   

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I.think technically this post should have been placed under General, but I will answer with info from twoiaf. Baelor the blessed was married to his sister daena, but it was never consummated. However, they were still considered married until the high septon annulled it. So tyrion and sansa are still married.

I'm my opinion, (maybe I'm just being hopeful) it will come to light that tyrion is already legally married to tysha, so his marriage to sansa will be null and void.

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10 hours ago, brightflame princess said:

I'm my opinion, (maybe I'm just being hopeful) it will come to light that tyrion is already legally married to tysha, so his marriage to sansa will be null and void.

But that would then have to be determined by the same authorities (High Septon or Council of the Faith) as any other pretext to get an annulment. Just some guys claiming that Tyrion was still legally married by the time he married Sansa and showing the evidence to each other isn't going to change things legally.

And then we have to keep in mind that there are precedents for bigamy and polygamy in Westeros. If Aegon I and Maegor the Cruel are legally considered to be married to multiple women at the same time then it is hardly the case that shouting 'polygamist' is automatically going to annul the Sansa-Tyrion marriage.

On 2.7.2016 at 1:48 AM, Nevets said:

I have a suspicion Aegon isn't going to last long enough to do much. Given how late he is introduced (plus the fact that one of the main characters has yet to even set foot in Westeros) and that he is practically perfection personified, the kid might as well have a bullseye as his sigil.  I think he will be no more a temporary distraction.  Although I wouldn't be surprised if JonCon caused trouble with his greyscale.  But that's another matter entirely.

As for marriage, I see little advantage for either.  Sansa's interest is mainly to the North, and I'm not convinced she could persuade the Vale armies to support her in a play for the IT, if she would even want to.  And Aegon has no interest in the North.  Aegon is more likely to marry Arianne if anyone.   

The question how long Aegon is going to last is irrelevant in that. The point is that Prince Aegon has come now and is as of yet unmarried. Sansa doesn't have to marry him for Littlefinger considering and deciding that she should marry him to extend their sphere of influence to a completely different level.

The idea that Littlefinger is not going to make a bid for the Iron Throne sooner or later is pretty unlikely. The Winterfell idea is a thing for next spring and, possibly, nothing but a carrot to steer Sansa in the right direction. After all, we know that Littlefinger wants to seduce her and eventually have her. I'd not be surprised if the whole Harry thing is just a game, a way for Littlefinger to test Sansa's skills in the seduction department and to teach her some new lessons - perhaps that she should not allow herself to get caught up by her emotions, or that it is a huge mistake to actually think people (even your own friends) actually want to do what they tell you they want. When in fact they are after something completely different.

I mean, do we know who Harry's heir is? What if it is one of the Gulltown Arryns or even the present Lord Grafton? Then the whole point of this charade could be to kill Harry. In the end he has to go anyway, because Littlefinger clearly wants Sansa for himself.

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