[Spoilers] Ruining "The north remembers" & "Vengeance, Justice, Fire and Blood"

[GCabot]

One of the best things about G.R.R.M.’s books is his ability to provide constant reveals of the unexpected. Two particular favorites of mine can be summarized by two phrases:

1. “Vengeance. . . . Justice. . . . Fire and blood.”
2. “The north remembers. . . .”

Both of these phrases appear in the Season 6 finale, “The Winds of Winter,” but while I appreciate their inclusion and sympathize with the difficulties of making an on-screen adaption of something as complex as ASoIaF, I feel that D. & D. made unfortunate choices in relation to them that effectively neutered the impact of both of these rousing phrases.

“Vengeance. . . . Justice. . . . Fire and blood.”

In the books, as in the T.V. show, Prince Doran Martell appears to be a frustrating character at first. We sympathize with the characters who rail at Prince Doran for his apparent lack of action in reacting to the death of Prince Oberyn, and more broadly, to the murder of Princess Elia and her children. Thus, what makes this moment so great is the revelation that Prince Doran is not the weak, timid ruler everyone believes he is.

Prince Doran is presented in direct contrast to his brother, Oberyn. Whereas Oberyn was impulsive and passionate, Doran is cold and calculating, an atypical trait for a Dornishman. Finally, when he reveals his true thoughts (AFfC, ch. 40, The Princess in the Tower), we find out that Doran has been plotting revenge all along by working towards a Targaryen restoration:

“You mistake patience for forbearance. I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children.” (AFfC, ch. 40)

Originally, the plan was to have Doran’s heiress (Arianne, absent in the T.V. show) secretly marry Prince Viserys, but this was foiled upon Viserys’s death in Vaes Dothrak. Afterwards, the plan shifted to seeking out Queen Daenerys in order to work together towards Daenerys’s reclamation of the Iron Throne. But in any case, what makes this moment so moving is finding out that there is hope that the wrongs done to the Dornish may yet be righted, especially after our initial hopes were dashed by the tragic death of Prince Oberyn in the trial by combat against the Mountain.

“[Quentyn] has gone to bring us back our heart’s desire.”

She narrowed her eyes. “What is our heart’s desire?”

“Vengeance.” His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. “Justice.” Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood.” (AFfC, ch. 40)

The T.V. show portrayal, however, completely robs this moment of its impact. Prince Doran was summarily dispatched in Episode One of Season Six (“The Red Woman”), leaving these words to be uttered by two different persons, Ellaria Sand and Varys. Worse, it is used as an offer of alliance to Lady Olenna after the loss of Mace, Loras, and Margaery at “the Red Septing.” The problem here is the complete lack of a reveal. We have long known that the only character trait Ellaria appears to have is a thirst for revenge, and Olenna just saw her family’s entire future go up in green flames through the actions of her hated adversary, Queen Cersei. Seeking revenge by allying with Daenerys is the obvious move, rather than the unexpected one. Furthermore, D. & D. could have arrived in this same exact place in the plot without randomly killing off Prince Doran, and in doing so, could have preserved the revelatory power of this moment. Instead, we get a scene that sterilizes the emotional effect of these words. 

“The north remembers. . . .”

Perhaps even more egregious is the treatment of the Northern equivalent. In the books, “The north remembers . . .” has a multi-layered meaning, but primarily is used to convey two sentiments: First, the Northern houses remember the wrongs that have been done to them, especially the betrayal by the Boltons and Freys, exemplified by the Red Wedding. Second, the Northern houses remember their history, and have been loyal to the Starks for more than a thousand years because the Starks have largely been good rulers who have earned such devotion. Yet, the T.V.-show portrayal appears to contradict both of these concepts actively, never mind supporting them. This can be seen by looking at the three houses specifically called out by Lady Lyanna Mormont in The Winds of Winter: House Manderly, House Glover, and House Cerwyn.

Like with “Vengeance. . . . Justice. . . . Fire and blood,” what makes “the north remembers . . .” such a great moment in the books is the revelation that despite appearances, the Northern houses are not simply accepting the rule of House Bolton after its betrayal of the Starks. Rather, many of them are actively working to restore the Starks to power, just as Prince Doran is with the Targaryens. 

The main protagonist to this effect that we know of in the books is Lord Wyman Manderly. Publically, the Manderlys have declared allegiance to the Iron Throne despite the death of Ser Wendel Manderly, Wyman’s son, at the Red Wedding, as well as the torturous death of Lady Donella Hornwood (née Manderly) and betrayal of the Manderly forces with Ser Rodrik Cassel during the Battle at Winterfell, both at the hands of Ramsay Snow. Wyman eventually, however, reveals to Ser Davos the true reasons the Manderlys had not openly defied the Iron Throne (ADwD, ch. 29, Davos IV): First, Lord Wyman’s sole, male heir, Wylis, was being held hostage by the Lannisters at Harrenhal.

“Should I refuse, Wylis would die a traitor’s death, White Harbor would be stormed and sacked, and my people would suffer the same fate as the Reynes of Castamere.” (ADwD, ch. 29)

Second, the Manderlys’ court was full of Freys and other potential Lannister spies, watching for signs of betrayal.

“Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me.” (ADwD, ch. 29))

Finally, the Manderlys needed someone with Stark blood as a focal point to rally Northern resistance behind as an alternative to the Boltons.

“Roose Bolton has Lord Eddard’s daughter. To thwart him White Harbor must have Ned’s son . . . and the direwolf.” (ADwD, ch. 29)

Despite these obstacles, however, we learn that the Manderlys have been working in secret towards the return of the Starks to Winterfell. Lord Wyman has been building a large number of hidden warships, hoarding money, and actively seeking out a Stark behind whom the North may unite. Why? Because the Manderlys have neither forgotten the reasons for their historical allegiance to House Stark

“[Wylla] reminded me of the debt White Harbor owes to the Starks of Winterfell, a debt that can never be repaid.” (ADwD, ch. 29),

nor the treachery of the Boltons and Freys

“The fat man’s fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. ‘My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder’s bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. . . . I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter . . . but never think that means I have forgotten.’” (ADwD, ch. 29).

These are what underlie the emotional impact of this moment, the moment we realize that the Northern houses are not faithless cowards and that there may yet be justice for House Stark.

“The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done.” (ADwD, ch. 29)

It is a similar story with the Glovers and Cerwyns. In the books, the Glovers are hampered by various circumstances from openly challenging the Boltons, yet their allegiance to the Starks is clear. Robett Glover is actively conspiring with Lord Wyman at White Harbor, while Lady Sybelle Glover overtly supports King Stannis Baratheon in marching on the Boltons at Winterfell once Deepwood Motte is freed from the Ironborn. As for the Cerwyns, while Lady Jonelle Cerwyn does swear supposed fealty to Lord Roose Bolton as Warden of the North, Roose believes that this is merely due to the circumstances.

“Fear is what keeps a man alive in this world of treachery and deceit. . . . The Cerwyns . . . are not to be relied on . . . .” (ADwD, Ch. 32, Reek III)

The evidence says that both houses would declare for House Stark if only a suitable figure of that bloodline could be found, because “The north remembers . . . .”

The T.V. show’s portrayal, however, renders the idea that “The north remembers . . .” utterly meaningless. For example, in the show, none of the things holding back the Manderlys from openly acting exist: Wylis (who does not appear) is not being held hostage, there are no Freys or other Lannister spies watching them for signs of betrayal, and not one, but two members of the Stark family are in open defiance of the Boltons and asking for the Manderlys’ support. Yet, the Manderlys refuse the call, never mind having made any secret preparations to aid the Stark cause in the interim. 

The Glovers also refuse the call, with Robett Glover citing the failure of King Robb Stark to aid him during the Ironborn’s attack on Deepwood Motte, Robb’s ill-conceived marriage to Talisa Maegyr, the Bolton’s assistance in retaking Deepwood Motte, the Wildlings in Jon and Sansa’s army, and Jon and Sansa’s lack of support from other houses, as justification. Even if we accept that some of these reasons may be somewhat compelling, this refusal still stands in complete contradiction to the principle that “The north remembers . . .” by Robett allowing his petty, personal quarrels and other extremely recent events to trump the broader Bolton betrayal of the Northern cause and the Glovers’ thousand-year history of loyalty towards House Stark. 

Finally, the refusal of House Cerwyn to answer the call is perhaps the most incomprehensible, given the T.V. show’s changes from the books. In Episode 3 of Season 5 (“High Sparrow”), we learn that Lord Cley Cerwyn’s father, Medger Cerwyn, refused to pay taxes to the Boltons, instead declaring House Cerwyn’s eternal loyalty to the Starks and denouncing the Boltons as traitors. In retaliation, Ramsay had Medger, as well as Cley’s mother and brother, all flayed while forcing Cley to watch. Yes, we can justify the Cerwyns’ failure to answer the call out of fear, but once again, doing so makes the entire notion that “The north remembers . . . ,” as well as the sacrifice of Lord Cley’s father, mother, and brother for the Stark cause, worthless and empty.

Instead, all three houses only declare their allegiance to Jon and Sansa after the Boltons have already been completely defeated. Thus, when Lady Mormont proudly declares that “The north remembers . . . ,” in truth, only Houses Mormont, Hornwood, and Mazin can make this claim (which is truly ironic in House Mormont’s case, given that Lady Mormont is only ten years old). The other Northern houses may remember, but they all chose to do nothing, which is against everything for which that “The north remembers . . .” is supposed to stand. In addition, like with the Dornish plot, this was completely avoidable. The Manderlys would probably not have made it to the Battle of the Bastards in time given the distance from White Harbor to Winterfell, while the addition of House Glover’s decimated forces and whatever troops House Cerwyn could provide, would not have changed how the Battle of the Bastards played out regardless. Therefore, while this scene is still stirring through its callback to the declaration of Robb as the King in the North, it, unfortunately and unnecessarily, does a complete disservice to one of the great lines of the books.

[Kytheros]

I have to believe that the showrunners started writing the Northern storyline for season six with the ending of the battle of the bastards - the Vale riding in to save the day, when the Stark cause is on the verge of utter annihilation. And thus they butchered things that had already been established about the North in the show, not just in the books, in order to get to the thing they wanted.

By any reasonable standard of expectation, based on what the show had given us before this season, even accounting for all the simplifications, it would have been the Boltons and the Karstarks, radically outnumbered by the rest of the North, plus the wildlings, all fighting for the Starks.

 

And, as far as the Glovers retaking Deepwood Motte goes, early this season, Roose Bolton mentioned that the Glovers had retaken Deepwood Motte on their own or with other non-Bolton Northern support, and that that should be an additional cause for concern - that the other Northern Houses were starting to recover and rise again, and it wouldn't be long before they started looking for an excuse to rally around against the Boltons.

 

 

I find more disappointment in the Northern storyline than I do with this season's Dornish ending and alliance with Olenna and Dany via Varys. The Dornish "reveal" with Olenna and Varys at least keeps to established character consistency and show continuity, as long as we don't pay attention to travel times for news and people. I would've preferred a Dornish arc much closer to the books, but for the Dornish arc that the show had, the "Fire and Blood" scene at least didn't butcher things that had been established the way they did in the North - it was absolutely a waste of Doran Martell's character, and the potential for an arc closer to the books. Dorne was a disappointment mostly because it could have been so much better, not because it was unrecognizable - I mean, they had basically ditched everything from the book Dorne after Oberyn, and did entirely their own thing for all of Dorne.
The North and Northern characters just got twisted beyond all recognition, or almost so, and they'd started fairly close to the book and stayed fairly close to the books for the North except for replacing fArya with Sansa and then they just expected us to have forgotten everything that had ever been said about the North and the Northern Houses for this season, even when Roose says the North with rise for Sansa against us.

[NutBurz]

If people marched to their own death over a sentence then the story would be bad.

And Doran being lord of Dorne without any public acceptance is contradictory however honorable he is in secret.

[TepidHands]

Don't forget, my friends, the omission of the "broken man" speech. So many wonderful, deeply profound monologues. But we had time for a warty cock scene, and a finger in someone's unwilling butt. 

This "adaptation" is fallen to parody.

[bfin]

Guess what?? Books obviously have more details!! The show is 10 episodes that run 55 minutes apiece. Just enjoy the fact that they made a successful tv show out of your favorite book series. Most fans don't get this lucky

[Zorral]

I always believed that foremost what is meant by "The North remembers," is Winter.  The North is the great defense against what comes at Westros periodically from behind the Wall.  The South never remembers, but the North does, particularly do the Starks, which makes them the most faithful of all the Houses.

 

[JonSnow4President]

20 minutes ago, bfin said:

Guess what?? Books obviously have more details!! The show is 10 episodes that run 55 minutes apiece. Just enjoy the fact that they made a successful tv show out of your favorite book series. Most fans don't get this lucky

I don't care a rats ass about how much money they make, but this isn't my favorite book story.  There's some characters named the same, that act similar once in a blue moon, and do sort of similar stuff sometimes, but it's not the story.  Anyone who can look at this hot mess and see "The North Remembers" is lying to themselves.

[bfin]

48 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I don't care a rats ass about how much money they make, but this isn't my favorite book story.  There's some characters named the same, that act similar once in a blue moon, and do sort of similar stuff sometimes, but it's not the story.  Anyone who can look at this hot mess and see "The North Remembers" is lying to themselves.

Correct you are. It's an adaptation. When your boy finishes the last two books in 20 years, we will see how bad they messed this up. Until then you can complain about the Umbers, travel times, Dorne, and Asha. Probably should just read the books so I can be a cynic too

[JonSnow4President]

1 minute ago, bfin said:

Correct you are. It's an adaptation. When your boy finishes the last two books in 20 years, we will see how bad they messed this up. Until then you can complain about the Umbers, travel times, Dorne, and Asha. Probably should just read the books so I can be a cynic too

My point is that this isn't an adaptation of it.  It's a whole lot of nothing.  Show me where they show any of the spirit of "The North Remembers" or "The Last Winter" and I'll change my stance (not versions of the monologues, just the basic heart of many Northern Lords). But you won't be able to, because nothing is just nothing.

[Ruhail]

Agreed. I dont know why they bothered to name that lord Wyman Manderly if he was only canon fodder for female Olly. Call him anything else and i would have phased it out but whatever they always do stuff like this urghh

[Dragonslack]

This yes, but also a million other things and a dozen other threads.

Visuals, drama and whatever the critics complain about (like boobs  so warted cock or mysoginist so all power to the women this season).

If that helps think more of theatre drama or a musical or opera.

They could have done much better as sometimes is the case? Yes in theory but they dont have to bother because the ratings are there anyway. No because they dont have the talent and are off the books.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

Tbh I thought Doran's speech was awesome in AFFC, like this guy's got a plan y'all. But then I read ADWD and realized his plan was actually pretty stupid and underwhelming. So that sort of ruined it for me. 

[RoamingRonin]

1 hour ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Tbh I thought Doran's speech was awesome in AFFC, like this guy's got a plan y'all. But then I read ADWD and realized his plan was actually pretty stupid and underwhelming. So that sort of ruined it for me. 

Exactly. Book readers should catch on to that.

These fist pumping moments never amount to anything satisfying. They feel good in the moment, sure, do they accomplish anything? Doran's "fire and blood" line ends with Quentyn's death. Wyman Manderly's "the north remembers" ends with him getting his chins sliced open. Maribald's speech was GRRM beating a dead horse about the horrors of war.

I can understand wanting to see them adapted on screen. But at least understand what GRRM is doing when he writes these scenes.

[Rory Snow]

6 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

I don't care a rats ass about how much money they make, but this isn't my favorite book story.  There's some characters named the same, that act similar once in a blue moon, and do sort of similar stuff sometimes, but it's not the story.  Anyone who can look at this hot mess and see "The North Remembers" is lying to themselves.

It could be worse... you could be a huge fan of Lee Child's Jack Reacher book series only to see the movie moguls cast half midget Tom "Tyrion" Cruise as the 6'5" 250lb former Army badass Reacher... that horse never left the barn

[Mladen]

7 hours ago, bfin said:

Guess what?? Books obviously have more details!! The show is 10 episodes that run 55 minutes apiece. Just enjoy the fact that they made a successful tv show out of your favorite book series. Most fans don't get this lucky

Lucky? One of the most ground-breaking fantasy series has been transformed into a full-of-cliches-and-cheap-moments series. One only need to use a brain for a split of a second to see many different flaws of their writing. And their poor adaptation skills are the least of the problem. You can't bring the nuance of many characters? OK... One can forgive those things. But, you can't write logically compact story where each action has its purpose and is actually meaningful? That is far bigger issue.

"Game of thrones" is a pop phenomenon. It is undoubtedly one of those things that will mark the TV of this decade. But, eventually, it shall be forgotten. Just like with all pop culture phenomena, like Cersei, another will come and it will be forgotten. 

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

1 hour ago, RoamingRonin said:

Exactly. Book readers should catch on to that.

These fist pumping moments never amount to anything satisfying. They feel good in the moment, sure, do they accomplish anything? Doran's "fire and blood" line ends with Quentyn's death. Wyman Manderly's "the north remembers" ends with him getting his chins sliced open. Maribald's speech was GRRM beating a dead horse about the horrors of war.

I can understand wanting to see them adapted on screen. But at least understand what GRRM is doing when he writes these scenes.

Doran's speech shouldn't be rousing knowing how Quentyn ended up. It's just like show Ellaria, he who goes looking for vengeance must dig two graves, etc. Sure, there's a slight surprise when Doran is revealed to be a "player" but then that reveal is undercut by his incompetence so we're back at square one. 

And yes, the "Broken Men" monologue is vastly overrated IMHO. It's basically GRRM spelling out the "theme" of AFFC for the millionth time and it basically amounts to "war = bad." That said, I wasn't a fan of Septon Ray's sermon either but it pretty much said the same thing. 

My only problem with Arya serving the pie is the logistics involved but I can suspend my disbelief for that. And I actually liked that the Freys who went into the pie were sort of like the masterminds behind the Red Wedding and the murderers of Catelyn and Talisa instead of some random tertiary Freys. 

 

[Mikeygigs]

 

1 hour ago, RoamingRonin said:

Exactly. Book readers should catch on to that.

These fist pumping moments never amount to anything satisfying. They feel good in the moment, sure, do they accomplish anything? Doran's "fire and blood" line ends with Quentyn's death. Wyman Manderly's "the north remembers" ends with him getting his chins sliced open. Maribald's speech was GRRM beating a dead horse about the horrors of war.

I can understand wanting to see them adapted on screen. But at least understand what GRRM is doing when he writes these scenes.

Do you understand what GRRM is doing?

Doran...

Spoiler

...sent out the sand snakes to infiltrate both King's Landing and Oldtown, and also sent out Arianne to scope out Aegon.

Prior to this he sent Oberyn to King's Landing who may or may not have poisoned Tywin Lannister. Was he clinching his bets on Quentyn? Sounded like it, but it seemed like the overarching theme of his plan was: patience, and wait until an opportune moment to strike at the Lannisters. Seems like he's making moves in that direction now.

Wyman Manderly's plot is far from certain. We do not know what he'll do, if he'll do anything at all. Its not published yet, so this is legitimately up in the air. But that said, his 'north remembers' speech ends with him sending out Davos to bring back Rickon, and serving Frey-pies at Ramsay Bolton's wedding. It seems likely that he will strike at the Bolton's and Freys when he can.

Maribald's speech was not beating a dead horse about the horrors of war. Its one of the only perspectives from a common soldier we get in the entire series. Indeed, while the series is full of examples where the smallfolk suffer, this is one of the only times we get a firsthand account of what its like to be a common soldier in one of the armies of one of the lords, and just as importantly it also challenges the ideas of what broken men are - not merely cowards and bandits, but real people who are forced to endure massive hardship many times in service to causes they don't even understand.

Maribald's speech is pretty important, and while I can understand people waving away Doran's plan, I cannot help but think you have missed the point if you got nothing out of it besides 'GRRM is beating a dead horse.'

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

4 minutes ago, Mikeygigs said:

 

Do you understand what GRRM is doing?

Doran...

  Hide contents

...sent out the sand snakes to infiltrate both King's Landing and Oldtown, and also sent out Arianne to scope out Aegon.

Prior to this he sent Oberyn to King's Landing who may or may not have poisoned Tywin Lannister. Was he clinching his bets on Quentyn? Sounded like it, but it seemed like the overarching theme of his plan was: patience, and wait until an opportune moment to strike at the Lannisters. Seems like he's making moves in that direction now.

Actually no. He didn't send Sarella to Oldtown as far as we know (he says she's playing her own game), sending Arianne to scope out Aegon is a ridiculously bad plan because if he turns out to be fake or something he can hold her hostage to get Dorne's troops, and he only sent the Sand Snakes to infiltrate KL after everything with Myrcella went to shit because of him. And we even have GRRM telling us through Barristan that Doran's plans aren't working because he waited far too much and kept things way too close to the chest. 

[Desert Fox]

I'm a pretty big show apologist but the show missed a big opportunity for North Remembers. Just have Manderly join up with Jon. It would have shown that many in the North still supported Stark.

Fire and Blood was a sorta cool way to end a chapter, but it's way overblown. The way the show used it was cool too, but I get that it's sort of pissing on the book dorne characters. I would have had Doran kill the Sand Snakes in Ep 1 and have Doran be the one allying with Dany. Either way Dorne sucks and Doran's "plans"  are terrible.

[Mikeygigs]

1 minute ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Actually no. He didn't send Sarella to Oldtown as far as we know (he says she's playing her own game), sending Arianne to scope out Aegon is a ridiculously bad plan because if he turns out to be fake or something he can hold her hostage to get Dorne's troops, and he only sent the Sand Snakes to infiltrate KL after everything with Myrcella went to shit because of him. And we even have GRRM telling us through Barristan that Doran's plans aren't working because he waited far too much and kept things way too close to the chest. 

Fair point about Sarella.

Eh, we also have GRRM telling us through a quote by GRRM that, 'Doran plays to win.' 

When Myrcella was maimed by Dark Star he altered his plan to strike at the Lannisters, but still advocated patience and caution. Doran does not have a master plan. He is simply awaiting opportunities, and moving whatever pieces he can on a board towards his eventual goal. Does the maiming of Myrcella change things? Yeah, sure, but it did not disrupt some specific master plan. Doran is exploiting opportunities when he can to eventually revenge himself on the Lannisters.

Also, Arianne being a hostage does not mean Dorne rides to war - it means that Dorne cannot oppose Aegon. That opens up tons of other problems for Aegon, anyway, most problematic of which is making Doran Martell his enemy.

In any case, and as I've said in previous reply, of the three speeches mentioned in the original comment I can see why readers find this plot to be unsatisfying.