rayarts Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 The point isn't even comparing the Dorne plot and GNC to the books! The problem is, that even as a show by itself, there are too many mistakes and sluggish writing at this point, to still match the quality of the first seasons. I know there are overwhelmingly many viewers out there who either don't see or don't care about logical plot and character development, consistency and stuff like that. But I do. That's what I measure quality with. Major plotlines and bazillion character' actions have been bent so that they fit into what D&D see as appropriate. But they just struggle to manage the huge amount of plotlines and characters at this point. They cut many things ridiculously short, but still give us unnecessary scenes (for those who complain that "the TV show's got to be shorter blah blah" - if they have time management issues, why bother with stupid, unnecessary scenes then? Oh right, because we need these "awesome shockers" like a finger in the butt). When looking just at the show, most of the Dorne plot could have just been left out, if it was supposed to end this way. Myrcella could have died differently, Jamie never had to go there, Doran wasn't necessary, it could have been revenge from the get-go. Especially, since there were so many flaws (and bad acting, gosh, Failsnakes fight...). The North remembers... not. The whole Norht loyalty is portrayed as weakly and uncertain just as Jon seems to be by now. There is nothing great about it at all. Just as Sandra is NOTHING like a Stark anymore, so is the behaviour of almost all ppl in the north mostly pathetic and inconsistent. It's really juts a hot mess and it comes only together at the main fix points of the book, that cannot be changed. But everything else is just so random. I wish I could enjoy the show as I did before, but I cannot. It dropped the ball and falls short of being a great show by now. But as someone else before mentioned - at this point it doesn't matter. They have all the glory of the first four seasons to rest on, so they can deliver whatever by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiceBorn Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 GCabot is right. What else can I say? Well Doran perhaps... he plotted his vengeance so long that the people involved started to die out. This would not sit with mass audience, there would be memes and general laugh. Kind of understand why they cut Dorne if they cut fAegon too. But it sucks none the less. And for the north there is no excuse. None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TepidHands Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 hour ago, TwiceBorn said: GCabot is right. What else can I say? Well Doran perhaps... he plotted his vengeance so long that the people involved started to die out. This would not sit with mass audience, there would be memes and general laugh. Kind of understand why they cut Dorne if they cut fAegon too. But it sucks none the less. And for the north there is no excuse. None. Except they didn't cut Dorne. It featured prominently in Season 5 and for one episode in Season 6, in which the group of bastard women got revenge on dead relatives by killing some more relatives. The Dorne they showed degenerated into memes and general laughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiceBorn Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 52 minutes ago, TepidHands said: Except they didn't cut Dorne. It featured prominently in Season 5 and for one episode in Season 6, in which the group of bastard women got revenge on dead relatives by killing some more relatives. The Dorne they showed degenerated into memes and general laughter. You are right. If someone is a fan of book-Dorne then bad pussy is just as bad as North-by-Northwest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Halstein Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 On 2016-06-28 at 11:17 PM, GCabot said: Instead, all three houses only declare their allegiance to Jon and Sansa after the Boltons have already been completely defeated. Thus, when Lady Mormont proudly declares that “The north remembers . . . ,” in truth, only Houses Mormont, Hornwood, and Mazin can make this claim (which is truly ironic in House Mormont’s case, given that Lady Mormont is only ten years old). The other Northern houses may remember, but they all chose to do nothing, which is against everything for which that “The north remembers . . .” is supposed to stand. Excellent effortpoast GCabot, and you're right of course. Giving that line to Varys instead of the king with his revealed brilliant, patient planning, was such a dud for those who have read the books and know what could have been. I loved that scene in the books with the king. When you learn that what had looked like weakness was actually the smartest plan for revenge of all. And as for the North, yes, what a letdown. I kept hoping the Manderleys would join the fray on the Starks' side. Give the Manderleys SOMETHING after you've taken away the Frey Pie that was in the books (killing two Freys and serving them to the Boltons, Freys and other bandits). Instead we got a North saved only by the Vale. Heck, even the small army's planning was ruined by their commander rushing the enemy cavalry all by himself, forcing his own side to abandon their entrenched position to come and save him. Is this the North, which withstood the Andal Invasion for thousands of years while the South fell, only bending the knee when the Targaryens came with their dragons? I didn't like it. They should put Lady Mormont in charge of the northern armies, she seems more capable than most of that lot. Though I hope they get a chance to redeem themselves by fighting the dead next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinfoilToolate Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 On 6/29/2016 at 7:06 PM, bfin said: Guess what?? Books obviously have more details!! The show is 10 episodes that run 55 minutes apiece. Just enjoy the fact that they made a successful tv show out of your favorite book series. Most fans don't get this lucky This is what i have to remind myself constantly. I have rewatched and analyzed the series as a whole as well as each individual, episode several times over. Just from a cinematography perspective, the production quality is absolutely incredible, and by far the best in its genre of medieval/fantasy film/tv shows. Now if you want to compare it to the books, i do think they have stayed as true as any film based interpretation of books have been. And to their credit, they produce MUCH more in a much less amount of time, than GRRM. That said, of course i have major complaints, many of which are shared with the majority of our fellow posters, but think of this: The differences we dislike about the show and the books, only serve to reinforce and enhance our enjoyment in reading the books, and is a true testament to GRRM. As incredible as the show is, Martin is that much better of a writer. There are many elements from the books that the show writers were having a difficult time with given the already massively spread out narrative, and because of those things they realize the later implications. The butterfly effects alone make the comparison even more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkerStar Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Why include the lines if you have removed the plot? When the old lady told Sandra that "the North remembers" in season 5 I assumed it was going to be an introduction to Northern scheming to right the wrongs done to them by the Boltons. Instead we had a bunch of Lords who, if the had not outright joined the Boltons, had resigned themselves to Bolton rule. And giving Doran's best speech to the insufferable C-word who murdered him, all the while showing that they really had no plan for the Dornish plot they created was a farce. Seeks like the inclusion of those lines in this way was just to get book fans to say yay book stuff while ignoring the themes that made those lines impactful. I'm with you OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 16 hours ago, TwiceBorn said: You are right. If someone is a fan of book-Dorne then bad pussy is just as bad as North-by-Northwest. And if someone isn't a fan of the books, bad pussy is much, much worse. Both of my son-in-laws haven't read the books and both of their responses to Dorne have been laughter. One thinks its some of the funniest TV he's seen, although he realizes it wasn't meant to be. The other laughs at the pretentiousness of what he considers basically soft core porn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCabot Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 On 6/29/2016 at 7:06 PM, bfin said: Guess what?? Books obviously have more details!! The show is 10 episodes that run 55 minutes apiece. Just enjoy the fact that they made a successful tv show out of your favorite book series. Most fans don't get this lucky But that is part of the point I tried to make - it was completely unnecessary for D. & D. to give us this milquetoast version - it was not done out of necessity due to time constraints. There is no reason why the Dornish plot could not be in the same place as it is now with Doran alive. There is also no reason why the Northern plot could not be in the same place as it is now with the Northern houses declaring their support for the Starks prior to the Battle of the Bastards. Truthfully, it feels like D. & D. made these choices simply to reinforce the female-empowerment narrative of this season, and emphasize the importance of Ellaria Sand, the Sand Snakes, Sansa, and Lady Mormont. While I have no problem with this theme so long as it makes sense in the broader story line, the way D. & D. went about it makes it feel like they used a narrative cudgel, rather than a scalpel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 There really is nothing that will convince you people that "The North Remembers" doesn´t mean "The North is the Stark´s slaves". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 What I don't get is why people think Doran saying "Vengeance, Justice, Fire and Blood" is so zomg awesome when the same people generally HAAAAAATE it when Dany (or I guess anyone else really) says anything similar. So glad the show killed him, I was literally giggling with glee in episode 1. Meanwhile Varys is a total badass in the show so I was very happy for him to say Fire and Blood. However there is obviously going to be trouble with Elaria and Tyrion next season so I'm a little concerned with Varys making this alliance. Bitch personally killed his niece... And she is totally despicable and dangerous to have as an ally - I wonder if there is some way to take her out. Maybe Dany will have a trial for the murder of Myrcella. I wish more of the North had been on Team!Jon and Sansa, but Lyanna Mormont is great so I don't mind too much. But, if we pull ourselves out of the books completely, I think the explanations for the North's actions that the show came up with make a lot of sense and it's actually interesting / a little odd that they haven't come up in the books. Why should the North follow a deserter from the NW at the head of an army of the North's greatest ancestral enemy (wildlings), and his traitor sister who married not one but TWO of the North's enemies? Some of the Northerners join with Stannis in the books because they believe that the Boltons have kidnapped and forcibly married Arya Stark. That's not enough for Manderley, who is believes that Rickon is free. And meanwhile some of the northern lords are already ultimately planning to crown Jon Snow because of Robb's will. In the show there is no forced marriage. There is no Robb's Will. Rickon is a captive of a northern house (Umber) that loathes the Wildlings. Jon is a traitor and Oathbreaker. It's just plain different. I think the one thing that will be similar with the books is that there will eventually be a battle of bastards and the Vale (with Sansa) will rescue Jon (Stannis?) from otherwise certain defeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 3 hours ago, NutBurz said: There really is nothing that will convince you people that "The North Remembers" doesn´t mean "The North is the Stark´s slaves". But the North rose for the Starks in the end, as was always obvious they would....it's only that the show cut out the meaning of same by making the Northern lords worthless, cowardly, disloyal assholes who are loyal to whomever is winning at any given time, so the rah rah scene of Jon being named King in the North means exactly nothing in the show... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: But the North rose for the Starks in the end, as was always obvious they would....it's only that the show cut out the meaning of same by making the Northern lords worthless, cowardly, disloyal assholes who are loyal to whomever is winning at any given time, so the rah rah scene of Jon being named King in the North means exactly nothing in the show... Actually The North is not "loyal to whoever is winning at he time". They chose Roose and later Ramsey Bolton over a nights watch oathbreaker at the head of an army of foreign invaders and his traitor sister who appears to them as a pawn of the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said: Actually The North is not "loyal to whoever is winning at he time". They chose Roose and later Ramsey Bolton over a nights watch oathbreaker at the head of an army of foreign invaders and his traitor sister who appears to them as a pawn of the Lannisters. Then why did they do a 180 and name Jon King in the North if he's an oathbreaker and she's a traitor unless they only want to support the winners? And I remind you that they chose Ramsay: a kinslayer, a child killer, a liege lord killer, a torturer.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: Then why did they do a 180 and name Jon King in the North if he's an oathbreaker and she's a traitor unless they only want to support the winners? And I remind you that they chose Ramsay: a kinslayer, a child killer, a liege lord killer, a torturer.... Most of them chose Roose, not Ramsey. As for accepting Jon after he won, by that time they had seen: 1) Ramsey murder Rickon Stark 2) Jon bravely standing up to the entire Bolton army and surviving and 3) Sansa rescuing her family from certain death at the head of the Vale army. They also witnessed the Wildlings fighting bravely, not raping and pillaging - as mentioned in ep 10 "we meet our friends on the battlefield". Small jon Umber is the most treacherous by far because he only pledged to house Bolton after Roose was murdered and despite knowing Ramsey did it. Karstark is kind of weak but he was already "in" when he witnessed Ramsey murder Roose. We don't know for sure but Umbrr may have been wiped out. I would personally love it if Tormund is granted Last Hearth (Giantsband, bitches)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said: Most of them chose Roose, not Ramsey. As for accepting Jon after he won, by that time they had seen: 1) Ramsey murder Rickon Stark 2) Jon bravely standing up to the entire Bolton army and surviving and 3) Sansa rescuing her family from certain death at the head of the Vale army. They also witnessed the Wildlings fighting bravely, not raping and pillaging - as mentioned in ep 10 "we meet our friends on the battlefield". Small jon Umber is the most treacherous by far because he only pledged to house Bolton after Roose was murdered and despite knowing Ramsey did it. Karstark is kind of weak but he was already "in" when he witnessed Ramsey murder Roose. We don't know for sure but Umbrr may have been wiped out. I would personally love it if Tormund is granted Last Hearth (Giantsband, bitches)! Indeed, you say? They chose Roose, the architect of the RW and the man who orchestrated the deaths of their families over the Starks. Yes they did. Insanity to pro actively choose such a person as your leader. Of course, if you recall, Roose didn't believe he had the support of the Northern lords, he thought they would rise for the Starks, poor guy, he was mistaken I guess, he didn't know what cowards the Northern lords were, LMAO. Sorry, we will have to disagree here, it seems to me that you are rationalizing the irrational actions of the Northern lords in the show. Who, first, irrationally supported the Boltons over the Starks...and then, presto chango, remembered they had supported the Starks for 1000 years and supported the Starks again. It's asinine. Just like I knew it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Irrational is to ignore that GRRM himself wrote about thousands and thousands of northerners who would gain nothing directly from the Red Wedding but still obeyed the order to butcher their allies. Northerners are not saints, and being born in Bolton lands doesn´t make the people be or think any different from anywhere else in the North. If GRRM writes about northerners betraying the Stark trust to the point of murdering betrayal for more realistic, human reasons than just "the North Remembers", then D&D can write about northerners betraying the Stark trust by omission in a hopeless battle for self-preservation. Really opportunistic people would not recognize the almost defeated Jon Snow as their King. They´d have not shown up till the Vale Knights returned home and then seized power from the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tormond Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 On 6/29/2016 at 11:17 PM, Risto said: Lucky? One of the most ground-breaking fantasy series has been transformed into a full-of-cliches-and-cheap-moments series. One only need to use a brain for a split of a second to see many different flaws of their writing. And their poor adaptation skills are the least of the problem. You can't bring the nuance of many characters? OK... One can forgive those things. But, you can't write logically compact story where each action has its purpose and is actually meaningful? That is far bigger issue. "Game of thrones" is a pop phenomenon. It is undoubtedly one of those things that will mark the TV of this decade. But, eventually, it shall be forgotten. Just like with all pop culture phenomena, like Cersei, another will come and it will be forgotten. Can you tell me a fantasy tv show that has stood the test of time?. I'll even grant you to tell any fantasy movie that has stood the test of time. If you say lord of the ring, be advised that lord of the ring movies changed a lot of things from the book., also it didnt stand the test of time. In terms of TV shows, we are in an era where shows are not given enough time to evolve. If you dont get high ratings right away and consistently, you are canceled. So you should understand that shows dont have all the time to evolve conspiracies and complicated storylines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjlxking Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Whether characters would like to admit it or not, it all comes down to vengeance. Like the Spectre from DC said the difference between justice and vengeance is emotion. With that said, all the characters in the book and show are motivated by their desire to enact vengeance on those who wronged them. Dany= wants the iron throne because the "usurpers" took it from her. Jon= wanted to kill Bolton because they betrayed the north. there is no justice when everyone has a difference sense of moral. You call it justice to free slaves but killing people because they don't share your view point is justice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjlxking Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 37 minutes ago, tormond said: Can you tell me a fantasy tv show that has stood the test of time?. I'll even grant you to tell any fantasy movie that has stood the test of time. If you say lord of the ring, be advised that lord of the ring movies changed a lot of things from the book., also it didnt stand the test of time. In terms of TV shows, we are in an era where shows are not given enough time to evolve. If you dont get high ratings right away and consistently, you are canceled. So you should understand that shows dont have all the time to evolve conspiracies and complicated storylines Lord of the rings changed a lot of stuff from the novels yes but it stood the test of time Google best fantasy movies and lord of the rings will be one of the top ones. Google highest rated movies, or trilogies and it will be the top. the movie used a lot of camera work/angles and make up so it will withstand the cgi burn out that most movies receive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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