How Jaqen got Pate to kill himself.

[The Sleeper]

I know I'm not the only one who was confounded the prologue of Feast. Specifically why Jaqen murders Pate when we are told that the FM do not kill of their own initiative as a matter of basic doctrine and why did he go through the whole song and dance routine instead of ambushing him in an alley.

I think that in a way that is both very simple and a very convoluted rationalization, the latter is the way to get around the former. Simply put, Jaqen at no point takes any direct action that causes Pate's death. He finds out that Pate would do anything for Rosey so he presents him the temptation of the dragon. He couldn't just give it to him, because that would be killing him. So he gives him the option of taking the dragon himself in exchange for the key. Having Pate name himself a thief works as establishing Pate's own initiative in taking the dragon. You will note that Jaqen never tells him to do anything and even at the end does not give Pate the coin, but plays with it causing him to snatch it impatiently out of his hand. 

One cannot help but notice the raging hypocrisy as well as the kind of lateral thinking the FM are capable of. And while Jaqen is certainly responsible for Pate's death, Pate could have avoided his fate by simply doing nothing.

[Dorian Martell]

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Specifically why Jaqen murders Pate when we are told that the FM do not kill of their own initiative as a matter of basic doctrine and why did he go through the whole song and dance routine instead of ambushing him in an alley.

 

One cannot help but notice the raging hypocrisy as well as the kind of lateral thinking the FM are capable of. And while Jaqen is certainly responsible for Pate's death, Pate could have avoided his fate by simply doing nothing.

Why do you assume pate's death wasn't part of a plan. the FM needed Pate's face, so he had to die. Seems pretty straight forward really 

[Damon_Tor]

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

we are told that the FM do not kill of their own initiative as a matter of basic doctrine

You're misinterpreting the doctrine. A Faceless Man is a blank slate, a vessel for the Many Faced God. He has no initiative of his own because he has no self. Anyone a Faceless Man intends to kill has, in fact, been approved for death by the Many Faced God. Faceless men are not simple acolytes of a death cult.

Arya is something different. Her skin-changing abilities allow her to act as a vessel for the Many Faced God without giving up her self because her self is distributed across several beings.

[Jon Fossoway]

So how did he died? Cardiac arrest? 

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

Why do you assume pate's death wasn't part of a plan. the FM needed Pate's face, so he had to die. Seems pretty straight forward really 

What does have to do with anything? The question is why didn't he simply kill Pate by stabbing him or any of the hundred ways he could have done it. The answer is because their practice forbids them to pick and choose who dies. So he went about it in a rounabout way.

 

34 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

So how did he died? Cardiac arrest? 

The poison the coin was coated with?

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

You're misinterpreting the doctrine. A Faceless Man is a blank slate, a vessel for the Many Faced God. He has no initiative of his own because he has no self. Anyone a Faceless Man intends to kill has, in fact, been approved for death by the Many Faced God. Faceless men are not simple acolytes of a death cult.

Arya is something different. Her skin-changing abilities allow her to act as a vessel for the Many Faced God without giving up her self because her self is distributed across several beings.

I' m not. You are assuming actual divine revelation if I understand you correctly.

[Light a wight tonight]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

What does have to do with anything? The question is why didn't he simply kill Pate by stabbing him or any of the hundred ways he could have done it. The answer is because their practice forbids them to pick and choose who dies. So he went about it in a rounabout way.

 

You assume that "Jaqen" is a straightforward FM operative. This is not necessarily the case. He may be a rogue or working on a higher level than the normal FM do. He isn't on a an assignment of giving the gift of death to anyone, unless he's the one who did Balon Greyjoy. He's at the Citadel to gain access to the archives, and for that he needs the key. 

And as to why he didn't knife Pate, you could as easily ask why he took such devious means to carry out the killings Arya requested. Feeding Weese's dog manticore blood? Straightforward murder isn't his style.  

[Guest jasonothegreat]

Well... I'm a little behind 

Pate was alive at the end of AFFC so he didn't die?

The dude who gave him the coin was Jaqn H'ghar???

Didn't Pate Disappear into Darkness?

 

But Pate wasn't an FM he was a practicing Maester???

What did I miss??? 

[Damon_Tor]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

You are assuming actual divine revelation if I understand you correctly.

Not exactly.

When people die at the hands of a Faceless Man, the Faceless Men take their soul and add it to a gestalt consciousness. The Faceless men are puppets of said consciousness. "Wearing a face" is a metaphor like "Skin Changing"... Wargs don't actually wear the skin of a wolf. Neither do the Faceless Men literally wear a face. The two are actually very similar.

[gregg22]

16 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I know I'm not the only one who was confounded the prologue of Feast. Specifically why murders Pate when we are told that the FM do not kill of their own initiative as a matter of basic doctrine 

 

Not sure that I agree with this premise. They really havnt shown that it matters who lives and who dies and who decides.

The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.

-Jaqen to Arya

 

Here he lets a little girl pick three names, he doesn't care who, nor does the many faced god. Then she cuts a deal for the third for help escaping, so he doesn't even "give the red god his due". My gut tells me it was all about recruiting Arya, and the rest was BS.

The rules are alot more loose than hey seem

 

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, jasonothegreat said:

Well... I'm a little behind 

Pate was alive at the end of AFFC so he didn't die?

The dude who gave him the coin was Jaqn H'ghar???

Didn't Pate Disappear into Darkness?

 

But Pate wasn't an FM he was a practicing Maester???

What did I miss??? 

Jaquen killed Pate via poison coin and assumed his identity. We see Jaquen as Pate near the end of AFFC.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

6 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Why do you assume pate's death wasn't part of a plan. the FM needed Pate's face, so he had to die. Seems pretty straight forward really 

I agree, FM could have easily been hired to infiltrate the Citadel, and Pate was just the means to their end. 

 

17 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I know I'm not the only one who was confounded the prologue of Feast. Specifically why Jaqen murders Pate when we are told that the FM do not kill of their own initiative as a matter of basic doctrine and why did he go through the whole song and dance routine instead of ambushing him in an alley.

Arya is only a novice, with only a novice's level of training. I doubt she had been let in on all the ins and outs of the Code of the Faceless Men. Just because Arya is told she cannot kill of her own initiative does not necessarily mean it is forbidden to all FM, especially if the seemingly unauthorized killing is related to some other goal. 

As far as why Jaqen did not just ambush Pate in an alley, how would Jaqen have convinced Pate to walk down a dark alley? He needed the "whole song and dance routine" in order to separate Pate from the others. Pate needed to be killed in the most non-damaging way possible, otherwise Jaqen-Pate would have spent the next several days explaining what had happened to him, and there would have been even more questions when his injuries didn't heal. 

[The Sleeper]

6 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

You assume that "Jaqen" is a straightforward FM operative. This is not necessarily the case. He may be a rogue or working on a higher level than the normal FM do. He isn't on a an assignment of giving the gift of death to anyone, unless he's the one who did Balon Greyjoy. He's at the Citadel to gain access to the archives, and for that he needs the key. 

And as to why he didn't knife Pate, you could as easily ask why he took such devious means to carry out the killings Arya requested. Feeding Weese's dog manticore blood? Straightforward murder isn't his style.  

The only assumption I am making is that Pate' s death is the means to an end rather than the end. Whether he is a rogue or not is debatable, however the way he caused Pate's death leads to believe that he adheres to the tennets of the FM as taught to Arya.

As to the way he killed Chiswyck and Weese, both appeared as accidents, which considering he was in an armed camp he had very good reasons to make them appear so.

5 hours ago, gregg22 said:

 

Not sure that I agree with this premise. They really havnt shown that it matters who lives and who dies and who decides.

The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.

-Jaqen to Arya

 

Here he lets a little girl pick three names, he doesn't care who, nor does the many faced god. Then she cuts a deal for the third for help escaping, so he doesn't even "give the red god his due". My gut tells me it was all about recruiting Arya, and the rest was BS.

The rules are alot more loose than hey seem

 

I don't see how that proves your point. I agree that he is recruiting Arya, but still she's the one who is picking who dies as well as creating the blood debt in the first place. If the rules are loose this isn't such a case. There is nothing inconsistent here with what Arya has been taught.

 

4 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

I agree, FM could have easily been hired to infiltrate the Citadel, and Pate was just the means to their end. 

 

Arya is only a novice, with only a novice's level of training. I doubt she had been let in on all the ins and outs of the Code of the Faceless Men. Just because Arya is told she cannot kill of her own initiative does not necessarily mean it is forbidden to all FM, especially if the seemingly unauthorized killing is related to some other goal. 

As far as why Jaqen did not just ambush Pate in an alley, how would Jaqen have convinced Pate to walk down a dark alley? He needed the "whole song and dance routine" in order to separate Pate from the others. Pate needed to be killed in the most non-damaging way possible, otherwise Jaqen-Pate would have spent the next several days explaining what had happened to him, and there would have been even more questions when his injuries didn't heal. 

Arya obviously isn't in on everything the FM do or are involved in. That doesn't mean that what she has learned so far does not apply. 

Why would there have been a need for for Pate's corpse to be undamaged? Are you saying that Jaqen is waliking around in it, somehow? As he is succesfully posing as Pate he has gotten rid of the corpse and has assumed Pate's appearance, either by peeling his face off or through glamor made by some personal effect. The way Pate died is irrelevant as long as he avoided damage to the face.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

7 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Arya obviously isn't in on everything the FM do or are involved in. That doesn't mean that what she has learned so far does not apply. 

Why would there have been a need for for Pate's corpse to be undamaged? Are you saying that Jaqen is waliking around in it, somehow? As he is succesfully posing as Pate he has gotten rid of the corpse and has assumed Pate's appearance, either by peeling his face off or through glamor made by some personal effect. The way Pate died is irrelevant as long as he avoided damage to the face.

Do you know that for certain? What is to say injuries on other parts of the body do not transfer as well?

I never said Pate's corpse needed to be undamaged, I said Pate needed to be undamaged. Appearance extends beyond a person's face, if Jaqen-Pate returned to the Citadel from his night out and was suddenly six inches taller or fifty pounds lighter, someone would have noticed. Just as they would notice if Pate was limping, or had a gaping wound, or was covered in bruises that never heal. 

[The Fattest Leech]

On 6/29/2016 at 5:31 PM, Dorian Martell said:

Why do you assume pate's death wasn't part of a plan. the FM needed Pate's face, so he had to die. Seems pretty straight forward really 

True is this.

Also, you pretty much knew Pate was going to die just because his name is Pate. That is the deadliest name to have in the books.

The FM need to get in to the Citadel, so they take a "no name" level guy such as Pate. "Jaqen" promises to turn iron into gold, which he did with the iron key to golden dragon coin exchange. Pate bites the coin, ingests the poison, has a heart attack and dies. The *new* Pate at the end of the book is who we last knew to be Jaqen after he changes in front of Arya when those two part ways. The *new* Pate is who Sam is now interacting with.

Also, while Arya is in Braavos, she uses the same poison-the-heart-attack coin technique to kill the captain and the insurance guy.

[Seams]

I just re-listened to the Quill and Tankard prologue scene on the audiobook, and I was struck by the feeling that Lazy Leo Tyrell is also being "played" by Jaqen H'ghar, in addition to the alchemist. Pate says that he was supposed to see the Alchemist at midnight at the tavern, but that the alchemist doesn't show up. But Leo, who is supposed to be confined in the Citadel, unexpectedly shows up about that time. He also uses a phrase that echoes the way Jaqen avoids personal pronouns:

I wasted my last stag on supper... A man must eat. What did you lads have?

He also goads Pate, claiming that he (Leo) will go have sex with Rosey, which is the reason Pate wants to obtain a gold coin. So Leo may be reminding Pate to stay focused on his mission in being out that night: to meet the alchemist and trade the key for the coin.

Maybe it's just the way Roy Dotrice did the voice for Leo, using a voice similar to the one he used for Jaqen H'ghar.

I wonder whether the Faceless Men are able to take on the visage of someone who is still alive? I guess we'll have to wait and see whether one of the other drinking buddies sees the "real" Leo at a later point in the books and refers to the night they talked about the dragons, and Leo says he never had such a conversation with them. Or maybe the "real" Leo is dead and has just become one of the local faces to which Jaqen has access while he is in Oldtown.

[Guest jasonothegreat]

23 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Jaquen killed Pate via poison coin and assumed his identity. We see Jaquen as Pate near the end of AFFC.

Is this a theory or GRRM confirmed?

[Lord Wraith]

 

18 minutes ago, jasonothegreat said:

Is this a theory or GRRM confirmed?

Well we saw Pate died in  the first chapter, we know he was killed by a Faceless Man, and then we see Pate gain in the final Sam chapter saying things the real Pate would never have said. I'd say confirmed, as would most on the forum I again. Not sure if Martin has actually confirmed it via SSM but its all there on the page to see.

[The Fattest Leech]

51 minutes ago, Seams said:

I just re-listened to the Quill and Tankard prologue scene on the audiobook, and I was struck by the feeling that Lazy Leo Tyrell is also being "played" by Jaqen H'ghar, in addition to the alchemist. Pate says that he was supposed to see the Alchemist at midnight at the tavern, but that the alchemist doesn't show up. But Leo, who is supposed to be confined in the Citadel, unexpectedly shows up about that time. He also uses a phrase that echoes the way Jaqen avoids personal pronouns:

I wasted my last stag on supper... A man must eat. What did you lads have?

He also goads Pate, claiming that he (Leo) will go have sex with Rosey, which is the reason Pate wants to obtain a gold coin. So Leo may be reminding Pate to stay focused on his mission in being out that night: to meet the alchemist and trade the key for the coin.

Maybe it's just the way Roy Dotrice did the voice for Leo, using a voice similar to the one he used for Jaqen H'ghar.

I wonder whether the Faceless Men are able to take on the visage of someone who is still alive? I guess we'll have to wait and see whether one of the other drinking buddies sees the "real" Leo at a later point in the books and refers to the night they talked about the dragons, and Leo says he never had such a conversation with them. Or maybe the "real" Leo is dead and has just become one of the local faces to which Jaqen has access while he is in Oldtown.

The thing with the way Jaqen talks and avoids personal pronouns is a characteristic of having a Lothrahi face as Jaqen. I know this sounds confusing . 

Faceless men as a whole do not speak like we see Jaqen do by using the "a girl", "a man", etc. That is a Lorarhi trait, so once Jaqen is not Jaqen anymore when he changes in front of Arya, he no longer speaks as such. The Kindly Old man and the waif also do speak like this. 

So, when Pate meets any FM in AFFC, he is not the Jaqen we and Arya know because Jaqen changed into the new guy with the hook nose. And this same new guy with a hook nose is the alchemist that Pate meets. 

[desire]

On 30/06/2016 at 4:28 AM, Lord Wraith said:

Jaquen killed Pate via poison coin and assumed his identity. We see Jaquen as Pate near the end of AFFC.

OMG I'm such a dunce i never put two and two together ughghghghhghghhhhhhhhhhh

[The Sleeper]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

True is this.

Also, you pretty much knew Pate was going to die just because his name is Pate. That is the deadliest name to have in the books.

The FM need to get in to the Citadel, so they take a "no name" level guy such as Pate. "Jaqen" promises to turn iron into gold, which he did with the iron key to golden dragon coin exchange. Pate bites the coin, ingests the poison, has a heart attack and dies. The *new* Pate at the end of the book is who we last knew to be Jaqen after he changes in front of Arya when those two part ways. The *new* Pate is who Sam is now interacting with.

Also, while Arya is in Braavos, she uses the same poison-the-heart-attack coin technique to kill the captain and the insurance guy.

I do not dispute that Jaqen wanted to infiltrate the citadel and there are several reasons for Pate that make a good candidate to replace. Mostly his association with Walgrave and the latter's senility. Should he complain about the loss of his key, people will simply assume he has misplaced it and is unlike to pay attention to Jaqen's activities. Pate himself being a novice without prospects or family connections is unlike to come under scrutiny from higher ups in the Citadel and when the time comes to disappear, it can be done with little fuss as it would be assumed he simply run off and there are few people like to look for him.

That said the Kindly Old Man has lectured Arya repeatedly on when and how they kill. Among thr things she has told her is that they are not soldiers to kill for a cause, neither butchers on a battlefield to kill anyone who stands in their way. He also forbid her collateral damage on her assignment to kill the insurance salesman. I do believe that Jaqen adheres to the same rules, even if only the letter of them rather than the spirit, which is why he killed Pate the way he did. That and he also got him to do allthe work for him.

15 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Do you know that for certain? What is to say injuries on other parts of the body do not transfer as well?

I never said Pate's corpse needed to be undamaged, I said Pate needed to be undamaged. Appearance extends beyond a person's face, if Jaqen-Pate returned to the Citadel from his night out and was suddenly six inches taller or fifty pounds lighter, someone would have noticed. Just as they would notice if Pate was limping, or had a gaping wound, or was covered in bruises that never heal. 

Melisandre glamors which allowed Mance to trade places with Rattleshirt and vice versa changed the apparent physique of their bearers as well. Rattleshirt was described as runty, while Mance is average size and more fit. We even saw the effect of the glamor weakening when Mance fought Jon as he appeared larger and stronger. I had assumed that the same applied to the flayed faces the FM use as it was mentioned as a superior method of altering one's appearance but that may not be the case. As to the wounds, if you are suggesting that the disguise reflects the state of the bodies when they died, this is nothing I had not considered. The ugly little girl's face would indicate that you are correct, with the caveat that the little girl had been permanently disfigured in life rather than injured. Similarly if such were the case the faces the FM would be palid or show discolorations, rendering the majority of them unusable. Even if you are correct I am confident that Jaqen can come up with a dozen ways to kill that won't leave a mark from smothering Pate while he sleeps to poisoning his drink. A glamor can be drawn from a personal effect like Mance's cloak or Rattleshirt's bone armor. Jaqen presumably wears Pate's clothes. 

I don't see an obstacle for Jaqen to kill Pate anyway he wants, other than adherence to the rules of the FM and he succesfully impersonates Pate.