How Jaqen got Pate to kill himself.

[Seams]

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The thing with the way Jaqen talks and avoids personal pronouns is a characteristic of having a Lothrahi face as Jaqen. I know this sounds confusing . 

Faceless men as a whole do not speak like we see Jaqen do by using the "a girl", "a man", etc. That is a Lorarhi trait, so once Jaqen is not Jaqen anymore when he changes in front of Arya, he no longer speaks as such. The Kindly Old man and the waif also do speak like this. 

So, when Pate meets any FM in AFFC, he is not the Jaqen we and Arya know because Jaqen changed into the new guy with the hook nose. And this same new guy with a hook nose is the alchemist that Pate meets. 

I was aware of the Lorathi background for Jaqen's character and was not confused. I assumed GRRM was giving us a deliberate echo of the old Jaqen to clue us in that the Faceless Man had arrived on time for the promised meeting with Pate.

[The Sleeper]

In Sam's chapter, Sam meets Leo and Pate at the same time. How would that work?

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I was aware of the Lorathi background for Jaqen's character and was not confused. I assumed GRRM was giving us a deliberate echo of the old Jaqen to clue us in that the Faceless Man had arrived on time for the promised meeting with Pate.

I figured you would. You are good with the dialogue and words in this world 

I know lots of people tend to confuse the FM dialogue situation because of that other thing, so I guess I felt compelled a little to clear it up when it was on topic. 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

In Sam's chapter, Sam meets Leo and Pate at the same time. How would that work?

During the prologue, Leo was supposed to be confined to the Citadel for three days as punishment for some infraction. If a faceless man is able to impersonate a living person, he may have chosen Leo because he knew the "real" Leo was unable to show up at the tavern. At the later encounter you describe, Pate is now a faceless man in disguise accompanied by the real Leo who has been sprung from his punishment.

I realize it's highly debatable that a faceless man could impersonate a living person, so an alternate explanation is that the "real" Leo is dead and at least two faceless men are working together on the big Citadel caper. Or it could be that the several clues I picked up in the prologue scene were inadvertent and the real Leo showed up to bother everyone, completely unrelated to the alchemist's scheduled meeting with Pate.

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I figured you would. You are good with the dialogue and words in this world 

I know lots of people tend to confuse the FM dialogue situation because of that other thing, so I guess I felt compelled a little to clear it up when it was on topic. 

[OuttaOldtown]

11 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

 

Well we saw Pate died in  the first chapter, we know he was killed by a Faceless Man, and then we see Pate gain in the final Sam chapter saying things the real Pate would never have said. I'd say confirmed, as would most on the forum I again. Not sure if Martin has actually confirmed it via SSM but its all there on the page to see.

Furthermore in the final Sam chapter we have Pate there in the room with Marwyn, in the prologue his knowledge of Mareyn seems to be the common knowledge an acolyte would have of him. Leo is the one who provides us with better insight as to his usage of glass candles. The best clue is the usage of the word 'obsidian' in Marwyn's chamber while Pate in the prologue called it 'dragon glass'. And the fact that Marwyn immediately corrects the Alchemist leads me to believe Sarella, Leo and Marwyn are all aware that it's not the real Pate. My belief is the Alchemist isn't a rogue FM as many others have suggested..

[Clegane'sPup]

On 6/29/2016 at 6:08 AM, The Sleeper said:

I know I'm not the only one who was confounded the prologue of Feast.

I’m not really interested in the specifics of how the alchemist took Pate’s identity. More interesting to me are the characters involved and how it is going to play out in WoW.

Alleras and Armen speak of Targaryens and the Stormborn (Daenerys). The Mage Marwyn and the glass candles are also discussed in the prologue.

Pate’s internal dialogue is that Rosey brought the alchemist to him and the coin in his hand, danced across his knuckles, the soft yellow gold shining in the candlelight. On one side was a three-headed dragon, on the other the head of some dead king. The alchemist tells Pate what he wants and says he will return in three days.

It seems to me that the alchemist has been keeping tabs on Pate for a while. On the third day the alchemist didn’t show up in the bar instead he turns up in an alley saying he didn’t want to disturb the drinking buddies. Again Pate’s internal dialogue:  the alchemist made it walk across his knuckles, the way he had when Rosey brought the two of them together. In the morning light the dragon glittered as it moved, and gave the alchemist's fingers a golden glow.

Alleras, an acolyte & by some called the Sphinx, approaches Sam in the last FfC chapter. One of the things Alleras is very interested in is Maester Aemon. Sam spills his story and Alleras (Martell?) takes Sam to Marwyn. Tyrell & Pate (alchemist?) are with Marwyn when Sam arrives at Marwyn’s office.

Pate worked for Walgrave. Walgrave had drawn the black stone that would make him Seneschal for a year but because Walgrave’s wits were failing Theobald stepped in. The alchemist wanted a key from Walgraves possession. A key that was:  the key was old and heavy, made of black iron; supposedly it opened every door at the Citadel. Only the archmaesters had such keys.

There are a bunch of possibilities going on. THoBaW don’t want Targs and dragons coming back. Possible Martell snooping around the Citadel. Marwyn has absconded from the Citadel. A cornucopia of conspiracies.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Melisandre glamors which allowed Mance to trade places with Rattleshirt and vice versa changed the apparent physique of their bearers as well. Rattleshirt was described as runty, while Mance is average size and more fit. We even saw the effect of the glamor weakening when Mance fought Jon as he appeared larger and stronger. I had assumed that the same applied to the flayed faces the FM use as it was mentioned as a superior method of altering one's appearance but that may not be the case. As to the wounds, if you are suggesting that the disguise reflects the state of the bodies when they died, this is nothing I had not considered. The ugly little girl's face would indicate that you are correct, with the caveat that the little girl had been permanently disfigured in life rather than injured. Similarly if such were the case the faces the FM would be palid or show discolorations, rendering the majority of them unusable. Even if you are correct I am confident that Jaqen can come up with a dozen ways to kill that won't leave a mark from smothering Pate while he sleeps to poisoning his drink. A glamor can be drawn from a personal effect like Mance's cloak or Rattleshirt's bone armor. Jaqen presumably wears Pate's clothes. 

I don't see an obstacle for Jaqen to kill Pate anyway he wants, other than adherence to the rules of the FM and he succesfully impersonates Pate.

Yep, that's what I was thinking, so if that is the case, the method of death would be important, and the dead would probably have to be "processed" immediately.

From the Kindly Man's discussions with Arya, we know you have to pay a price in order to have the FM kill for you, and we know the Ugly Little Girl asked for the Gift for herself, rather than her horrible father. What if the price of receiving the gift for yourself is donating your face? 

I agree, Jaqen would be fully capable of killing Pate in any number of ways, which is why I think the method is important. Jaqen didn't need Chiswyck or Weese, and their causes of death were a bit more gruesome, but he needed Pate, whose death was much gentler (although still terrifying for Pate of course). I also agree that the FM face switching technique is likely a more complicated/difficult/but easier to maintain version of a glamour. Arya is still Arya when she wears the Ugly Little Girl's face, she feels no different to herself, yet her outward appearance is drastically changed.

[Ser Daegon]

On June 29, 2016 at 9:52 PM, Damon_Tor said:

Not exactly.

When people die at the hands of a Faceless Man, the Faceless Men take their soul and add it to a gestalt consciousness. The Faceless men are puppets of said consciousness. "Wearing a face" is a metaphor like "Skin Changing"... Wargs don't actually wear the skin of a wolf. Neither do the Faceless Men literally wear a face. The two are actually very similar.

Alright now I know that this is off topic from the OP, but seriously where do you get this kind of idea and then speak about it as if it's absolute fact from the novels? There is no evidence of a "gestalt consciousness" behind the faceless men, so really... Where do you get this idea from? Is it because they talk about the many-faced god who decides who dies? They're a religious group, like any other, and they come up with their doctrine from ancient ideas, like all the others. There are no gods in this world, just religious interpretations of how the overall magic of the world works. And it's all blood magic. 

[Ser Daegon]

Now back to the OP, I pretty much agree with what you're saying about Jaqen killing Pate. He did it in an offhand way, almost in a way that absolves him of the guilt of actually killing him. Pate essentially killed himself by tasting the gold. Jaqen didn't make him taste it, he just assumed he would.

It does seem like changing faces is simply glamoring. I don't remember if we actually saw a room full of faces in the books, or if that was an idea they had for the show. 

[The Sleeper]

13 minutes ago, Ser Daegon said:

It does seem like changing faces is simply glamoring. I don't remember if we actually saw a room full of faces in the books, or if that was an idea they had for the show. 

We did. In the ugly little girl chapter. The face change is also compared to glamors and it is supposedly foolproof compared to it. Arya also got some flashes of memories from the girl whose face she put on.

[sgtpimenta]

 

7 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I do not dispute that Jaqen wanted to infiltrate the citadel and there are several reasons for Pate that make a good candidate to replace. Mostly his association with Walgrave and the latter's senility. Should he complain about the loss of his key, people will simply assume he has misplaced it and is unlike to pay attention to Jaqen's activities. Pate himself being a novice without prospects or family connections is unlike to come under scrutiny from higher ups in the Citadel and when the time comes to disappear, it can be done with little fuss as it would be assumed he simply run off and there are few people like to look for him.

That said the Kindly Old Man has lectured Arya repeatedly on when and how they kill. Among thr things she has told her is that they are not soldiers to kill for a cause, neither butchers on a battlefield to kill anyone who stands in their way. He also forbid her collateral damage on her assignment to kill the insurance salesman. I do believe that Jaqen adheres to the same rules, even if only the letter of them rather than the spirit, which is why he killed Pate the way he did. That and he also got him to do allthe work for him.

Melisandre glamors which allowed Mance to trade places with Rattleshirt and vice versa changed the apparent physique of their bearers as well. Rattleshirt was described as runty, while Mance is average size and more fit. We even saw the effect of the glamor weakening when Mance fought Jon as he appeared larger and stronger. I had assumed that the same applied to the flayed faces the FM use as it was mentioned as a superior method of altering one's appearance but that may not be the case. As to the wounds, if you are suggesting that the disguise reflects the state of the bodies when they died, this is nothing I had not considered. The ugly little girl's face would indicate that you are correct, with the caveat that the little girl had been permanently disfigured in life rather than injured. Similarly if such were the case the faces the FM would be palid or show discolorations, rendering the majority of them unusable. Even if you are correct I am confident that Jaqen can come up with a dozen ways to kill that won't leave a mark from smothering Pate while he sleeps to poisoning his drink. A glamor can be drawn from a personal effect like Mance's cloak or Rattleshirt's bone armor. Jaqen presumably wears Pate's clothes. 

I don't see an obstacle for Jaqen to kill Pate anyway he wants, other than adherence to the rules of the FM and he succesfully impersonates Pate.

Great OP, I think you may be onto something here. I have actually asked myself why the how act, but have never got to a satisfactory answer. Good job, Ser.

[Lord Wraith]

12 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Furthermore in the final Sam chapter we have Pate there in the room with Marwyn, in the prologue his knowledge of Mareyn seems to be the common knowledge an acolyte would have of him. Leo is the one who provides us with better insight as to his usage of glass candles. The best clue is the usage of the word 'obsidian' in Marwyn's chamber while Pate in the prologue called it 'dragon glass'. And the fact that Marwyn immediately corrects the Alchemist leads me to believe Sarella, Leo and Marwyn are all aware that it's not the real Pate. My belief is the Alchemist isn't a rogue FM as many others have suggested..

Oh I am certain that Marwyn is working with Jaquen. To what purpose... I am not entirely sure. We don't understand the Faceless Men well enough to see if he is a rogue agent.

[The Sleeper]

About Jaqen being rogue or not, I think it is more complicated than that. In the ugly little girl chapter the FM have a meeting apparently about dividing assignments among them. What is not apparent is some kind of hierarchy among them. They have heated debates and there isn't anyone calling the meeting to order nor issuing commands. While acting independently Jaqen may well be within his mandate and the modus operandi of the FM to do so, even with the disapproval of some of his peers. I suspect the issue is partly to what extent they should intervene in larger affairs.

Whatever Jaqen wants to do, he obviously isn't done yet. It seems to me though that Jaqen is in a perfect position to keep an eye on, well, everything and I don't mean just in Oldtown. The city is a major port with ships and news coming in from all over the world, he has access to the rookery and potentially to information from all over Westeros and on top of that there is the glass candle. Arya's training in large part consists of obtaining and assessing information from different sources. He would also be able to send reports back to his fellow priests in Braavos, either through Braavosi ships or through the candle itself. After all he did attach himself to Marwyn.

As to whether he has been made. I'd be inclined to think that Sarella is probably aware that something is wrong but not what. Leo, from the little we've seen of him doesn't seem to me the kind of person who would pay particular attention. Marwyn presumably would have a better idea about the FM and what they are capable of.

[Damon_Tor]

22 hours ago, Ser Daegon said:

Alright now I know that this is off topic from the OP, but seriously where do you get this kind of idea and then speak about it as if it's absolute fact from the novels? ... There are no gods in this world, just religious interpretations of how the overall magic of the world works. And it's all blood magic. 

I see what you did there.

[Clegane'sPup]

9 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

About Jaqen being rogue or not, I think it is more complicated than that. In the ugly little girl chapter the FM have a meeting apparently about dividing assignments among them. What is not apparent is some kind of hierarchy among them. They have heated debates and there isn't anyone calling the meeting to order nor issuing commands.

Interestingly Arya refers to the eleven people as priests, and that they arrived via secret ways, through tunnels & hidden passages. Arya also says she had been too long in the HoBaW to be afraid of a false face.

The plague faced man gives some insight: We are not warriors, nor soldiers, nor swaggering bravos puffed up with pride. We do not kill to serve some lord, to fatten our purses, to stroke our vanity. We never give the gift to please ourselves. Nor do we choose the ones we kill. We are but servants of the God of Many Faces."

Quite frankly I do not have a grasp on who or what the God of Many Faces is but the Kindly man later tells Arya “You are a servant of the Many-Faced God, and we who serve Him of Many Faces give his gift only to those who have been marked and chosen."

9 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

While acting independently Jaqen may well be within his mandate and the modus operandi of the FM to do so, even with the disapproval of some of his peers. I suspect the issue is partly to what extent they should intervene in larger affairs.

Jaqen may be priest of the order. Anyway, Arya is taken down into the Sanctum and lower to the secret chambers where only the priests were permitted. So, there does seem to be some sort of hierarchy.

9 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Whatever Jaqen wants to do, he obviously isn't done yet. It seems to me though that Jaqen is in a perfect position to keep an eye on, well, everything and I don't mean just in Oldtown. The city is a major port with ships and news coming in from all over the world, he has access to the rookery and potentially to information from all over Westeros and on top of that there is the glass candle

Assuming Jaqen is the alchemist I think that he kills Pate as a means to an end. The task is to get Archmaester Walgraves key, get inside the Citadel and find the book Signs and Portents which was supposedly written before the Doom of Valyria.

9 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Arya's training in large part consists of obtaining and assessing information from different sources. He would also be able to send reports back to his fellow priests in Braavos, either through Braavosi ships or through the candle itself. After all he did attach himself to Marwyn.

Another interesting thing is that the Kindly Man told Arya mummers (*1) change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye (*2). These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with.

9 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

As to whether he has been made. I'd be inclined to think that Sarella is probably aware that something is wrong but not what. Leo, from the little we've seen of him doesn't seem to me the kind of person who would pay particular attention. Marwyn presumably would have a better idea about the FM and what they are capable of.

If Sarella is Alleras it would be interesting because Doran, the man who patiently waits could be the person who petitioned the Him of Many Faces. After all it was Jaqen who told Arya in CoK that things happen slowly, on the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and the other and one day a man is there.

(*1) Arya is sent to a mummers troupe.

(*2) Mel is running low. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice.

Interesting topic. Thanks. Caveat, as usual the author chooses to name same things differently.

[Seams]

On 6/29/2016 at 6:08 AM, The Sleeper said:

...Jaqen at no point takes any direct action that causes Pate's death. He finds out that Pate would do anything for Rosey so he presents him the temptation of the dragon. He couldn't just give it to him, because that would be killing him. So he gives him the option of taking the dragon himself in exchange for the key. Having Pate name himself a thief works as establishing Pate's own initiative in taking the dragon. You will note that Jaqen never tells him to do anything and even at the end does not give Pate the coin, but plays with it causing him to snatch it impatiently out of his hand. 

...while Jaqen is certainly responsible for Pate's death, Pate could have avoided his fate by simply doing nothing.

I just went back and reread the chapter to see if there were subtle clues in the subtext that might clarify the alchemist's (Jaqen's) methods or motive or true identity.

I think you are right that he allows Pate to make a lot of the moves, which is consistent with the initial rationale of the Faceless Men that they were giving a gift of death to people who ask for it. As you point out, when the alchemist asks, "Have you decided what you are?" Pate says, "I suppose I am a thief." In two places, the alchemist says, "As you wish" in response to Pate's decisions or demands: that the location of the narrow alley is the place to exchange the key for the gold dragon and that the alchemist show Pate his face.

The demand that the alchemist show Pate his face reminds me of Arya's initial encounter with the Kindly Man. He reveals his face as a rotting skull until she tries to eat the worm from his eye socket. The worm disappears and the Kindly Man's face turns into a normal, living face. Maybe Pate snatching the "dragon" from the alchemist is similar to Arya snatching the worm.

But there are a lot of other key phrases in the chapter that may carry meaning and help to clarify what is going on.

The cobblestones are constantly described as wet (and dangerous) from the moment Pate departs from his drinking companions. In another passage, I felt GRRM was using wet stones as a reference to whet stones, implying that a sword is being sharpened. This might support the idea that Pate is being turned into a weapon for use by the Faceless Men.

There are also references to the arrival of the dawn. Taking the whet stone / sword personification / dawn imagery together, I find it hard to believe that Pate might personify the Sword of the Morning, but GRRM can be pretty clever in his choices of symbolism. We are told that the name Pate is, "the hero of a thousand ribald stories: a good-hearted, empty-headed lout who always managed to best the fat lordlings, haughty knights, and pompous septons who beset him. Somehow his stupidity would turn out to have been a sort of uncouth cunning; the tales always ended with Spotted Pate sitting on a lord’s high seat or bedding some knight’s daughter." Literary irony and unexpected foreshadowing might be just GRRM's method here, giving us a symbolic allusion to the Sword of the Morning in the guise of a pig boy.

There are also a number of allusions to the Red God. Pate thinks about Walgrave mistaking him for someone named Cressen. The reader knows that Cressen is the maester who loved Stannis like a son, and who was willing to kill himself in an attempt to kill Melisandre with a cup of poison. So Pate here is being compared to the enemy of R'hllor. Later, Pate thinks about the red priests waking up in Oldtown and Stannis's worship of the red god. He is relieved to imagine that the Lannisters will soon defeat Stannis.

I am not sure how to interpret this Pate = Cressen allusion, and the red god references. Could it mean that there is a glamour among the drinking buddies at the Quill and Tankard? Is it just another hint that Pate is about to die by ingesting poison?

On the other hand, there is also a line where Pate imagines waking Rosey with a kiss but, in the end, the cobblestones rush up to "kiss" Pate. This could allude to the kiss of life that Thoros of Myr is able to bestow, contrasting with a kiss from a stone which might be associated with Lady Stoneheart and death. If the magical kiss in the power of Thoros is derived from the red god, maybe R'hllor represents some positive things and some negative things in Pate's brief arc.

We are further acquainted with the Hightower in the course of the prologue. It strikes me that the tower is similar to a candle, another important topic in this chapter. But the more important symbol for this chapter may be the tower's shadow:

...where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword. Those born and raised in Oldtown could tell the time of day by where that shadow fell. Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top.

I have wondered about the Wall as a sword symbol, probably most closely linked with the Stark greatsword, Ice (although Long Claw is also important alongside the Wall, obviously). So here we have a tower with a shadow that cuts the city like a sword and you can see the Wall from the top of the tower. (The obsidian candle also has sharp edges.) Instead of Pate as the personification of the sword, sharpening his dull edge on the wet stones / whetstone of Oldtown's streets, maybe only the tower or its shadow are the sword symbols in this complicated prologue. Even though a wristwatch would be outside of the technology of the story, I have wondered whether GRRM has set up the Night's "Watch" as a pun about telling time. Here we are told that the Oldtown natives use the Tower's shadow to tell time.

(We probably need to start a thread with landmarks of Westeros to figure out the symbolism of major manmade structures (and natural landforms) and how they are related.)

Just one more observation: Later in AFfC, when Brienne is wandering around Duskendale without her shield (having dropped it off to be repainted) she gets lost in a cul de sac where she comes upon an old woman at a well with three pigs. Some time after that, she finds a way into the Whispers and barely survives the attack by Shagwell, Tymeon and Pyg, two of whom emerge from a well. On his fateful walk through Oldtown, Pate the Pig Boy encounters both, "the manses of the pious clustered like children gathered round the feet of an old dowager," and "A butcher’s cart rumbled past Pate down the river road, five piglets in the back squealing in distress." Soon Pate is in a narrow alley, dying. Both characters encounter an old woman (Pate's dowager is a reference to the Starry Sept) and some pigs. I know there is a motif involving butchers and the slaughter of lambs, goats, pigs and other meat, and I believe it refers to the way that smallfolk are used and abused and thrown away as high born people play the game of thrones. But the details of Pate's pig encounter intrigue me: Why five piglets? Does the cart have meaning, similar to the role of the well in Brienne's escape from death? Just another interesting parallel that's fun to keep in mind as GRRM spins his tale.

[The Sleeper]

Wow, you've taken it a bit further than I did. About Walgrave and Cressen. Walgrave must be a really old geezer if he mistakes a novice for Cressen, so I'm thinking that and his mementos may be a reference to a future Dunk and Egg tale.

[gregg22]

On 6/30/2016 at 4:36 AM, The Sleeper said:

 

I don't see how that proves your point. I agree that he is recruiting Arya, but still she's the one who is picking who dies as well as creating the blood debt in the first place. If the rules are loose this isn't such a case. There is nothing inconsistent here with what Arya has been taught.

 

He says the Red God is owed three deaths, but she only ever names two. She threatened to name him as the third, so he agreed to help her by freeing the northmen. 

So what about the third death owed to the Red God? He either bends the rule, or he made the rule up in the first place.

 

[The Sleeper]

@gregg22 The weaselsoup incident involved about a hungred deaths total. And the rule I was talking about is that the FM don't choose who they kill.

@Clegane'sPup Novices and accolytes are not on the same level as Priests. The priests themselves however appear to be epuals.

[Protagoras]

This something that modern tv series seems to skip, but if you go into a building as a newcomer and try to sneak around, people will notice that you are new and wonders what you do there. Even if this is not a part of their routine (like the citadel). This will cause problems for a infiltrator who realisticly can´t stay hidden constantly but at some point must risk being seen in order to perform whatever mission he or she has. 

This (and Pate should have thought of this) means that the key is useless without an identification to back it with and since new persons usually won´t have as much access, this means you need an old identity. 

So that Pate bites the poisioned coin is very much a part of the plan. I think Jaqen have observed Pate for quite a bit, took him a the most gullible of the lot (good pick!) and learned his habits (as well as his "need" for much money and fast).