Aegon's absence is really noticeable now

[Iron Mother]

1 hour ago, illinifan said:

There is nothing to suggest that FAegon is an effective ruler.  He has lived in exile on a boat his entire life.  Because Jon Con and others have told him how to rule?  Really Joffrey was brought up as the Crown Prince in King's Landing where he was groomed to rule but that meant nothing.  Being brought up on a boat with a few disgraced retainers does not a king make.  FAegon is as unprepared to rule as Jon and Dany, but unlike Jon and Dany he lacks compassion and empathy toward the common man.  One thing that Jon and Dany have going for them is that they are "broken things" and have compassion toward other broken things.  FAegon through his callous disregard of the fact that a peasant child was brutally murdered so he could be saved has no compassion toward the downtrodden.  Could you imagine Jon or Dany reacting like FAegon did dismissively to that story?  

 

He was trained in the same fashion any king would be.  A Maester, a member of the Sept and training in battle/swordsmanship.

Daenerys has one thing and one thing only:  Well, 2 things: DRAGONS and a Gentle Heart.

I do not know how with such little revealed in the books you could make the preposterous claim Aegon would not make a good king.  He seemed like an amiable lad to me.  And Connington was a father figure in place of Rhaeger (whom he loved dearly).  The environment was right to produce a good and proper heir.  Not enough information - not even for you - was available ANYWHERE to say if he was a good or bad selection for Westeros rule.  They did everything by the book as it had been since the days of old.  In TRADITION.  As for the child killed in his place, WHAT could this person do about that?  It already happened.  It happened for a greater purpose in their opinion, to keep the "Targaryen" lineage alive so they could recoup the Throne. 

The 2 kids that were burned in place of Bran and Rickon, there wasn't a ceremony for them.  They even stopped them from being financially compensated lest the truth be found out.

Can we be friends now?  You speak eloquently - there's no reason to keep scratching each other

[charleois]

I think Aegon was added by Martin because of his fascination with history. In the Middle Ages there were numerous young pretenders (such as Percy Warbeck) with very thin claims and slight support. Daenerys is more like Henry Bolingbroke or William III, having latent support in Westeros and very strong foreign allies; Aegon is an example of an historical curiosity. Likewise, Quentyn.

[Iron Mother]

42 minutes ago, charleois said:

I think Aegon was added by Martin because of his fascination with history. In the Middle Ages there were numerous young pretenders (such as Percy Warbeck) with very thin claims and slight support. Daenerys is more like Henry Bolingbroke or William III, having latent support in Westeros and very strong foreign allies; Aegon is an example of an historical curiosity. Likewise, Quentyn.

I don't know.......... Connington was not some stranger.  He was the assumed gay lover of Rhaegar Targaryen.  He was a Lord in his own right of Griffin's Roost, and people like Varys and the guy from Pentos, there was a network who knew what the plan was.  It's hard to call Aegon a pretender.  But not guaranteed either when his character was introduced in the book I thought he might be a fraud.  I became convinced.

[Kyrion]

I am hugely disappointed Jon Connington, Aegon, and Varys true heritage are left out of the plot. Basically it changes things WAY too much. Heavy speculation and likely TWOW outcome below based on foreshadowing and prophecy~.

For one, It removes a huge plot which basically drives the political motivations of the last two books. Aegon is already meeting the Tyrells in the open field after he captured Storm's End, led by Randyll Tarly. 

Tommen (and now Cersei sitting on the Iron Throne) takes Aegons role in the show(besides massive differences) in that Aegon after he defeats the Tyrell army/acquires the commanders Mathis Rowan and Randyll Tarly who will likely deflect to Aegon as they hate Mace Tyrell, he will acquire Kings Landing from Cersei and Tommen as he will have the support of the High Sparrow who is already looking for a new king after shaming Cersei with the Walk and Tommen being born of Incest. 

Aegon will look very attractive since he basically has a Septa as a surrogate mother who teached him everything about the faith and he has a story the Sparrow should love, and ofcourse we get a prophecy that the people will cheer when they see a cloth dragon on poles or a mummers Dragon (which is Aegon). and THATS when Cersei will burn the city down or atleast try to, when Aegon and Jon Connington steal Kings Landing from her. Then she will be forced to leave Kings Landing/flee back to Casterly Rock where Tyrion will get to have a showdown with her, as that's his objective, to take Casterly Rock from Cersei.

With Aegon on the Throne, THIS is where Dany comes to Westeros, where she will fight Aegon over the Iron Throne(called the Dance of the Dragons, as George said all the way back in 2003 that there will be a second Dance of the Dragons, now its clear it will be between Aegon and Dany). Dany will hate Aegon since she will believe him to be a fake/impersonating her nephew as Tyrion will no doubt tell her that since Tyrion himself thinks Aegon is fake, but also someone who stole the Iron Throne from her. 

This is where Dany will invade with Dothraki, Pirates, and sellswords, Red Preists, Dragon(s) and other unsavory people to try and steal the Iron Throne from Aegon, not Cersei as in the show.

Note the prophecy of Aegon being cheered amidst a crowd. It pretty much says that Aegon will be loved throughout the kingdom and seen as the savior probably as the prince that was promised or whatever the High Sparrow will concut, and he will be seen as a restoration of the Targaryen Dynasty back before the war(which is very important as Winter has arrived, so people will be desperate for the time when they were well off, and believe it or not the smallfolk thought Aerys was a good king that kept order despite the highlords calling Aerys the Madking.

Basically the situation will be that Dany will come over to Westeros with the worst kind of people and atleast one dragon(as the other two might be stolen), and she will be seen as the evil queen that rapes and pillages Westeors and sets it ablaze and challenges the beloved Aegon for the Iron Throne. Dany will be perceived to be the villain by the smallfolk, especially since she has red priests with her (who will tell her she is Azor Ahai or the savior) when the smallfolk are strong followers of the seven. 

The show largely has flipped the roles, where Dany is coming to save Westeros from the Mad Queen Cersei. And her entire development over the course of the books to say f*** peace Im going to take things with fire and blood are now tossed to the wind since she has the council of Tyrion who is much nicer in the show as opposed to the books. Its a much different version of events.

I would rather read about Dany the madqueen- than Dany the savior.

[Ruhail]

26 minutes ago, Kyrion said:

I am hugely disappointed Jon Connington, Aegon, and Varys true heritage are left out of the plot. Basically it changes things WAY too much. Heavy speculation and likely TWOW outcome below based on foreshadowing and prophecy~.

For one, It removes a huge plot which basically drives the political motivations of the last two books. Aegon is already meeting the Tyrells in the open field after he captured Storm's End, led by Randyll Tarly. 

Tommen (and now Cersei sitting on the Iron Throne) takes Aegons role in the show(besides massive differences) in that Aegon after he defeats the Tyrell army/acquires the commanders Mathis Rowan and Randyll Tarly who will likely deflect to Aegon as they hate Mace Tyrell, he will acquire Kings Landing from Cersei and Tommen as he will have the support of the High Sparrow who is already looking for a new king after shaming Cersei with the Walk and Tommen being born of Incest. 

Aegon will look very attractive since he basically has a Septa as a surrogate mother who teached him everything about the faith and he has a story the Sparrow should love, and ofcourse we get a prophecy that the people will cheer when they see a cloth dragon on poles or a mummers Dragon (which is Aegon). and THATS when Cersei will burn the city down or atleast try to, when Aegon and Jon Connington steal Kings Landing from her. Then she will be forced to leave Kings Landing/flee back to Casterly Rock where Tyrion will get to have a showdown with her, as that's his objective, to take Casterly Rock from Cersei.

With Aegon on the Throne, THIS is where Dany comes to Westeros, where she will fight Aegon over the Iron Throne(called the Dance of the Dragons, as George said all the way back in 2003 that there will be a second Dance of the Dragons, now its clear it will be between Aegon and Dany). Dany will hate Aegon since she will believe him to be a fake/impersonating her nephew as Tyrion will no doubt tell her that since Tyrion himself thinks Aegon is fake, but also someone who stole the Iron Throne from her. 

This is where Dany will invade with Dothraki, Pirates, and sellswords, Red Preists, Dragon(s) and other unsavory people to try and steal the Iron Throne from Aegon, not Cersei as in the show.

Note the prophecy of Aegon being cheered amidst a crowd. It pretty much says that Aegon will be loved throughout the kingdom and seen as the savior probably as the prince that was promised or whatever the High Sparrow will concut, and he will be seen as a restoration of the Targaryen Dynasty back before the war(which is very important as Winter has arrived, so people will be desperate for the time when they were well off, and believe it or not the smallfolk thought Aerys was a good king that kept order despite the highlords calling Aerys the Madking.

Basically the situation will be that Dany will come over to Westeros with the worst kind of people and atleast one dragon(as the other two might be stolen), and she will be seen as the evil queen that rapes and pillages Westeors and sets it ablaze and challenges the beloved Aegon for the Iron Throne. Dany will be perceived to be the villain by the smallfolk, especially since she has red priests with her who will tell her she is Azor Ahai or the savior. 

The show largely has flipped the roles, where Dany is coming to save Westeros from the Mad Queen Cersei. And her entire development over the course of the books to say f*** peace Im going to take things with fire and blood are now tossed to the wind since she has the council of Tyrion who is much niceer in the show as opposed to the books. Its a much different version of events.

I would rather read about Dany the madqueen- than Dany the savior.

Great post  

[CrypticWeirwood]

31 minutes ago, Kyrion said:

I am hugely disappointed Jon Connington, Aegon, and Varys true heritage are left out of the plot. Basically it changes things WAY too much. Heavy speculation and likely TWOW outcome below based on foreshadowing and prophecy~.

You make a strong and convincing argument that the tale will be much more interesting in the books. I never could see how Dany’s naked savages and castrated ex-slave soldiers would ever be seen as “the good guys” by the Great Houses of Westeros. Plus allying with Tyrion the hate imp isn’t going to look good either.

On the other hand, Aegon as you mention has lords lined up behind him (then again, so did the Blackfyres who would be king). Plus honestly, he’s male and Dany is not, which is going to count for a lot in the eyes of many, our author excepted.

[CrypticWeirwood]

39 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

I don't know.......... Connington was not some stranger.  He was the assumed gay lover of Rhaegar Targaryen.  He was a Lord in his own right of Griffin's Roost, and people like Varys and the guy from Pentos, there was a network who knew what the plan was.  It's hard to call Aegon a pretender.  But not guaranteed either when his character was introduced in the book I thought he might be a fraud.  I became convinced.

Your point stands even without the word “gay” there. It seems old-fashioned. People will understand perfectly well without it, Prince Oberyn would agree.  

In any case, regal Rhaegar and cunning Jon Connington had been squires together, and remained extremely close.

[Kyrion]

I also suspect Dany will Marry Euron (she has dreams of kissing and making love to a man with blue lips and a cold cock in ADWD and the recent Aeron chapter solidified this notion) in the books, so she will be seen even more as a villain. 

But if the show flips this and has Cersei marry Euron, they completely went to a black and white plotline.

Very disappointing.

[Iron Mother]

3 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Your point stands even without the word “gay” there. It seems old-fashioned. People will understand perfectly well without it, Prince Oberyn would agree.  

In any case, regal Rhaegar and cunning Jon Connington had been squires together, and remained extremely close.

lol Oberyn... yes, they wouldn't care in Dorne.  Being bisexual myself, I have no idea if readers of my post were like "Rhaegar's LOVER"? and not get it.  Even if they are book readers they may not see that connection.  They were life-long pals, but Jon was definitely in love with him.  But Rhaegar had a wife and children AND a lover in Lyanna whom he fathered Jonearys or whatever his name is now.  I hate homosexual and even "gay" is becoming out of season.  You're right, "lovers" says enough.

Even in Westeros, Ser Loras Tyrell was a "pillow biter" and everyone knew... it seems like no one cared so long as it was not out in the open.  But if he weren't royalty, there would have been great shame on that.  I felt really bad when Renly died because they really loved each other.  The Oliver guy from LF's pillowhouse pissed me off.  I never liked him.  Then he ratted Loras out.  Typical fag (don't anyone start with my use of that word, please).  a back-biter snitch.  He wanted to get with Loras because Loras was a renown figure.  The whole "Dorne-shaped birthmark on his thigh" that was way too old school.  It reminded when they photographed naked Michael Jackson to prove he had a mole on his secret spot.  So lame.  As if people especially in Westeros aren't naked in front of their "servants" or people in their service. 

The Sept Sloths really made me ill.... and Cercei meted out that judgment with all righteousness.  Septa Unella must pay.  Cercei is brilliant That was so righteous to call zombie Mountain on her.  "Shame, Shame, Shame" I almost jumped out of my seat over that.  Self-righteous hypocrites got exactly what they deserved.  Cercei is my hero for that.  I loved the High Sparrow wouldn't ALLOW anyone to leave even though Marjorie was warning him.  They brought all that onto themselves. 

The explosion in the face of L-L-L-Lancel L-L-Lannister was a catharsis of itself.  That you can sleep with your aunt and then turn to the gods and not just be forgiven but then become the main militant force martyr in hunting everyone else sins.

Cersei is my hero second only to Arya.  Arya doesn't have a grand plan and I wonder what her motivations can be after the list is finished.  I want her to find Jon and Sansa and Bran but on the other hand, she won't feel belonging with them IMO.  I can't see that happening.  She lost her way/her Self to vengeance.  If she has an Anakin moment of atonement, it will be big - like, with much tears and sorrow.  As master assassin, she's completely righteous.  What is left when that's over for her? 

Arya  

[Iron Mother]

3 hours ago, Kyrion said:

I also suspect Dany will Marry Euron (she has dreams of kissing and making love to a man with blue lips and a cold cock in ADWD and the recent Aeron chapter solidified this notion) in the books, so she will be seen even more as a villain. 

 

wow, I completely missed that.  Revelation.  I think at this point, that won't happen... not when she is allied with Kraken Asha.  And those dreams are not in the show.  The only dream they must fulfill now is when she was in the Iron Throne room and it's blasted apart and snowing.  Who knows how that will happen or if it was alternate fate. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

10 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

The explosion in the face of L-L-L-Lancel L-L-Lannister was a catharsis of itself.  That you can sleep with your aunt and then turn to the gods and not just be forgiven but then become the main militant force martyr in hunting everyone else sins.

Not aunt. Lancel and Cersei are cousins because their fathers were brothers. It’s a bit more complicated than that because Kevan was also Joanna’s cousin, but we can just say cousins and be done with it.

The High Sparrow was upset that they were not married, not that they were cousins.

[Iron Mother]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Not aunt. Lancel and Cersei are cousins because their fathers were brothers. It’s a bit more complicated than that because Kevan was also Joanna’s cousin, but we can just say cousins and be done with it.

The High Sparrow was upset that they were not married, not that they were cousins.

he put it all on Cercei: "fornication, outside of marriage, etc" he really wanted the Jaime blast... and admission the kids were incest bastards.  Like I said, LLLancel turns to god and no more accusation..... except his testimony remains valid.  What a crock

In the book, it was confusing, she was doing the Kettleblacks and having relations with Lady Tayna of Myr and promising her maidenhood to anyone that would testify against Marjorie. 

The most colorful character from all that is Jala Bar Zoe..... that was funny to me they kept talking about his feather cloak.. and when Cercei was entrapping the Blue Baird and smashed his lute across his face, then gets Pycell to say he REGULARLY brought moon tea to Marjorie.  The plot was so ridiculous, and then Blue Baird said he saw the Redwine twins visiting Marjorie.... and Cercei is like "um NO........." because their family was off defending the kingdom on some mission, the books have a totally different flair.  Not as serious, very humorous and much more absurd sordid tales and intrigue.  Such as when Cercei has the tower of the Hand blown up because she thinks Tyrion is still in the walls!  LOL

And her self-commentary "Jaime should not be crawling around on ladders, the man has one hand and a stump!"  I found the book to be positively engaging how the Myr woman snakes her way into Cercei's bed, and Cercei is WAY drunk, she starts dialogue about "is this how Robert used my parts DRUNK in the middle of the night?" while manually stimulating the woman and bites the woman's breasts... and then she is sickened by the whole thing and tells her to leave. 

And also the guy who has Targaryenish hair color...... Cercei is all in shock for a moment she thinks it is Rhaegar come back from the dead for her... (totally steamed drunk)............ and her psycho dreams of the Imp naked covered in coarse hair coming to suckle on her bloody nipples.  She's a freaking ruin.  In the book (y'all should read them!) her plot to destroy Marjorie is was more humorous than in the show.  It's one bumbling mishap to the next until everything she did collapses on her.

It's not yet known if she gets the fiery revenge in the books, but I doubt it.  If anything, she's been so traumatized she will explode all of King's Landing and abscond with Tommen to Casterly Rock or something.

[khal drogon]

I am actually glad that the show omitted Aegon plotline. Aegon in the books felt like he is a plot device to stall Dany in the South. Euron is the real deal not him. Even in the books the primary conflict will be between Euron and Dany not Aegon and Dany. Aegon will only keep the throne warm for her. In the books I don't even think he will have the south united with him. I expect the Reach and Dorne to be divided. Sure Dany's conflict will be interesting with him but in the end he won't matter. Dany will still have superior army over Aegon and will even gain some allies in Westeros but Euron will be her biggest challenge. 

[Maid So Fair]

21 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

He was trained in the same fashion any king would be.  A Maester, a member of the Sept and training in battle/swordsmanship.

Daenerys has one thing and one thing only:  Well, 2 things: DRAGONS and a Gentle Heart.

I do not know how with such little revealed in the books you could make the preposterous claim Aegon would not make a good king.  He seemed like an amiable lad to me.  And Connington was a father figure in place of Rhaeger (whom he loved dearly).  The environment was right to produce a good and proper heir.  Not enough information - not even for you - was available ANYWHERE to say if he was a good or bad selection for Westeros rule.  They did everything by the book as it had been since the days of old.  In TRADITION.  As for the child killed in his place, WHAT could this person do about that?  It already happened.  It happened for a greater purpose in their opinion, to keep the "Targaryen" lineage alive so they could recoup the Throne. 

The 2 kids that were burned in place of Bran and Rickon, there wasn't a ceremony for them.  They even stopped them from being financially compensated lest the truth be found out.

Can we be friends now?  You speak eloquently - there's no reason to keep scratching each other

Amiable? He threw a tantrum because he got bested at a board game.

The problem with all this education is that it is very theoretical and in fact does not touch on things that are far more important than book knowledge and even martial prowess (not that Aegon comes across as remarkable in either) - resilience, strong will, ability to inspire loyalty and recognise good counsel, ability to read people and leadership skills. Dany and Jon might have started at roughly the same starting point, give or take, but they have both grown immeasurably since. They have faced actual hardship and adversity unlike Aegon who for all his claim to living among the common peoplle grew up in a very controlled environment, they have had to make hard decisions and live with the consequences, had to earn thier followers loyalty through bravery and sound administration. Dany especially went from being a frail fearful girl no one expected to last longer than a few months to a queen in her own right.They have not always succeeded, but their failures provided dearly paid for lessons in leadership. Aegon is very much starting from square one, and there is nothing to suggest that ne possessions kind if brilliance that would allow him to overcome that disadvantage. 

There's also plenty to suggest otherwise - he's prideful and arrogant, dismissive of those he perceived s below him. The one major decision he has made in his life involves rashly following someone else's plan. Having seen the est army in Essos fall into his lap without any risk and achieve some quick early victories against an oblivious enemy, he seem to view war as a game and a way to win glory, not the deadly seriou affair that it is. He's daily swayed and quick to show emotion (so no master manipulator) and doesn't excel as a swordsman or a scholar. Even on the brink of his campaign, he happy to follow. His decisions like not waiting for Dany, certainty that Dorne must fall in line and making Duck a KG show no great political insight. He's no worse than many other young lords with similar education, but neither is he exceptional and you don't get to reclaim and hold a lost throne by being average. 

[Iron Mother]

1 hour ago, Maid So Fair said:

Amiable? He threw a tantrum because he got bested at a board game.

The problem with all this education is that it is very theoretical and in fact does not touch on things that are far more important than book knowledge and even martial prowess (not that Aegon comes across as remarkable in either) - resilience, strong will, ability to inspire loyalty and recognise good counsel, ability to read people and leadership skills. Dany and Jon might have started at roughly the same starting point, give or take, but they have both grown immeasurably since. They have faced actual hardship and adversity unlike Aegon who for all his claim to living among the common peoplle grew up in a very controlled environment, they have had to make hard decisions and live with the consequences, had to earn thier followers loyalty through bravery and sound administration. Dany especially went from being a frail fearful girl no one expected to last longer than a few months to a queen in her own right.They have not always succeeded, but their failures provided dearly paid for lessons in leadership. Aegon is very much starting from square one, and there is nothing to suggest that ne possessions kind if brilliance that would allow him to overcome that disadvantage. 

There's also plenty to suggest otherwise - he's prideful and arrogant, dismissive of those he perceived s below him. The one major decision he has made in his life involves rashly following someone else's plan. Having seen the est army in Essos fall into his lap without any risk and achieve some quick early victories against an oblivious enemy, he seem to view war as a game and a way to win glory, not the deadly seriou affair that it is. He's daily swayed and quick to show emotion (so no master manipulator) and doesn't excel as a swordsman or a scholar. Even on the brink of his campaign, he happy to follow. His decisions like not waiting for Dany, certainty that Dorne must fall in line and making Duck a KG show no great political insight. He's no worse than many other young lords with similar education, but neither is he exceptional and you don't get to reclaim and hold a lost throne by being average. 

what you just described - ALL - is how any Prince in Westeros would have been raised.  Daenerys is a foreign conqueror and Tyrion lets her know that immediately... that she has absolutely NO references to Westeros or the place she wants to CONQUER.  As opposed to a long-game plan to INSTALL (not conquer) THE rightful heir into the kingdom.

Do you want some person from Taiwan assuming the American Presidency out of nowhere?  Or do you want someone familiar with the ways and customs of Westeros who actually is the Royal Bloodline to restore all the chaos of Cercei's illegitimate ASSUMED rule?

Do you dislike Aegon because he is male?  It seems like you are pulling SUCH rare and strange things from the books even I don't remember happening and I know every book almost by heart.  Tyrion put him on the path to WHY he should land in Dorne by himself instead of Connington's plan to go grovel at the foot of Dany.

WHAT is this about armies of Essos falling into his lap and him staying on the sidelines?  That must be fan fiction.

I made a valid contrast to Dany and Aegon, I think you are choosing based on gender, sorry.  I'm a woman and I don't choose anything based on gender.  She has dragons..... as if that's the lynchpin to everything.  But to Westeros, IT IS HORROR!  No one in Westeros wants to see dragons coming on the offensive.

Daenerys it seems has more in common with Cercei in that she ASSUMES she has the right to rule and that's her only motivation TO CONQUER.  At least Aegon is normalized, a "returning" figure and the rightful heir, sure there will be violence, but I think many more people would receive Aegon before Dany. 

If Dany had no dragons she would be dead 7 times already, Qarth would have thrown her into the garden of bones, nobody would be sailing there to court her, all she has is power and strength and the assumed right to rule.... ANGRY even.  Westeros is not going to be having that.  If in the show Aegon was present, Varys and Tyrion (AS IN THE BOOK) would be seeking out Aegon NOT Daenerys........ except for her dragons.

 

[blckp]

what about prophecy? and what about slaying stannis? no aegon no stannnis no joncon

Quote

"Glowing like a sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire... mother of dragons, slayer of lies.

 

[sj4iy]

Can't say I've noticed it at all, to be honest.  I have enjoyed the slim-down of unnecessary characters and finally seeing an end in sight.

[Iron Mother]

Oh also, Illyrio and Varys (and Prince Doran I believe) have been aware of Aegon.... and they set him up under NOT FOREIGNERS, but Westeroseans to train him in all the ways and customs of his homeland.

Westeros doesn't know a Khalassar.  Westeros is not ready to have dragons attacking, Westeros has no slaves, Westeros has no Great Grass Sea.  Every title Danerys has assigned herself are FOREIGN to Westeros.... yet she things the whole kingdom will bend to her foreign ways. 

Aegon is at least been trained in the gods of Westeros, the history of Westeros and all the Houses, the Bloodlines, the Alliances, the kingdoms and has a legitimate Lord on his side - Connington - who many people in Westeros still remember and know well.  Even if Dany has Tyrion, in reality, Connington has a House "Griffins Roost" which he re-conquers in the book........... a great and authentic place for Aegon to raise his banners (I'm just repeating what Tyrion said in the books) and then wait for Daenerys to BACK HIM UP.  Jon C wanted Aegon to go grovel to Dany for alliance - to ask for her hand in marriage.  How is that different than EURON??  or any of the other people who want to marry her to align with her power.  Tyrion says NO, make her come to you.  Then they can ally in Westeros........ with Aegon's legitimacy, and Dany's strength. 

No matter what you say, Dany has no legitimacy in Westeros.  Not at all.  Only her name.  Aegon is the real heir.  Not her.  Viscerys was the real heir also (sorry people, in Westeros, women do not rule outright).  I feel that whole aspect of the show has been altered to make room for Dany.  But I can see the ships docking, the Khalassar attaching, the dragons attacking, and Dany's going to fly Drogon over King's Landing and burn the throne room?  It works for on screen but makes no sense.

If Westeros just bows down to Dany I will be very upset.  She MUST face major opposition from many, many different places.  And not just because she's a female ruler, but because she's a foreigner with self-appointed titles that mean absolutely nothing to anyone in Westeros. How will Khalassar know the difference between friend and foe?  Teach them banners?  They can't even speak english/westerosi.  It's all turned out lame.

[Maid So Fair]

@Iron Mother

By that's precisely the issue - the right upbringing is not enough to create a perfect monarch. We saw that with Joffre and Tommen and numerous Targs. Look at Sansa's (a girl with perfect education as a lady) debut in KL. And helps, but ultimately it comes down to that prince's unique personality, personal experiences and above all requires experience. You can't go from zero to hero, but need to actually exercise decision making, administration and leadership skills and learn from your m mistakes. FAegon has never been in charge of anything and he has  preciously little time to learn. Even if you think he compares favourably with Jon/Dany/Robb from AGOT (and he lacks Jon and Dany's perceptiveness, Robb's military skills and sense of responsibility and their charisma that wins them friends easily), by now they are several hundred steps ahead of him.

Besides, the whole idea is an illusion - fAegon has missed on the main area of a princes education - actually living at court, interacting with the other members of the nobility, forging alliances and experiencing the political intrigue and governance for himself. He's never attended a Small Council meeting g to discuss important matters of state, or a war council, he's never sat next to his father/regent as he received his lords bannermen and administered justice. Most importantly, unlike a young lord/crown prince, he was never in charge of anything himself and hasn't hd an opportunity to cut hia teeth at being a leader in a controlled environment. He's in the Great Game now, and the great game is terrifying - and he knows nothing about it.

Gender plays no role in mybelief that fAegon is no perfect prince and I'm really not sure where you got that impression since I compared fAegon to both Dany and Jon. And I don't need to compare him to anybody to see him as the ultimate knight of summer with no real substance, I think his actions speak for themselves. Facing adversity is a part and parcel of being a leader, yet he gets visibly upset with Tyrion for telling him things he doesn't want to hear and cheating at a game. He decides to attack Westeros, a major undertaking with potentially fatal consequences , on the advice of a stranger all the while making it clear he's not really thinking about the consequences (sure, Dorne will join us! I don't really know all that much about the intricacies of the current political situation in Westeros, but let's ttack!). He dismisses Cersei who he knows nothing about just because she's a woman. He gives the GC an idea (one they want to hear), but he doesn't dominate the meeting. The actual strategy comes from other people. His contribution to battle planning is wanting to be in the van. Nor does he win the GC over - they've already been paid for by Varys.

Make what you will of Dany but Dany had no dragons in AGOT and she made the Dothraki respect her and was shown as perceptive and intelligent from her first chapter . Her dragons have yet to play a part in actual battle and have no until now been too young and small to really matter. They have helped obviously but by no means are they an instant win button. 

And how is Aegon any less a foreigner? He hasnt set foot in Westeros since he was an infant. And yes, like her he assumes he has the right to rule based on his lineage alone despite the fact that he has a lot less experienced with ruling than she does, none in fact. And if his reception is better, which it might be, that doesnt in any way make him more fit to rule or a better king. It just means that Varys is doing hs job.

[illinifan]

21 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

Oh also, Illyrio and Varys (and Prince Doran I believe) have been aware of Aegon.... and they set him up under NOT FOREIGNERS, but Westeroseans to train him in all the ways and customs of his homeland.

Westeros doesn't know a Khalassar.  Westeros is not ready to have dragons attacking, Westeros has no slaves, Westeros has no Great Grass Sea.  Every title Danerys has assigned herself are FOREIGN to Westeros.... yet she things the whole kingdom will bend to her foreign ways. 

Aegon is at least been trained in the gods of Westeros, the history of Westeros and all the Houses, the Bloodlines, the Alliances, the kingdoms and has a legitimate Lord on his side - Connington - who many people in Westeros still remember and know well.  Even if Dany has Tyrion, in reality, Connington has a House "Griffins Roost" which he re-conquers in the book........... a great and authentic place for Aegon to raise his banners (I'm just repeating what Tyrion said in the books) and then wait for Daenerys to BACK HIM UP.  Jon C wanted Aegon to go grovel to Dany for alliance - to ask for her hand in marriage.  How is that different than EURON??  or any of the other people who want to marry her to align with her power.  Tyrion says NO, make her come to you.  Then they can ally in Westeros........ with Aegon's legitimacy, and Dany's strength. 

No matter what you say, Dany has no legitimacy in Westeros.  Not at all.  Only her name.  Aegon is the real heir.  Not her.  Viscerys was the real heir also (sorry people, in Westeros, women do not rule outright).  I feel that whole aspect of the show has been altered to make room for Dany.  But I can see the ships docking, the Khalassar attaching, the dragons attacking, and Dany's going to fly Drogon over King's Landing and burn the throne room?  It works for on screen but makes no sense.

If Westeros just bows down to Dany I will be very upset.  She MUST face major opposition from many, many different places.  And not just because she's a female ruler, but because she's a foreigner with self-appointed titles that mean absolutely nothing to anyone in Westeros. How will Khalassar know the difference between friend and foe?  Teach them banners?  They can't even speak english/westerosi.  It's all turned out lame.

 

How is FAegon any less of a foreigner than Dany is?  How is a boy who grew up in the East and who lived a sheltered and coddled existence on a boat any more groomed to rule that either Rhaegar's sister, Dany, or his actual living son, Jon?  

There is nothing to suggest that FAegon has wonderful personal leadership traits and quite a bit to suggest he is a vapid, spoiled, and easily manipulated young man.  Say what you want about Dany and Jon but their experiences as "outcasts" in society has given both of them empathy for "cripples, bastards, and broken things" not generally found among leaders within this word.  FAegon has lived quite a sheltered existence and doesn't have that same empathy.  However, unlike many other young lords, FAegon also hasn't grown up within a court watching his father rule.  Sam of all people points this out to Jon when he goes into one of his early whiny modes.  Young lords and ladies learned how to rule by observing their parents' meetings.  The reason why Dany and Jon have no idea what they are doing is because as a woman fleeing for her life and a "bastard son" neither would have had the experience of learning how to rule.  Jon did receive a lord's child's education, but Ned certainly had to be careful that it didn't seem like he was grooming him as his heir for a whole host of reasons.  FAegon grew up on a boat; he didn't grow up in the Royal Court of Westros.  He didn't observe Rhaegar ruling with the knowledge that he'd one day rule.  And unlike Dany and Jon he didn't grow up as an outcast and understand how the other half lives; he doesn't have empathy for them. 

And I very much doubt that we are going to have a story where Dany shows up and conquers Westros and everyone thinks she is wonderful.  She is after all a foreign invader.  I also doubt that Jon is going to get word of his heritage and everyone is going to suddenly bow to him as king because R+L=J.  That isn't how Westros works.  However, that is different from the discussion about whether FAegon is an interesting or good character.  FAegon is about as interesting as dishwater.  He isn't even a fun villain like Cersei.

As for the patriarchy, yes, Westros is a male dominated environment.  However, there are quite a few examples of strong female rulers during the Middle Ages and Renaissance.  We can start with Elizabeth I.  There are also Isabella the She Wolf, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Isabella of Castille, etc.  It was actually common for a wife to rule in her husband's stead while he was away on military campaign or a mother to rule as her son's regent if her husband fell in battle.  The lords' daughters wouldn't be taught martial skills, but they would be taught how to manage the estate and to render decisions and justice in their husband's name.