Aegon's absence is really noticeable now

[Iron Mother]

3 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

@Iron Mother

By that's precisely the issue - the right upbringing is not enough to create a perfect monarch. We saw that with Joffre and Tommen and numerous Targs. Look at Sansa's (a girl with perfect education as a lady) debut in KL. And helps, but ultimately it comes down to that prince's unique personality, personal experiences and above all requires experience. You can't go from zero to hero, but need to actually exercise decision making, administration and leadership skills and learn from your m mistakes. FAegon has never been in charge of anything and he has  preciously little time to learn. Even if you think he compares favourably with Jon/Dany/Robb from AGOT (and he lacks Jon and Dany's perceptiveness, Robb's military skills and sense of responsibility and their charisma that wins them friends easily), by now they are several hundred steps ahead of him.

Besides, the whole idea is an illusion - fAegon has missed on the main area of a princes education - actually living at court, interacting with the other members of the nobility, forging alliances and experiencing the political intrigue and governance for himself. He's never attended a Small Council meeting g to discuss important matters of state, or a war council, he's never sat next to his father/regent as he received his lords bannermen and administered justice. Most importantly, unlike a young lord/crown prince, he was never in charge of anything himself and hasn't hd an opportunity to cut hia teeth at being a leader in a controlled environment. He's in the Great Game now, and the great game is terrifying - and he knows nothing about it.

Gender plays no role in mybelief that fAegon is no perfect prince and I'm really not sure where you got that impression since I compared fAegon to both Dany and Jon. And I don't need to compare him to anybody to see him as the ultimate knight of summer with no real substance, I think his actions speak for themselves. Facing adversity is a part and parcel of being a leader, yet he gets visibly upset with Tyrion for telling him things he doesn't want to hear and cheating at a game. He decides to attack Westeros, a major undertaking with potentially fatal consequences , on the advice of a stranger all the while making it clear he's not really thinking about the consequences (sure, Dorne will join us! I don't really know all that much about the intricacies of the current political situation in Westeros, but let's ttack!). He dismisses Cersei who he knows nothing about just because she's a woman. He gives the GC an idea (one they want to hear), but he doesn't dominate the meeting. The actual strategy comes from other people. His contribution to battle planning is wanting to be in the van. Nor does he win the GC over - they've already been paid for by Varys.

Make what you will of Dany but Dany had no dragons in AGOT and she made the Dothraki respect her and was shown as perceptive and intelligent from her first chapter . Her dragons have yet to play a part in actual battle and have no until now been too young and small to really matter. They have helped obviously but by no means are they an instant win button. 

And how is Aegon any less a foreigner? He hasnt set foot in Westeros since he was an infant. And yes, like her he assumes he has the right to rule based on his lineage alone despite the fact that he has a lot less experienced with ruling than she does, none in fact. And if his reception is better, which it might be, that doesnt in any way make him more fit to rule or a better king. It just means that Varys is doing hs job.

None of these people are perfect.  Why do you discount that Aegon is the rightful heir?  Why do you keep saying ANYTHING Dany has experienced means anything to Westeros?   As a person, she's been effective at surviving and wielding her power (dragons) she has been very intelligent in obtaining the unsullied (again, that couldn't happen without dragons) she almost died outside qarth but saved by her dragons existence, I wouldn't call her a warrior.  When you take the horse away from Jon Snow, he gets buried in the pile like anyone else.  Can Dany fight?  Will she just continue to play on the idiocy of men while letting her immunity to fire save her life YET AGAIN?

Aegon is like 15 years old.  No one said he has achieved anything.  But he has been prepared FOR WESTEROS.  Daenerys has not at all in any way been prepared for WESTEROS.  She got prepared for the Khalassar, she got prepared against Xoron Doxos or whoever that guy was, she got prepared for her dragons when they hatched, she got prepared for Khal Pano sending her back to the Former Khal Wife Home, she got prepared for the slave owners, all of it means nothing to anyone in Westeros.

I say again, Westeros has no slaves, no Khalassar, no slave owners, no qarthian mystics, she has world knowledge when Westeros is a world away.

Aegon has a foundation for Westeros, and a very competent mentor in his life since he was a baby.  A Westerosi who raised him.  A live-in Septa and Maester.  They did everything right to prepare him FOR WESTEROS.  Dany has no such prep.  She's riding in on a big flaming dragon and IMO loose alliances.  They don't know her, they don't want dragons around, her accomplishments mean nothing to anyone in Westeros. 

Neither of them is perfect.  I would say a combo of both her experience and his training and legitimacy would be the best option.  THAT is why the book takes that route.  GRR wanted them to merge under a Targaryen banner and re-build House Targaryen.  I'm shocked... what if Tyrion wasn't there to teach Dany about the royal houses and alliances and banners?  She's flying blind.

 

[Iron Mother]

I also don't know that Dany has extremely capable leadership skills either.  Her dragons went out of control and killed people, she chopped of the guy's head who tried to help her movement in Mereen, and everyone hissed, she then locked UP the other dragons out of fear, She sits on that chair hearing supplicants and she can't even seem to make decisions.  She then leans in half--assed to open the fighting pits and marries THE HARPY HIMSELF.  The only decisions Dany knows is how to instill fear, to conquer and basically Mereen was just a testing ground!  She was like North Korea testing bombs so she could see if Westeros was ready to be taken.

Barriston is gone, Jorah the Andal is gone, if Tyrion wasn't there, her ass would be imploding.  She doesn't even hear Dhario half the time and he knows the lay of the land.  She can't even keep Mereen but she is going for Westeros?  And I do not believe for one moment that her show of brute force burning the masters' ships will scare them away once she is gone.  Is she gonna keep flying Drogon and the twins back and forth to Mereen in the magic time bubble to keep the peace?

[illinifan]

4 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

I also don't know that Dany has extremely capable leadership skills either.  Her dragons went out of control and killed people, she chopped of the guy's head who tried to help her movement in Mereen, and everyone hissed, she then locked UP the other dragons out of fear, She sits on that chair hearing supplicants and she can't even seem to make decisions.  She then leans in half--assed to open the fighting pits and marries THE HARPY HIMSELF.  The only decisions Dany knows is how to instill fear, to conquer and basically Mereen was just a testing ground!  She was like North Korea testing bombs so she could see if Westeros was ready to be taken.

Barriston is gone, Jorah the Andal is gone, if Tyrion wasn't there, her ass would be imploding.  She doesn't even hear Dhario half the time and he knows the lay of the land.  She can't even keep Mereen but she is going for Westeros?  And I do not believe for one moment that her show of brute force burning the masters' ships will scare them away once she is gone.  Is she gonna keep flying Drogon and the twins back and forth to Mereen in the magic time bubble to keep the peace?

Okay..  How about this.  Dany is a lousy ruler.  That is the whole point.  Martin was subverting the idea that somehow the hero is automatically a wonderful ruler.  That doesn't mean that FAegon is a good ruler.  

[Iron Mother]

Maid So Fair and the other person: I do not completely disagree with your reasoning.  Not at all.

I can say for the spectacle of the screen, ONE Targaryen - Dany - makes for good screen.  But the book contains the "meat" of GRR..... I enjoy both.  I'm glad Aegon was not in the show.  But I am glad and so very interested to see how the next book will flesh it out.

[Iron Mother]

5 minutes ago, illinifan said:

Okay..  How about this.  Dany is a lousy ruler.  That is the whole point.  Martin was subverting the idea that somehow the hero is automatically a wonderful ruler.  That doesn't mean that FAegon is a good ruler.  

They both have equitable traits to bring to this over-taking of Westeros.  Had (and in the book they might) aligned together, there would be a new Targaryen dynasty.  Tyrion in the book told Aegon to align with Dany except not on HER terms.  He recognizes how arrogant and wanton she can be about "I RULE" and if Aegon is her blood relation and raises banners first, she will fly to him in a familial alliance.  That's exactly from the book.  And makes a lot more sense.

But as I said, a flaming Dragon Queen who has been learning and suffering for the cause since episode one, it makes sense for her to be on the show alone as the Conqueror.  I buy that.  I also buy the books.  We are lucky to be getting dual leel service

I hope everyone reads  or starts reading.  Very different stories

[illinifan]

4 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

They both have equitable traits to bring to this over-taking of Westeros.  Had (and in the book they might) aligned together, there would be a new Targaryen dynasty.  Tyrion in the book told Aegon to align with Dany except not on HER terms.  He recognizes how arrogant and wanton she can be about "I RULE" and if Aegon is her blood relation and raises banners first, she will fly to him in a familial alliance.  That's exactly from the book.  And makes a lot more sense.

But as I said, a flaming Dragon Queen who has been learning and suffering for the cause since episode one, it makes sense for her to be on the show alone as the Conqueror.  I buy that.  I also buy the books.  We are lucky to be getting dual leel service

I hope everyone reads  or starts reading.  Very different stories

Actually, FAegon has no desireable traits other than to be a boring character whose story I'm somehow supposed to care about when it is introduced in Book 5 of a 7 Book series and whose basic story is the same as every Mexican telenovela.  And I am rooting for FAegon to be delicious Drogon snack food, not rule.  

And I doubt that the books will end with Dany on the Iron Throne in a happily ever after scene.  I think that she dies in childbirth at the end of the series myself.

[Iron Mother]

1 hour ago, illinifan said:

Actually, FAegon has no desireable traits other than to be a boring character whose story I'm somehow supposed to care about when it is introduced in Book 5 of a 7 Book series and whose basic story is the same as every Mexican telenovela.  And I am rooting for FAegon to be delicious Drogon snack food, not rule.  

And I doubt that the books will end with Dany on the Iron Throne in a happily ever after scene.  I think that she dies in childbirth at the end of the series myself.

It's great you desire certain characters as opposed to others.  It's fabulous you don't like the Tyrion adventure with turtles.  But a "desirable trait" according to you or anyone is irrelevant to a character's relevance in the story.  That means, something does not become irrelevant or boring just because you think it is.

Who is anyone to tell you it's wrong to want Drogon to consume FAegon?

I'm so glad we all have our own opinions and moreso that there are two versions of this story - book and TV.  I like both maybe equally for different reasons. 

Why is it MEXICAN novella?  Russian novellas are amazing... so are Gaelic ones. 

illinfan, may I call you friend?  Will you get my back in battle?  Unlike Tywin, I actually do sh!t Word Gold, I got you covered, sister.  If you're a guy, don't freak on me and call names for assuming you're a girl. 

Happy fireworking!  It is like watching Tower of the Hand burn and it was the only thing that made Cercei happy at that moment.  If you live abroad, take that as an American greeting   I hope you are Aussie.  I love them

[Iron Mother]

Tyrion I thought in the book whether he will broker some alliance between Aegon and Dany.  Since he was captured by Jorah and bringing him to her as a gift.

The WORST maybe single thing in the show is how Jorah and Tyrion end up as fighters in the pit and that's how he meets Dany.  That was so abysmal and so Jaime and Bronn.  Bronn must die.  Very soon.

[Maid So Fair]

@Iron Mother I don't believe he's the rightful heir because there are simply way too many hints in he books at him being fake and because I think the Blaxkfyre theory makes a lot more sense than the random baby switcheroo. But more importantly, I don't believe in the concept of a rightful heir. I don't think having the right bloodline or educational background makes you entitled to be the supreme ruler of thousands. For me to support a candidate they need to earn that position and Argon has done nothing to do so so far. 

He's also not 15. If he's who he says he is (and even if he isnt he'd have to be similar age) he's at least a year older than Jon/Robb/Dany which even in the books would make him around 17-18 and he'd be even older in the show with te aging up of characters. More damningly, he's older than all the other child main characters were at the beginning of their story when he starts his campaign.

You keep referencing Aegons superior education and knowledge of Westeros without quantifying it. What does he actually know? He's aware of the institutions, sure, but he doesn't know anybody there and other people are planning his military campaign so his knowledge of geography is moot. His dismissal of Cersei and belief in an automatic Dornish support show that his grasp of Westerosi politics is not so hot either. 

Mat the same time you dismiss Danys experiences spin exactly what a King does - leading military campaigns, administering a region, negotiating with foreign powers, making political compromises, quelling civil unrest. Making important decisions with far-reaching consequences and living with them. Just like Jon has. Whether you think she's been great at it isn't even relevant - it's the fact she's got very transferable experience doing these things, experience that unlike some book knowledge isn't easily learned or replaced. Dany has been playing the game of thrones since AGOT and all of it is very relevant. FAegon is just starting and he's not even a player but Varys'/JonCons pawn.

And as @illinifan said - even if you think Dany is just the worst, that doesn't make FAegon any better.

I think there are too many hints to the contrary to believe that GRRM will play the Perfect Prince (and I think he's going for deliberate irony with that monologue as Varys has basically just described Dany) straight and doing so would imho go against the grain of the story. But like you I'm interested to see where this goes in TWOW - but I'm not at all invested in his character and definitely won't be cheering him on. He's too late to the table and I don't find his character compelling.

[Iron Mother]

3 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

@Iron Mother I don't believe he's the rightful heir because there are simply way too many hints in he books at him being fake and because I think the Blaxkfyre theory makes a lot more sense than the random baby switcheroo. But more importantly, I don't believe in the concept of a rightful heir. I don't think having the right bloodline or educational background makes you entitled to be the supreme ruler of thousands. For me to support a candidate they need to earn that position and Argon has done nothing to do so so far. 

He's also not 15. If he's who he says he is (and even if he isnt he'd have to be similar age) he's at least a year older than Jon/Robb/Dany which even in the books would make him around 17-18 and he'd be even older in the show with te aging up of characters. More damningly, he's older than all the other child main characters were at the beginning of their story when he starts his campaign.

You keep referencing Aegons superior education and knowledge of Westeros without quantifying it. What does he actually know? He's aware of the institutions, sure, but he doesn't know anybody there and other people are planning his military campaign so his knowledge of geography is moot. His dismissal of Cersei and belief in an automatic Dornish support show that his grasp of Westerosi politics is not so hot either. 

Mat the same time you dismiss Danys experiences spin exactly what a King does - leading military campaigns, administering a region, negotiating with foreign powers, making political compromises, quelling civil unrest. Making important decisions with far-reaching consequences and living with them. Just like Jon has. Whether you think she's been great at it isn't even relevant - it's the fact she's got very transferable experience doing these things, experience that unlike some book knowledge isn't easily learned or replaced. Dany has been playing the game of thrones since AGOT and all of it is very relevant. FAegon is just starting and he's not even a player but Varys'/JonCons pawn.

And as @illinifan said - even if you think Dany is just the worst, that doesn't make FAegon any better.

I think there are too many hints to the contrary to believe that GRRM will play the Perfect Prince (and I think he's going for deliberate irony with that monologue as Varys has basically just described Dany) straight and doing so would imho go against the grain of the story. But like you I'm interested to see where this goes in TWOW - but I'm not at all invested in his character and definitely won't be cheering him on. He's too late to the table and I don't find his character compelling.

It doesn't matter what you think.  It matters what Westeros will think.  THEY want a male heir, not a female one.

Campaign?  I think of it as a plot hatched by others and he was raised into it.

I never said he was the Wisdom of Solomon.  I said he was raised in all the traditions of Westeros.  Does Dany know what a Septa is?

He has a conduit with Connington.  Plently of Houses would join with Connington who is vouging for Aegon.

I don't remember him dismissing Cercei.  I'm not sure what that is.

Dany did not do so well in all the things you mentioned, and most of it was achieved via her advisors. 

Daenerys has no experience for Westeros.  Let her rule Essos and Slaver Bay and The Shadow.  Everything she has learned and knows is wholly unapplicable to Westeros.  It enriched her as a person but not as anything to do with ruling Westeros.  It made her learn how to terrorize and strike fear.  You can do that anywhere.

Why do people keep saying Perfect Prince?  It is a young man who is fully trained for Westeros without real-world application.  Daenerys is the opposite: real world applications with no training whatsoever for Westeros - only for Essos.

"Late to the table" you confuse the show on TV is ending versus this could be the beginning of the middle for the story in the books.  The books are ever expanding characters and houses - leading to larger and larger scope - while the show is wrapping it up and cutting short MEGA plotlines from the book.  So Aegon being "late" is very ill-conceived myopathy on your part.  In the show, "The End" brings Tyrion to Mereen.  In the book, he's not even there yet.  SO many things that prove the book story is still in possible even infancy while the show went season for book and when it ran out of books, it cut the threads and created an ending.  Surely you see this?

[Chib]

I don't think D&D will make A to be king in the end if Martin wanted it to be B. So if fAegon is very important, he will appear no matter what. If he is not, then we won't see him on tivi. 

[Stag_legion]

2 minutes ago, Chib said:

I don't think D&D will make A to be king in the end if Martin wanted it to be B. So if fAegon is very important, he will appear no matter what. If he is not, then we won't see him on tivi. 

Just cause fAegon isn't king at the end of the series doesn't mean he isn't very important.

[Chib]

Just now, Stag_legion said:

Just cause fAegon isn't king at the end of the series doesn't mean he isn't very important.

As I have said, if he is important, he will appear no matter what. If he is not, then no fAegon. 

[Stag_legion]

19 minutes ago, Chib said:

As I have said, if he is important, he will appear no matter what. If he is not, then no fAegon. 

Important in what sense? to who will sit on the throne at the end? or to the overall story?

fAegon is unlikely to be the person on the throne at the end, but his importance to the overall plot and themes GRRM is working with will be undeniable.

GOT removed him from their series, because they couldn't handle an additional storyline and they also want the story to be as simplistic as can be to appeal to the biggest pool of audiences. In short make the series entirely about Dany, Jon and Tyrion and sideline the rest of the characters.

[Chib]

30 minutes ago, Stag_legion said:

Important in what sense? to who will sit on the throne at the end? or to the overall story?

fAegon is unlikely to be the person on the throne at the end, but his importance to the overall plot and themes GRRM is working with will be undeniable.

GOT removed him from their series, because they couldn't handle an additional storyline and they also want the story to be as simplistic as can be to appeal to the biggest pool of audiences. In short make the series entirely about Dany, Jon and Tyrion and sideline the rest of the characters.

 

are you sure FAegon will not appear in the show? They still can introduce him in season 7 and kill him at the beggining of season 8.

[illinifan]

31 minutes ago, Stag_legion said:

Important in what sense? to who will sit on the throne at the end? or to the overall story?

fAegon is unlikely to be the person on the throne at the end, but his importance to the overall plot and themes GRRM is working with will be undeniable.

GOT removed him from their series, because they couldn't handle an additional storyline and they also want the story to be as simplistic as can be to appeal to the biggest pool of audiences. In short make the series entirely about Dany, Jon and Tyrion and sideline the rest of the characters.

And if he was important to the overall story, he would be in the show.  The fact that Dorne and Euron are in the show suggest that they have greater importance than FAegon and the endgame.

[Einheri]

The only scenario where I can see fAegon appearing on the show is if HBO somehow manages to squeeze more episodes out of D&D.

[aFeastForDragons]

Whoever sits on the throne at the end is a terrible way to judge a characters importance to the story and the story as a whole. The end of the story doesn't interest me at all. By that logic you could cut out the other kings, Stannis, Renly, Balon, and Robb because they all die and don't make it to the end to sit on the throne. 

 

Aegon's being cut because they don't have time and there would be way to much going on and the story would get too complicated. Same reason they cut out so many other plots and characters. 

[Maid So Fair]

5 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

It doesn't matter what you think.  It matters what Westeros will think.  THEY want a male heir, not a female one.

Campaign?  I think of it as a plot hatched by others and he was raised into it.

I never said he was the Wisdom of Solomon.  I said he was raised in all the traditions of Westeros.  Does Dany know what a Septa is?

He has a conduit with Connington.  Plently of Houses would join with Connington who is vouging for Aegon.

I don't remember him dismissing Cercei.  I'm not sure what that is.

Dany did not do so well in all the things you mentioned, and most of it was achieved via her advisors. 

Daenerys has no experience for Westeros.  Let her rule Essos and Slaver Bay and The Shadow.  Everything she has learned and knows is wholly unapplicable to Westeros.  It enriched her as a person but not as anything to do with ruling Westeros.  It made her learn how to terrorize and strike fear.  You can do that anywhere.

Why do people keep saying Perfect Prince?  It is a young man who is fully trained for Westeros without real-world application.  Daenerys is the opposite: real world applications with no training whatsoever for Westeros - only for Essos.

"Late to the table" you confuse the show on TV is ending versus this could be the beginning of the middle for the story in the books.  The books are ever expanding characters and houses - leading to larger and larger scope - while the show is wrapping it up and cutting short MEGA plotlines from the book.  So Aegon being "late" is very ill-conceived myopathy on your part.  In the show, "The End" brings Tyrion to Mereen.  In the book, he's not even there yet.  SO many things that prove the book story is still in possible even infancy while the show went season for book and when it ran out of books, it cut the threads and created an ending.  Surely you see this?

Westerosi don't want Targ restoration at all - this was lampshades back in book 1. There are no xommoners secretly weaving Targ flags in their basement and the nobles follow their self-interest and the lesser ones their LP. You're making in sound as if they will just hand over the throne to him because he's so awesome. This is not the case. He will have to fight for it and they will oppose him at every turn, militarily and politically. The fact he has little proof of his legitimacy won't help. JonCon has never been all that well-known and he's been portrayed as a broken alcoholic in exile for years. And his word is no proof of anything as he wasn't there. People will believe hat they want to believe. Those that do join him will try to manipulate him to win favours or might betray him later. He's not ready. He's never been in a situation like this in his life. If Dany takes te throne it won't be because people love her so much - she will take it by force and that's where her experience comes in.

You say Dany has no experience in Westeros. FAegon has no experience full stop. As you say, his campaign for the throne is being plotted by other people with him little more than a figure head. He's on the way to becoming a puppet King - as per the Mummers Dragon prophecy. 

'Who's left to oppose us in Westeros? A woman.' - Cersei. Now, sure, Cersei is an idiot but fArgon doesn't know that. He dismisses her just because she's a woman. Just as it never crossed his mind Dany might have a mind of her own.

And of course she knows what a septa is. She speaks the Common Tongue and spent a part of her childhood being raised by a Westerosi nobleman. She's had more experience with hardship (Varys believable thisiimportnat) than him and she's only where she is now as a result of her resilience, strength of will and determination. Dragons helped, sure, but the dragons didn't help her survive the Dothraki and the Red Waste, didn't win her military victories for her and didn't make her more capable of ruling. She's been working on her skills since AGOT. It is simply false to say what she learned is useless in Westeros - there are regional idiosyncrasies, yes, but most of the skills are universal. You still need someone who is not afraid to take risks, is intelligent and perceptive, who can recognise good counsel but able to make independent decisions. She has dealt with political enemies, conquered on the field of battle, manipulated her enemies into underestimating her and is used to dealing with immensely powerful people and standing her ground. Aegon is an unknown entity and from what we've seen doesn't show much promise.

Lqte to the table is a fact. He appears in book 5 out of 7 (and would appear even later in the TV show but it's unlikely he'll be cast at this point). This is objectively late in the series - we're gearing up to the end game at this point. I have no reason to care for a character coming in this late when I'm already invested in dozens of others. I feel this is one of GRRMs rare blunders and I'm not the only one. And I felt this way since I read ADWD, which was years before Tyrion got anywhere near Meereen in the show.

 

 

 

 

[KingofIce]

I know this idea is really reaching. I do not remember where I read that Aegon was supposedly in Oldtown, but couldn't the show have Sam find somewhere to have his family stay and not know that they are with Aegon . Then have him give Aegon his family sword in return for letting his family stay with him since they are not welcome at the Citadel after learning who he really is.