purple-eyes Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I know they have budget issue. But where are those rose petals in Lyanna's bed and hands and room? I do not think roses are that expensive in Spain or wherever they made this scene, even those which are dyed in blue. Did D&D just forget about it? That room is supposed to have many roses (a room smell of roses), and she was supposed to hold rose petals of that garland at her death, which are not only the symbol of Lyanna's great beauty, but also the symbol of the beautiful love affair between Rhaegar and her. After all, the whole story started from this rose garland, right? we know GRRM made a big deal of these roses for TOJ scene in the book. A storm of blue rose petals, dark rose petals flew from her hands, smell of roses, etc. etc. This made me think that these roses may not exist at all, it is Ned who imagined these roses in his fever dream. Maybe Ned was always haunted by that rose garland because his whole family died for that. Then he dreamed about it whenever he dreamed about Lyanna. Now I felt so silly that I used to spend some time to discuss with some guys on this forum about how Rhaegar and KG can get winter roses for Lyanna in Dorne. Maybe Lyanna did not have any rose there. After all it is an abandoned tower in a huge red mountain. It is way too inconvenient to collect fresh roses from somewhere. Another thing is about her father and brother. Ned met Lyanna first time in around two years, and Lyanna is dying. They had time to talk about water and master and bravery blablabla, then they did not have even one word about Brandon and Rickard? Ned claimed that Lyanna wanted to be buried besides Brandon and Rickard, so he lied again? it looks like Lyanna never said that. No wonder lady dustin was angry about it. Lyanna did not ask Ned to take her bones back. It is Ned who chose to bring her body back and left his friends and lords in the desert. But I am glad that it is almost confirmed that Wylla is there. Please do not say that is Ashara. Ashara is not a handmaiden of Lyanna. And Ned would not look so cool if he met Ashara there. And Ashara would not be so cool either after Ned and Howland killed her brother right there outside the tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I think the rose petal thing is just simply the show cutting out elements that served no purpose to the show. As we all know, GRRM loves symbolism and little details like that (as it subtly helps build the readers imagination on how much Rhaegar loved Lyanna). Unfortunately these little story tidbits are often tossed aside by D&D. As for Wylla, I do agree with you on that I think it's important they showed her, because in the books, it also is widely speculated that there was a wet nurse in the TOJ with Lyanna, which would mean there are more people out there that can confirm Jon's parentage other then HR. Ashara Dayne doesn't even exist in the show. She's never been mentioned either (I don't think), so I can't see it being her. Besides, I would find it hard to believe that Arthur Daynes sister would be a common wet nurse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Kragin Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Or because they would have been too telling. We haven't heard Lyanna's words to Ned. So D&D weren't ready to reveal Jon's father yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSmallOther Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 hour ago, purple-eyes said: I know they have budget issue. But where are those rose petals in Lyanna's bed and hands and room? I do not think roses are that expensive in Spain or wherever they made this scene, even those which are dyed in blue. Did D&D just forget about it? That room is supposed to have many roses (a room smell of roses), and she was supposed to hold rose petals of that garland at her death, which are not only the symbol of Lyanna's great beauty, but also the symbol of the beautiful love affair between Rhaegar and her. After all, the whole story started from this rose garland, right? we know GRRM made a big deal of these roses for TOJ scene in the book. A storm of blue rose petals, dark rose petals flew from her hands, smell of roses, etc. etc. This made me think that these roses may not exist at all, it is Ned who imagined these roses in his fever dream. Maybe Ned was always haunted by that rose garland because his whole family died for that. Then he dreamed about it whenever he dreamed about Lyanna. Now I felt so silly that I used to spend some time to discuss with some guys on this forum about how Rhaegar and KG can get winter roses for Lyanna in Dorne. Maybe Lyanna did not have any rose there. After all it is an abandoned tower in a huge red mountain. It is way too inconvenient to collect fresh roses from somewhere. Another thing is about her father and brother. Ned met Lyanna first time in around two years, and Lyanna is dying. They had time to talk about water and master and bravery blablabla, then they did not have even one word about Brandon and Rickard? Ned claimed that Lyanna wanted to be buried besides Brandon and Rickard, so he lied again? it looks like Lyanna never said that. No wonder lady dustin was angry about it. Lyanna did not ask Ned to take her bones back. It is Ned who chose to bring her body back and left his friends and lords in the desert. But I am glad that it is almost confirmed that Wylla is there. Please do not say that is Ashara. Ashara is not a handmaiden of Lyanna. And Ned would not look so cool if he met Ashara there. And Ashara would not be so cool either after Ned and Howland killed her brother right there outside the tower. All that stuff with roses have a lot of symbolysm in it, they are not there only for beauty. Show doesn't concern itself much with all these symbols, it's more books' stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 34 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said: I think the rose petal thing is just simply the show cutting out elements that served no purpose to the show. As we all know, GRRM loves symbolism and little details like that (as it subtly helps build the readers imagination on how much Rhaegar loved Lyanna). Unfortunately these little story tidbits are often tossed aside by D&D. As for Wylla, I do agree with you on that I think it's important they showed her, because in the books, it also is widely speculated that there was a wet nurse in the TOJ with Lyanna, which would mean there are more people out there that can confirm Jon's parentage other then HR. Ashara Dayne doesn't even exist in the show. She's never been mentioned either (I don't think), so I can't see it being her. Besides, I would find it hard to believe that Arthur Daynes sister would be a common wet nurse. LF specifically mentioned winter rose in his talk with sansa. i think it is still important. maybe They do not want us to relate lyanna to rhaegar by using roses there? or they just want to make things more realistic? considering they are isolated in a broken tower and lyanna heard a lot of bad news about her family, i guess she did not have that mood to enjoy pretty flowers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 26 minutes ago, TheSmallOther said: All that stuff with roses have a lot of symbolysm in it, they are not there only for beauty. Show doesn't concern itself much with all these symbols, it's more books' stuff. it symbolizes the great beauty of lyanna and also her love affair with rhaegar. she is the most beautiful rose in the world and their love was closely related to that winter rose garland. and it was mentioned by LF and also appeared when Darrion talked with Dany. it is hard to believe they did not include this in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 36 minutes ago, Ranger Kragin said: Or because they would have been too telling. We haven't heard Lyanna's words to Ned. So D&D weren't ready to reveal Jon's father yet. Even the people who never read the books have figured it out by now. The hardest part to figure out was that Lyanna died in childbirth, the rest is easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattnj81 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 In the moment that Ned is handed the baby, there is a vase with flowers in it on the windowsill behind him. Were those the winter roses? Kinda hard to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Lang Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I don't think the Blue Winter Roses are ever meant to be taken literally in the books. They're just symbolic. We only ever see the TOJ in a fever dream, it's not literal. As per Wiki: "blue roses are traditionally associated with "blue" royal blood, and thus the blue rose can also denote regal majesty and splendor". It's obvious to us now because we all know R + L = J but without the symbolism of the blue rose we might never have figured it out. They are just a clue to the puzzle. Also HBO have released an infographic that categorically states Rhaegar is Jon's father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 40 minutes ago, Daniel Lang said: I don't think the Blue Winter Roses are ever meant to be taken literally in the books. They're just symbolic. We only ever see the TOJ in a fever dream, it's not literal. As per Wiki: "blue roses are traditionally associated with "blue" royal blood, and thus the blue rose can also denote regal majesty and splendor". It's obvious to us now because we all know R + L = J but without the symbolism of the blue rose we might never have figured it out. They are just a clue to the puzzle. Also HBO have released an infographic that categorically states Rhaegar is Jon's father. according to the story of bael, winter rose clearly represented a stark woman. bael asked a winter rose but in stead he took the stark daughter. plucked the most beautiful flower, something like that. margarey was also widely called as little rose. i guess golden rose is her symbol. in rhaegar's case, it symbolized lyanna. for me, it is not a symbol for royal blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Yeah I related them to symbolism in Ned's fever dream. It might have been nice to see some but I don't think it was necessary. I would have liked the show to reveal a bit more backstory visually through the memories of Howland Reed before the ToJ reveal. That way the ToJ scene would have had added poignancy and clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben GT Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 When Dany was tripping wasn't the blue rose growing at the wall brought up too? IE Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bini Bini Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 A rose, blue or otherwise, might be confused with the Tyrells for casual viewers especially that a lot of them died in the same episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hyle Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 54 minutes ago, Bini Bini said: A rose, blue or otherwise, might be confused with the Tyrells for casual viewers especially that a lot of them died in the same episode. Exactly. This is the TV show's interpretation. They need to be careful regarding confusing symbolism for the non readers. Also, just because in the TV scene Ned and her don't talk about where she wants to be buried in no way means they didn't have this conversation in the book and it was just a product of Ned's imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 5 hours ago, Ranger Kragin said: Or because they would have been too telling. We haven't heard Lyanna's words to Ned. So D&D weren't ready to reveal Jon's father yet. They weren't willing to reveal that Jon is legitimate, yet. As mentioned up thread, Rhaegar has been revealed as Jon's father. The debate cycles around Jon's legitimacy, which honestly, is confirmed by the defense mounted by the Kingsguard. In the books it is even clearer, because they say that they must fight to the death because of their vow. The screenplay has revealed the vow, through Brienne, that has never been revealed in the books. I do want to bring up that there are two women present when Ned enters. One has long braided hair, and may be high-born. We only see her once, and only in silhouette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightflame princess Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 18 hours ago, purple-eyes said: I know they have budget issue. But where are those rose petals in Lyanna's bed and hands and room? I do not think roses are that expensive in Spain or wherever they made this scene, even those which are dyed in blue. Did D&D just forget about it? That room is supposed to have many roses (a room smell of roses), and she was supposed to hold rose petals of that garland at her death, which are not only the symbol of Lyanna's great beauty, but also the symbol of the beautiful love affair between Rhaegar and her. After all, the whole story started from this rose garland, right? we know GRRM made a big deal of these roses for TOJ scene in the book. A storm of blue rose petals, dark rose petals flew from her hands, smell of roses, etc. etc. This made me think that these roses may not exist at all, it is Ned who imagined these roses in his fever dream. Maybe Ned was always haunted by that rose garland because his whole family died for that. Then he dreamed about it whenever he dreamed about Lyanna. Now I felt so silly that I used to spend some time to discuss with some guys on this forum about how Rhaegar and KG can get winter roses for Lyanna in Dorne. Maybe Lyanna did not have any rose there. After all it is an abandoned tower in a huge red mountain. It is way too inconvenient to collect fresh roses from somewhere. Another thing is about her father and brother. Ned met Lyanna first time in around two years, and Lyanna is dying. They had time to talk about water and master and bravery blablabla, then they did not have even one word about Brandon and Rickard? Ned claimed that Lyanna wanted to be buried besides Brandon and Rickard, so he lied again? it looks like Lyanna never said that. No wonder lady dustin was angry about it. Lyanna did not ask Ned to take her bones back. It is Ned who chose to bring her body back and left his friends and lords in the desert. But I am glad that it is almost confirmed that Wylla is there. Please do not say that is Ashara. Ashara is not a handmaiden of Lyanna. And Ned would not look so cool if he met Ashara there. And Ashara would not be so cool either after Ned and Howland killed her brother right there outside the tower. I don't personally think Ned imagined them, the show just didn't emphasize them. Actually they didn't use that symbolism at all really. It might have made more sense to non readers if they had. It's just a book thing. But I agree, it would have made it better. Also, in the show Ned never says that lyanna asked him to bring her remains home, that's from the books. In season one he tells Robert that she belongs in the crypts because she is a stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha 2014 Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I can't remember if Ned did, in the books, promise Lyanna that he would care for her son. But in the show, I felt rather sorry for Lyanna, who apparently died without at least the certainty that Ned would protect and care for her baby; since he never did give his promise. And what was with Lyanna's whispering? After 20 years (for book readers) and 6 years (for TV show watchers) of wondering who Jon's parents are, we still don't hear who Lyanna's baby-daddy is? I'm going with the theory, apparently confirmed by some flow chart put out by the show, that Rhaegar sired Jon (as opposed to Aerys, Robert, Arthur Dayne, or Ned himself), but it would have been nice to hear it said on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaysman Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 On 6/30/2016 at 11:59 PM, Raksha 2014 said: I can't remember if Ned did, in the books, promise Lyanna that he would care for her son. But in the show, I felt rather sorry for Lyanna, who apparently died without at least the certainty that Ned would protect and care for her baby; since he never did give his promise. In the books it is a vague thing. He only remembers his sister saying "Promise me Ned". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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