The KITN's Court

[illinifan]

6 hours ago, Asvpxkvng said:

Happy as in happy for the fans who love both of these characters. Yea Jon would probably flip lol I forgot to think about that. Either I doubt GRRM trope breakin self would even let it get that far. Just a few minutes ago I got to thinking how perfectly Jons story arc follows the traditional heroes arc. GRRM surely has a magnificent way to break it. I personally believe there will be some sort of devastating loss against the WW and Jon will commit suicide. Perhaps with a shard of dragon glass to the heart. Or a regular sword. Hehehe wouldn't that be about a bitch. Anyway ignore my crackpot theory or discuss it if you'd like  

They win the war and it seems like a happy fairy tale ending (even with the yucky Targ incest.)  Then Dany dies in childbirth.  

[Lord Lannister]

Why do so many assume a Northern king should have a court similar to a southern king's?

[of man and wolf]

Shouldnt they hold out for Bran? Or at least tell the Northern lords Bran is still alive? Sansa knows he's not dead, at least not by Theons hands, and Samn told Jon they were alive didnt he? Plus Jon saw Shaggy and Summer attack and kill some wildlings as he was escaping them.

 

Shouldnt Bran be KITN?

[sj4iy]

On 6/30/2016 at 9:15 AM, mattnj81 said:

You could make a case for all of them but Tormund. He isn't trained in actually tactical swordplay. Doesn't mean he isn't a capable fighter, but he isn't who you want training the next generation. 

Jon appoints Leathers Master-at-Arms at Castle Black in the books and he's not trained in tactical swordplay.  

[blckp]

On 7/1/2016 at 5:30 AM, Eddard the Builder said:

House Manderly can obviously raise more levies than House Stark.  They command the only port in the North as well as the only city.  Manderly's bannermen consist of over a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights.  I fully believe that peak House Manderly can field 10,000 men.  But I also acknowledge he lost 1500 men during TWOFKs so he's likely down to 8,000-9,000 men.  Also as has been stated already the North's military strength is 45,000 only 18,000 went south with Robb, even if all those men were butchered at the Red wedding (which we know is false I'd wager at least 5,000 of them returned home, part Bolton part Karstark in the books.  But likely even more in the show considering the Umbers were not at the Red wedding. Even with absolute casualties of the Bolton army that's still 25-27,000 men.  

Ramsay never called his banners.  He only was using bolton men and the small amount of men that went with Lords Umber and Karstark.  We know for a fact that the Karstarks have a bare minimum of 2,300 men intact from the war.  Show!Umbers also should have a relatively intact force considering Robb sent Greatjon to liberate the westerlands and was not at the Red Wedding.

The last point I'd make is that 200 years ago Torrhen Stark raised 30,000 men.  With the same logic assuming 18,000 are dead, Jon should be able to raise, minimally, 12,000 men.  

And Yohn Royce can be seen drawing his sword and yelling King in the North as well as the Northern Lords.  I'm sure he'd much prefer to follow a son of Ned Stark's than Littlefinger. 

if manderly had 8k man how come bolton shits all over manderly with 5k man? makes sense to you

even if the north had that 45k soldiers from age of heroes now...lol

you seems to forget they fought 2 war, robert rebellion and greyjoy rebellion

if robb had 10k soldiers had at home? how come he desperately needed soldiers? and outnumbered greatly .alsways trying to make alliance with others? such as balon greyjoy,renly baratheon,walder frey, vale,etc . couldn't he just call those soldiers at home? ..and how come ironborns invaded the north? and captured it,

you seems to also forgot after robbs death the north has been fighting with ironborns till now,  and took back some castles with help of boltons

no need to pull numbers out of ass

all north houses soldiers number is clear/obvious except manderly , it was said by both Jon snow and Ramsay

all noth small houses combined = umber and karstak = 1k

only manderly left which can be speculated

manderly army was slaughtered at red wedding

manderly thought they had no chance to beat boltons even with jon snows 2.4 soldiers so they should have less than 2k

and manderly is one of big houses along with umber,karstark, so manderly should have at least 500 soldiers

its somewhere between 500-2000 , considering umber and karstaks they probably has same amount soldiers 500 or little more

so the north has 2k soldiers, at worst 1.5k, at best 3k soldier

Yohn Royce cheered for jon snow but when did he pledge his service to starks? if pledge his service to another region ruler it would be betrayal and he would be executed already ,robin arryn is now helping to the north but he is not vassal, he is ruler of vale without dragons doubt house arryn would bent to anyone

 

[Eddard the Builder]

1 hour ago, blckp said:

if manderly had 8k man how come bolton shits all over manderly with 5k man? makes sense to you

Bolton never shits over Manderly.  Additionally the Hightowers have more men than Highgarden but still bend the knee to them.

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even if the north had that 45k soldiers from age of heroes now...lol

The 30,000 men raised by King Torrhen I was 200 years ago during Aegon's Conquest.    And its not from the Age of Heroes its from the sourcebook released  A Game of Thrones RPG and Resource Book numbers in it were approved by Martin.

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you seems to forget they fought 2 war, robert rebellion and greyjoy rebellion

Robert's Rebellion only fielded at most 10,000 soldiers from the North, the greyjoy rebellion was a stomp of all the kingdoms vs the Iron Islands. 

 

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if robb had 10k soldiers had at home? how come he desperately needed soldiers? and outnumbered greatly .alsways trying to make alliance with others? such as balon greyjoy,renly baratheon,walder frey, vale,etc . couldn't he just call those soldiers at home? ..and how come ironborns invaded the north? and captured it,

Books explain this.

"Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father’s fleet."- Eddard Stark

Additionally men were needed to collect the harvest.  Now winter has come, the harvest is done.  

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you seems to also forgot after robbs death the north has been fighting with ironborns till now,  and took back some castles with help of boltons

no need to pull numbers out of ass

all north houses soldiers number is clear/obvious except manderly , it was said by both Jon snow and Ramsay

all noth small houses combined = umber and karstak = 1k

Umbers and Karstarks cannot equal 1,000 men.  There's no evidence they sent their full strength to support Ramsay and what's more the books alone put Karstark's numbers at 2,300.  The show has Greatjon absent from the Red Wedding.  When Robb executed Lord Rickard Tywin stated he lost half his army.

 

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only manderly left which can be speculated

manderly army was slaughtered at red wedding

manderly thought they had no chance to beat boltons even with jon snows 2.4 soldiers so they should have less than 2k

and manderly is one of big houses along with umber,karstark, so manderly should have at least 500 soldiers

its somewhere between 500-2000 , considering umber and karstaks they probably has same amount soldiers 500 or little more

so the north has 2k soldiers, at worst 1.5k, at best 3k soldier

Yohn Royce cheered for jon snow but when did he pledge his service to starks? if pledge his service to another region ruler it would be betrayal and he would be executed already ,robin arryn is now helping to the north but he is not vassal, he is ruler of vale without dragons doubt house arryn would bent to anyone

Just read this.  Manderly only sent 1,500 men.  The only reason the Show!Karstarks and Show!Umbers were at an advantage vs. the rest of the North is neither of them had forces at the Red Wedding.  

Canonically the North can raise 45,000 men.  Low end 22,000 high end 27,000.  Jon can likely raise a minimum of 12,000 men.  I did a calc in another thread:

And no bloody way can the entire North raise less than the Karstark army now.

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Some of this is based off Book Calcs + Estimation for the total military strength of the North.

At full strength the North can raise an absolute maximum of 45,000 soldiers.

Robb Stark left Winterfell with 12,000 which later surges to 18,000.  This force is later bolstered to 22,000 with House Frey joining them.

Early in Season 3 Tywin states Robb's army is at 20,000 strong, but this includes the Riverlands forces who in the book have some 11,000 troops under Edmure.  Later in the Season Tywin states that he's lost half his army.  I'd wager this is why:

Show!Oxcross has the Northerners inflicting 5:1 casualties rather than it being a complete obliteration.  10,000 Lannisters at Oxcross means 2,000 casualties + 2,000 casualties at the Green Fork + -4,000 troops from the Frey's + -2,300 from the Karstarks = 10,300 forces "lost", roughly half his army.

The 20,000 figure is with the Riverlands army.

Red Wedding = the annihilation of ~16,000 of that force.  Boltons return with ~4,000 men from the original Northern Host. 

So of 45,000, Northern casualties were ~12,000 Stark Loyalists (Taking into account of the original 18,000, 2,300 left with the Karstarks and ~4,000 were Bolton traitors)

Keep in mind that the Show!Umbers were likely roughly intact given that the Greatjon was tasked with lifting the siege of the Riverlands and was not attending the Red Wedding, I'd imagine he sent roughly 2,000 soldiers with that.

Leaving 33,000 men in the North. 5,000 Bolton, 3,000 Karstark, 2,500 Umber, 10,000 Manderly = 20,500 men>12,500 men.  Thus Ramsay's claim that the Umbers, Karstarks and Manderlies have more men than all the other houses combined.

Unknown Casualties at the First Battle of Winterfell

6,000 men wiped out at the Second Battle of Winterfell. 

Northern Army remaining- 27,000 high end, considering the Iron Islanders raids though I wouldn't be surprised if another 5,000+ were lost in the raids.  Leaving roughly 22,000 low end.

Jon can likely muster an army of 10-15,000 with the surviving Northerners, augmented by some 20,000 Knights of the Vale and you have 30-35,000.

 

[Kytheros]

During the Dance of Dragons, Cregan Stark brought 30,000 men south, IIRC.

 

As for why Robb only brought nearly 20k south with him? The North is supposed to be huge, and it takes time to gather its full strength, especially when they don't have the teleporters that have apparently become common in Show!Westeros. That 20k was the amount Robb could gather up in a hurry. Mustering an army in a feudal culture takes time, even if you use only sworn knights and men-at-arms, and don't bother to muster militias out of peasant levies.

[mattnj81]

On 7/1/2016 at 4:47 PM, sj4iy said:

Jon appoints Leathers Master-at-Arms at Castle Black in the books and he's not trained in tactical swordplay.  

I actually forgot all about that. Doesn't make it a good idea though.

[nothatso]

On 7/1/2016 at 1:19 PM, of man and wolf said:

Shouldnt they hold out for Bran? Or at least tell the Northern lords Bran is still alive? Sansa knows he's not dead, at least not by Theons hands, and Samn told Jon they were alive didnt he? Plus Jon saw Shaggy and Summer attack and kill some wildlings as he was escaping them.

 

Shouldnt Bran be KITN?

No. 

There was a Stark in the room and they still selected the bastard deserter over her. Bran had no part in the capture of Winterfell or the preceding campaign to find support, in which Jon was presented as the leader the entire time. The selection of him as king should illustrate the lords of The North give little care to legal technicalities. Jon is enough of a Stark and a leader for them to name him King in the North. Further, I find it highly doubtful that Bran would even want to take the position from Jon. There's also the whole issue (at least in the books, I don't recall if the show mentioned it specifically) of Bran not being able to father an heir, which is inviting instability later.

Isaac Hempstead Wright on how he thinks Bran will react:

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If Bran makes it back to Winterfell, he's the true-born son of Ned and Catelyn. Would he want the title of King in the North?

I don't think he would even be interested. I think he knows it's not for him. He's not a leader, as such. He's like an uber maester, as it were. He has all of this all-knowing power, knowing everything about everything. I think he would be a fantastic hand or assistant to Jon, but I think the second he got there, he would say, "Look, whoever's the leader? It doesn't matter, as long as we can coordinate ourselves to sort ourselves out before this massive ice king comes to kill us and the dragons start messing us up."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-finale-stark-realization-906437

Of course Isaac wouldn't know for sure at this point, he doesn't write the character, but he is more intimate with the character's motivations than anyone outside of the writers. At least for the show version of Bran anyway.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

1 hour ago, nothatso said:

No. 

There was a Stark in the room and they still selected the bastard deserter over her. Bran had no part in the capture of Winterfell or the preceding campaign to find support, in which Jon was presented as the leader the entire time. The selection of him as king should illustrate the lords of The North give little care to legal technicalities. Jon is enough of a Stark and a leader for them to name him King in the North. Further, I find it highly doubtful that Bran would even want to take the position from Jon. There's also the whole issue (at least in the books, I don't recall if the show mentioned it specifically) of Bran not being able to father an heir, which is inviting instability later.

Isaac Hempstead Wright on how he thinks Bran will react:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-finale-stark-realization-906437

Of course Isaac wouldn't know for sure at this point, he doesn't write the character, but he is more intimate with the character's motivations than anyone outside of the writers. At least for the show version of Bran anyway.

I like the idea of the 4 Stark children ruling as a family/team but they have get use to each other again first.