Would have Renly spared Joffrey, Myrcella & Tommen?

[Oakhearts head]

So, kind of a straightforward question. For this to come into fruition, three events need to unfold in succession :


- Renly is never shadow babied.
- Stannis is defeated.
- Renly's bannermen are able to get Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen into their custody.

So, assuming all of these events came to pass, what would have Renly done with the kids? Also, would have Jaime, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, Kevan, etc. been safe?


On a side note, what are your views on the possibility of Renly as King? IMO, while not entirely unjustified, he does kind of get a hard time. To be sure, Renly is young and vain (and it is hard to defend insulting Shireen), I do feel Renly was by far the safest option coming out of the WOTFK.

Joffrey was of course a psychopath, and I'm undecided on whether Stannis would have been a great or terrible King. There is no middle ground on that guy. Renly, with a capable Hand (ideally Willas Tyrell) seems like a guy who understands his strengths and weaknesses, and can settle disputes with as little blood shed as possible. A capable King during times of peace.

Just my two cents.

[LordImp]

Joffrey no. Tommen and Myrcella maybe . But i guess Myrcella still would have been sent to Dorne and would have been there when Renly attacked . And  Cersei might have poisoned Tommen if Renly took the city . So i think Joff would have been the only one Renly killed . 

Edit: I think all the grown up Lannisters would have been killed if Renly got his hands on them. 

[Boarsbane]

Joffrey - no

Tommen and Myrcella - maybe. Cersei would need to confess their true parentage and Tommen would likely have to take the Black while Myrcella joined the Silent Sisters. Joffrey would be impossible, he'd never forsake his claim while the other two are more easily controlled. Cersei is dead regardless, Tyrion might be too or Renly might keep him as an extra hostage against Tywin (not a good one obviously ), he'd kill Jaime too if the Starks and Tullys don't first. Tywin and Kevan could probably get pardons if they submit to Renly, they're still a dangerous force and Renly would probably like to ascend the throne with as little fighting as possible, with Joffrey dead and the other 2 dead or indisposed there is nothing left for Tywin to fight for and the Lannister influence at court will be gone obviously so he shouldn't be a huge threat to Renly in peace time.

[dariopatke]

Well everyone already said it, Joff no and Tommen and Myrcella likely.

But what would he do when he got Sansa? Would he just return her to Starks? Marry to Willas?

[lancerman]

Joff's only chance is if Ned sided with Renly EARLY on. If the war breaks out, Joff has to die.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think there are two key factors here:

1) What happened to Stannis

2) What happened to Cersei.

Renly was pals with Littlefinger, so, once he has KL he has the Reach, Stormlands, and a path to the Vale. Dorne, the Westerlands, the Riverland, and the Vale are his main obstacles. The best way to win Stark and Martell loyalty and homage is by giving them vengeance, meaning the Mountain, Ser Armory Lorch, Jeoffry, and Tywin at least. That leaves Tyrion Tommen Myrcella Cersei Kevan (and his get) and then the Frey's as the legal line of succession for Casterly rock. Tyrion is unmarriageable, capable, and loyal to his family. Cersei is Cersei. Kevan is already married, and loyal to his family, while Kevan's children would frown upon serving the man who killed their father. So, assuming he does the necessary killing, the line of succession becomes Tommen Myrcella Cersei and then the Freys.

If Stannis is alive, he won't be able to shut up about the abominations, making them poor candidates for marriage. If Stannis is dead, Tommen and Myrcella can totally have just been Kevan or Lancel's kids, get legitimized, be raised at Renly's court, and married off as valuable pawns.

If Renly decides to kill Tommen and Myrcella, then the Rock goes to Cersei. If she's in his power that's great, because he can then sell Casterly Rock to the highest bidder. However, if she's escaped to Essos, that's not great. If he has to hire assassins to kill her, that means the Freys claim the rock, and Renly either makes an uncertain vassal or a dangerous enemy. The upside to a Frey Warden of the west is that it makes bringing Robb to kneel easier.

So, in short, I think it's complicated, but that if Stannis is alive and Cersei is his are his captives, they likely die, whereas if Cersei has escaped and Stannis is dead, they likely live.

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

Well everyone already said it, Joff no and Tommen and Myrcella likely.

But what would he do when he got Sansa? Would he just return her to Starks? Marry to Willas?

If he gets Sansa, she almost certainly marries Willas.

[The Wolves]

No he wouldn't have spared Tommen, Myrcella, or Joffery. 

Renly was arguing in favor of killing Dany and her unborn kid in AGOT just so Robert could keep his ugly seat. He sure would have killed Cersei's kids just to keep the throne. They would have been a threat to his power. 

[Winter Rose Crown]

He watched those 3 grow up thinking he was their uncle. He wasn't a psychopath like joffrey, I think he would have spared them because they are young kids he'd known since birth. It isn't like Robert and rhaegar's kids, Renly actually knows these kids.

 

Well, except joffrey. Joffrey would die.

[King Ned Stark]

10 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

No he wouldn't have spared Tommen, Myrcella, or Joffery. 

Renly was arguing in favor of killing Dany and her unborn kid in AGOT just so Robert could keep his ugly seat. He sure would have killed Cersei's kids just to keep the throne. They would have been a threat to his power. 

I agree.  While Renly was likely an overall decent guy, there was a darker side to him that he hid behind is easy smiles and flippant quips.  He states that they should have had Danaerys and Viserys killed years ago, simply because they were Targaryens.

He implores Ned, before Robert's reign is even over, to take the Lannister children into custody, a move that will undoubtedly end in bloodshed.  I'm not even sure if he knew or cared about their true parentage.  When Ned refuses, he flees, leaving Ned to deal with the fallout.  Was he going to pressure Ned to back his claim had Ned agreed?

Finally, he has no qualms about usurping Stannis, even if it leads to his brother's death, because he thought he was kingly.

It was his duty to stay in Kings Landing and help Ned enforce Robert's will, as it was his duty to bend his knee to Stannis, bringing his older brother the might of the Reach and Stormlands, ending Lannister power for all time.

[GallowsKnight]

Joffrey I think gets executed. He was a shit and had been crowned. Renly also needs to appease the North.

Tommen and Myrcella are safer if the bastardry is revealed as they are no longer claimants to the thrones. He can keep both as hostages/wards, marry them off to minor people, send to the Wall/Silent sister etc as needed. 

If it isn't, well I imagine if Renly doesn't have them quietly killed, the Tyrells do.

[Lion of the West]

I can't see a guy like Renly ever allowing either Joffrey or Tommen to live. They hold a claim people can rally around and unlike Myrcella its harder to make them marry a loyal man and so ensure that the claim works for Renly. Besides, I think that Myrcella might be enough as far as hostages go aganist the Lannisters.

[The Drunkard]

Definitely kill them. He argued that Dany and her child should die because they posed a vague threat, and was totally fine with having Stannis killed, so child-murder and kinslaying aren't out-of-bounds if he feels he has a good reason.

If he believes the incest story then it would be an even easier decision.

 

[Nyrhex]

1. Yes, he would have killed the children. Though he may have gone about it in a Princes in the Tower way, making them disappear in secret rather than a public excution. Propaganda is important, and despite what the tv show would have us believe, people do give a shit about kinslaying. Renly killing Stannis in battle is one thing, but executing his nephews because he blatently usurped them is quite another.

2. Cersei is definatly dead. Renly literally says so. There are a number of reasons for this, starting with her being a threat with her partisans at court, and ending with the possibility that she would simply get pregnant soon and say that it was Robert's, thus producing another child for Renly to murder before a rebellion breaks out to place Robert's true heir on the throne.

3. Tyrion is no such threat. If he does not die in the battle for King's Landing, he would be captured and used as a hostage against the Lannisters. He has little use otherwise. Tywin and Kevan share the risk of war, but nothing personal. Jaime is a prisoner of Robb. At the end of the war all four can return to the King's Peace if the bent the knee. Jaime would be of course out of the Kingsguard, as Renly has a new one. He and Tyrion may or may not spend the rest of Tywin's days as prisoners.

4. Renly as king would be a disaster. The Tyrells are the Lannisters with goof PR. Renly is charming but also an idiot. He had the support of the Stormlands because he is thier lord, and he had the Tyrells because he married into them and was about to become thier puppet king. His time as Master of Law saw the rise of corrupt men such as Janos Slynt rise in the ranks of the City Watch. He has no grasp of the working powers (remmeber when he counts the Dornish and Stannis on his side? The Dornish sides with the hated Lannisters over him, and Stannis had already sent out a decleration proclaiming himself as king). Comparing him to Joffrey? Joffrey was just cruel. He still knew how to play the political game and he still knew how to pretend to be normal. After the Blackwater he acts like prince charming and works good PR at the throne room, when he breaks off with Sansa and promises to marry Marg. The only thing you can say about him is that he is most likely to be a dick and harm his wife. Politically there is little to point to him not being able to rule just as well as Renly. Stannis on the other hand has far more under his belt already. Just look at who is following him to war from the start - the former Targ loyalists, who have every reason to hate his guts for thier loss of power and prestige. And yet they follow him to the end of the world. And this is after his policy of closing the whorehouses on his island, yes? That bit that Renly makes fun of in AGOT. We have 15 years of Stannis' rule over the worst that Westeros had to offer, and he shows us that he can make his worse enemies into his biggest supporters. Compare this to Renly, who went to fight the Lannisters and ended up with the Dornish of all people siding against him. He offered Robb Stark nothing, just threatened him with violence if he does not submit right away. He had no plan for the Vale or the Iron Islands, he fully expected the Reach's might to make everyone bow in fear. Instead everyone ignored him or sided against him.

[Oakhearts head]

That Renly/Joffrey comparison was pretty bad.

[GallowsKnight]

2 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

Renly as king would be a disaster. The Tyrells are the Lannisters with goof PR. Renly is charming but also an idiot. He had the support of the Stormlands because he is thier lord, and he had the Tyrells because he married into them and was about to become thier puppet king. His time as Master of Law saw the rise of corrupt men such as Janos Slynt rise in the ranks of the City Watch. He has no grasp of the working powers (remmeber when he counts the Dornish and Stannis on his side? The Dornish sides with the hated Lannisters over him, and Stannis had already sent out a decleration proclaiming himself as king). Comparing him to Joffrey? Joffrey was just cruel. He still knew how to play the political game and he still knew how to pretend to be normal. After the Blackwater he acts like prince charming and works good PR at the throne room, when he breaks off with Sansa and promises to marry Marg. The only thing you can say about him is that he is most likely to be a dick and harm his wife. Politically there is little to point to him not being able to rule just as well as Renly. Stannis on the other hand has far more under his belt already. Just look at who is following him to war from the start - the former Targ loyalists, who have every reason to hate his guts for thier loss of power and prestige. And yet they follow him to the end of the world. And this is after his policy of closing the whorehouses on his island, yes? That bit that Renly makes fun of in AGOT. We have 15 years of Stannis' rule over the worst that Westeros had to offer, and he shows us that he can make his worse enemies into his biggest supporters. Compare this to Renly, who went to fight the Lannisters and ended up with the Dornish of all people siding against him. He offered Robb Stark nothing, just threatened him with violence if he does not submit right away. He had no plan for the Vale or the Iron Islands, he fully expected the Reach's might to make everyone bow in fear. Instead everyone ignored him or sided against him.

I wish I could upvote posts.

[Ruhail]

8 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

Joffrey I think gets executed. He was a shit and had been crowned. Renly also needs to appease the North.

Tommen and Myrcella are safer if the bastardry is revealed as they are no longer claimants to the thrones. He can keep both as hostages/wards, marry them off to minor people, send to the Wall/Silent sister etc as needed. 

If it isn't, well I imagine if Renly doesn't have them quietly killed, the Tyrells do.

Book Renly threatens to kill Robb

[Universal Sword Donor]

7 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

4. Renly as king would be a disaster. The Tyrells are the Lannisters with goof PR. Renly is charming but also an idiot. He had the support of the Stormlands because he is thier lord, and he had the Tyrells because he married into them and was about to become thier puppet king. His time as Master of Law saw the rise of corrupt men such as Janos Slynt rise in the ranks of the City Watch. He has no grasp of the working powers (remmeber when he counts the Dornish and Stannis on his side? The Dornish sides with the hated Lannisters over him, and Stannis had already sent out a decleration proclaiming himself as king). Comparing him to Joffrey? Joffrey was just cruel. He still knew how to play the political game and he still knew how to pretend to be normal. After the Blackwater he acts like prince charming and works good PR at the throne room, when he breaks off with Sansa and promises to marry Marg. The only thing you can say about him is that he is most likely to be a dick and harm his wife. Politically there is little to point to him not being able to rule just as well as Renly. Stannis on the other hand has far more under his belt already. Just look at who is following him to war from the start - the former Targ loyalists, who have every reason to hate his guts for thier loss of power and prestige. And yet they follow him to the end of the world. And this is after his policy of closing the whorehouses on his island, yes? That bit that Renly makes fun of in AGOT. We have 15 years of Stannis' rule over the worst that Westeros had to offer, and he shows us that he can make his worse enemies into his biggest supporters. Compare this to Renly, who went to fight the Lannisters and ended up with the Dornish of all people siding against him. He offered Robb Stark nothing, just threatened him with violence if he does not submit right away. He had no plan for the Vale or the Iron Islands, he fully expected the Reach's might to make everyone bow in fear. Instead everyone ignored him or sided against him.

I don't have the time to do this right now, but I will come back and dissect this and disagree on pretty much the entire thing

[marsyao]

12 hours ago, Winter Rose Crown said:

He watched those 3 grow up thinking he was their uncle. He wasn't a psychopath like joffrey, I think he would have spared them because they are young kids he'd known since birth. It isn't like Robert and rhaegar's kids, Renly actually knows these kids.

You are confuse a man's personality and politics, two vastly different things, Renly would not allow Joffrey, Myrcella & Tommen live, it is not he want to kill them all, it is he has to kill them all, otherwise any Lords who disatified with his rule would rally with them and put Renly and his people in danger

[Knight of Onions]

Renly is not a psychopath like Joffrey. Also, Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are a threat to Stannis' claim, who is Robert's legitimate heir. Renly isn't the legitimate heir anyway as long as Stannis lives, and is trying to take the throne by conquest and popular support, so the line of succession is less of a concern to him than to his brother.

Still, he will want to elminate those three as rivals to his claim to the Iron Throne, so I think he'll force the Lannisters to acknowledge that they're Jaime's children and not Robert's. There's also a chance that he'd have Joffrey killed, not for his parentage, but for his tyrannical rule in his time as king.

[Minsc]

15 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

It was his duty to stay in Kings Landing and help Ned enforce Robert's will, as it was his duty to bend his knee to Stannis, bringing his older brother the might of the Reach and Stormlands, ending Lannister power for all time.

Renly has no duty to slit his throat alongside Ned because Ned doesn't want to use strategy.  Stannis has no evidence to his claims and Renly has never sworn anything to him thus he doesn't have a duty there either.  Also Renly isn't in charge of the Reach thus he cannot bring them over in opposition to Mace's wishes.

10 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

4. Renly as king would be a disaster. The Tyrells are the Lannisters with goof PR. Renly is charming but also an idiot. He had the support of the Stormlands because he is thier lord, and he had the Tyrells because he married into them and was about to become thier puppet king. His time as Master of Law saw the rise of corrupt men such as Janos Slynt rise in the ranks of the City Watch. 

Slynt took charge of the City Watch following Robert's Rebellion and I doubt Robert appointed seven year old Renly to be Master of Law at that time.  Moreover, Robert was the one that didn't want to do anything about Slynt and when the king has made a decision the Master of Law cannot go against his will.  Nor is there anything pointing to him becoming a Tyrell puppet with him being the one clearly in charge in all the encounters that we see.

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Stannis on the other hand has far more under his belt already. Just look at who is following him to war from the start - the former Targ loyalists,

Aka his bannermen meaning the same people that you dismissed for Renly.  Moreover, Stannis also has had some weird cult spring up around him because of a magic performing witch.  Nor have they all followed him to the end of the world instead many have abandoned him that is why his army now is smaller than it was at the start of Clash. 

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Compare this to Renly, who went to fight the Lannisters and ended up with the Dornish of all people siding against him.

The Dornish aren't supporting Stannis either.

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He offered Robb Stark nothing, just threatened him with violence if he does not submit right away.

You are confusing Renly with Stannis.  Renly offered Robb the means to save face.