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What proof that Tommen jumped?


Fredwin

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Just now, sj4iy said:

It's not a 'failure on behalf of the writing' when they don't feel the need to waste time addressing something obvious that we, the audience, saw happen with no ambiguity whatsoever.  It's just people nitpicking the nitpicks.

How is that a nitpick? Isn't that the entire point of the show - that they are trying to tell a story? What good is a script hat can't adhere to the basics of writing?

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4 minutes ago, Fredwin said:

How is that a nitpick? Isn't that the entire point of the show - that they are trying to tell a story? What good is a script hat can't adhere to the basics of writing?

This isn't a 'basic of writing' issue. You are the one who has determined that there was a need for investigation into Tommen's death despite the fact that we, the audience, know how he died and the people in the show clearly know how he died.  Cersei just killed everyone who could have even been remotely implicated in Tommen's death had there been a reason to believe it was anything but suicide...so who would she blame anyway?  It's a pointless question and it has nothing to do with 'bad writing'.

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Just now, sj4iy said:

This isn't a 'basic of writing' issue. You are the one who has determined that there was a need for investigation into Tommen's death despite the fact that we, the audience, know how he died and the people in the show clearly know how he died.  Cersei just killed everyone who could have even been remotely implicated in Tommen's death had there been a reason to believe it was anything but suicide...so who would she blame anyway?  It's a pointless question and it has nothing to do with 'bad writing'.

How is it pointless? How many Kings historic or fictional wind up throwing themselves out of the windows of their own palace? It's ridiculous for Cersei to just assume that as the truth without even saying a word, you don't agree? 

There is a point to the discussion, it pertains to a number of things that have already been mentioned like Cersei's state of mind, etc. 

What if Jaime winds up asking the question next season "What really happened to Tommen, did he actually jump?" Are you going to say to your television "Damn Jaime, That's a pointless thing to ask, why are you asking her that? We already saw it happen firsthand and we know the answer, you should know as well."

And back to the writing, how many dramatic series that you know of cheat in the way that the GoT writers do? You know, when the characters are omnipotent because the audience sees an event happen that they don't? Those Law & Order episodes would certainly be a lot shorter if they could end 5 minutes in because the audience already saw what happened, why continue to dwell on it?

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Just now, Fredwin said:

How is it pointless? How many Kings historic or fictional wind up throwing themselves out of the windows of their own palace? It's ridiculous for Cersei to just assume that as the truth without even saying a word, you don't agree? 

There is a point to the discussion, it pertains to a number of things that have already been mentioned like Cersei's state of mind, etc. 

What if Jaime winds up asking the question next season "What really happened to Tommen, did he actually jump?" Are you going to say to your television "Damn Jaime, That's a pointless thing to ask, why are you asking her that? We already saw it happen firsthand and we know the answer, you should know as well."

And back to the writing, how many dramatic series that you know of cheat in the way that the GoT writers do? You know, when the characters are omnipotent because the audience sees an event happen that they don't? Those Law & Order episodes would certainly be a lot shorter if they could end 5 minutes in because the audience already saw what happened, why continue to dwell on it?

Double post, sorry.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 01/07/2016 at 4:51 PM, Sophie of House Stark said:

It's pretty interesting that the only witness who could confirm that Tommen did in fact jump to his death is an undead zombie who can't formulate a sentence. Cersei didn't need witnesses or proof, she was entirely unsurprised. She probably half-expected it.

Qyburn was busy killing off Maester Pycelle.

The Mountain was busy raping <or i don't know what> Septa ...

And the one who said "I'm sorry your grace..." left straight away...

Who else has been seen in the red keep except those mentionned above? 

Very strange isn't it? No one was guarding the king? oooh yes! The lannister's army went with Jamie to riverrun... So no one was guarding the king? The mountain has the king's guard cloak and yet, was serving Cercei and the Lannisters were guarding the king... OK... 

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35 minutes ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

Qyburn was busy killing off Maester Pycelle.

The Mountain was busy raping <or i don't know what> Septa ...

And the one who said "I'm sorry your grace..." left straight away...

Who else has been seen in the red keep except those mentionned above? 

Very strange isn't it? No one was guarding the king? oooh yes! The lannister's army went with Jamie to riverrun... So no one was guarding the king? The mountain has the king's guard cloak and yet, was serving Cercei and the Lannisters were guarding the king... OK... 

There were probably several guards right down the hallway, as well as a few servants. Since they were guarding the only way in or out when Tommen was found or actually witnessed falling, there is no reason to believe that anyone assassinated him. No one was in the room with him and since there were likely more than one person guarding the hallway, they could be witnesses to each other. 

I am not sure if a story about Tommen dying in the fire would be needed. The king killing himself over the sorrow of the disaster would be fine with the people and serve the purpose of "proving" that he was not responsible. 

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Jaime questioning Tommen's death is a valid point. That's exactly what I think he's thinking as well. "Did she fucking murder him?". But from the story that has been told and shown to the viewer's, It is pretty clear that he off'd himself. So, back to your point. Yes, Westerosis don't know for fact that it was a suicide. We as the audience do. Are you saying that there is a conspiracy and a twist to come and we ourselves can't tell for sure if it's a suicide or were you trying to make the latter point? If it's the latter, I agree with you. 

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15 hours ago, missingm said:

There were probably several guards right down the hallway, as well as a few servants. Since they were guarding the only way in or out when Tommen was found or actually witnessed falling, there is no reason to believe that anyone assassinated him. No one was in the room with him and since there were likely more than one person guarding the hallway, they could be witnesses to each other. 

I am not sure if a story about Tommen dying in the fire would be needed. The king killing himself over the sorrow of the disaster would be fine with the people and serve the purpose of "proving" that he was not responsible. 

I know... I'm don't care about what they think in KL... But I just pointed out that the mountain has a KG cloak but is much more loyal to Cercei than to the King... So it's strange... It was like he was already doing his true job because Cercei became queen anyway... QG...

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There are a lot of reasons to believe he jumped. Her prophecy told her she would see him dead. He was confined to his room by her.

The thing that strikes me is that Cersei was told this prophecy, and she believes it because of the deaths of two of her children. What if she had killed herself before Tommen died. Say right after Myrcella died and she really started to believe the prophecy. Wouldn't that have proven the prophecy wrong and maybe Tommen lives a long life? You would think as a mother she would have thought about it at least.

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On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 8:06 PM, Fredwin said:

Anyhow, more than likely it's a failure on behalf of the writing. The writers love to show things to the audience and then think that because the audience is shown something and knows the truth of it, that the characters must as well. That's not how it works. They did the same thing with Tyrion and Dany in the very same episode. Dany has spent a handful of minutes onscreen with Tyrion and for half of those she was pissed at him, now they share heartfelt moments all of a sudden? Now Tyrion's advice is worth more then Daario's?

I think you see things entirely different than I do. Tyrion and Dany have had minimal screen time together yes but I take almost every scene they have together as her gaining respect of Tyrion. Especially the scene before the dragons let loose. Her plan was to kill them all and he was able to get her to see a better way, one that didn't kill innocent people. As to why is Tyrions advice better than Daarios? Have you not listened to Daarios advice? His is basically kill them all and do whatever we want. Which again means innocent people die.

Dany is supposed to be a good ruler, someone different from what they have had so far. Tyrion has been giving her advice that helps her be that. Daario gives her advice that mirrors those she is trying to get rid of.

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18 minutes ago, dbunting said:

I think you see things entirely different than I do. Tyrion and Dany have had minimal screen time together yes but I take almost every scene they have together as her gaining respect of Tyrion. Especially the scene before the dragons let loose. Her plan was to kill them all and he was able to get her to see a better way, one that didn't kill innocent people. As to why is Tyrions advice better than Daarios? Have you not listened to Daarios advice? His is basically kill them all and do whatever we want. Which again means innocent people die.

Dany is supposed to be a good ruler, someone different from what they have had so far. Tyrion has been giving her advice that helps her be that. Daario gives her advice that mirrors those she is trying to get rid of.

Hmm, you and I know this because we know both Tyrion's and Dany's characters and we can intuit what is not specifically said. Yet Tyrion has done nothing for Dany since arriving in Meereen. He has done nothing of note except free her dragons(Which we don't even know if she knows about yet.). Other than that nothing good has happened while Tyrion has been around. The sons of the harpy grew stronger, openly revolted, killed her "husband" and that's only until Tyrion becomes governor. After he becomes governor, her enemies become even stronger and more bold, they burn her fleet, they march on her cities, and what is Tyrion shown doing? Nothing except drinking making jokes, and basically putting a religious cult on the streets in full force. 

There is no reason show Dany should have any confidence in Tyrion. Yeah, he gives sound advice but how would she even know it? Daario's is equally sound and he basically gets banished from her inner circle for just being loyal. If the point wasn't to make Dany look really bad, than the writing was less than par.

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43 minutes ago, Fredwin said:

Hmm, you and I know this because we know both Tyrion's and Dany's characters and we can intuit what is not specifically said. Yet Tyrion has done nothing for Dany since arriving in Meereen. He has done nothing of note except free her dragons(Which we don't even know if she knows about yet.). Other than that nothing good has happened while Tyrion has been around. The sons of the harpy grew stronger, openly revolted, killed her "husband" and that's only until Tyrion becomes governor. After he becomes governor, her enemies become even stronger and more bold, they burn her fleet, they march on her cities, and what is Tyrion shown doing? Nothing except drinking making jokes, and basically putting a religious cult on the streets in full force. 

There is no reason show Dany should have any confidence in Tyrion. Yeah, he gives sound advice but how would she even know it? Daario's is equally sound and he basically gets banished from her inner circle for just being loyal. If the point wasn't to make Dany look really bad, than the writing was less than par.

The problem is that you are looking at this as if once the scene ends they freeze in time. You have to assume that they are interacting when not shown on camera.

The Harpy were growing stronger every day before Tyrion arrived, has nothing to do with him. He set out a good plan for peace, the other side changed their minds and attacked, that's not on him. And in reality, these revolts have to happen to show the right way to deal with them and to learn from them. If all went well and she never faced adversity then how would she ever learn?

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Surely I cannot be the only one that wondered if Tommen's balcony was barely one story off the ground and he just went for ice cream LOL 

A question - Did Tommen know who his real father was?  I know Myrcella knew but I cannot remember if Tommen knew. 

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2 hours ago, dbunting said:

The problem is that you are looking at this as if once the scene ends they freeze in time. You have to assume that they are interacting when not shown on camera.

The Harpy were growing stronger every day before Tyrion arrived, has nothing to do with him. He set out a good plan for peace, the other side changed their minds and attacked, that's not on him. And in reality, these revolts have to happen to show the right way to deal with them and to learn from them. If all went well and she never faced adversity then how would she ever learn?

I have to assume what now? I'm supposed to believe that Tyrion is trustworthy and capable enough to warrant the treatment he's getting, how? You're asking the audience to draw a conclusion based on nothing shown except the things that Tyrion has done to prove himself worthy in the past.

 This is actually very simple and I can prove to you how. Imagine show Tyrion after being boxed up by Varys end up in an entirely different plot line. Now imagine Jorah finding another character to take Tyrion's place. Instead of finding Tyrion he finds another prized sworn enemy of Dany, let's say Jon Bon Baratheon. We'll call him JBB for short.

Now if it was JBB instead of Tyrion who was in all the exact same scenes as Tyrion and was just as charming and well-informed would you believe we're supposed to feel the same way?

To trust this guy who just shows up and continues to do nothing but make mistakes? A man who while left in charge does nothing but sit idly and drink. If Dany did not fortuitously show up exactly when she did, the entire city would have fallen in one night. This person did not even send scouts or spies out to the other cities, did not send ships to patrol. He just felt he was so great a negotiator that the Masters would heed his nonsense. Then took no steps to do anything in case they didn't. The man left in charge did nothing. If this ridiculous person was a JBB and not a Tyrion, the audience would be rightfully pissed that Dany trusts him over Dario.

The only reason they aren't is because the audience knows who Tyrion is. Do you not understand that? Dany has no credible reason to make this decision and comes off bad, if you can't understand why that makes for poor writing or where I'm coming from we'll just have to disagree.

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12 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Surely I cannot be the only one that wondered if Tommen's balcony was barely one story off the ground and he just went for ice cream LOL 

A question - Did Tommen know who his real father was?  I know Myrcella knew but I cannot remember if Tommen knew. 

On the show I don't remember it ever being specifically stated that Tommen actually knows.

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On 7/12/2016 at 11:07 AM, Littlefingerbanger said:

Jaime questioning Tommen's death is a valid point. That's exactly what I think he's thinking as well. "Did she fucking murder him?". But from the story that has been told and shown to the viewer's, It is pretty clear that he off'd himself. So, back to your point. Yes, Westerosis don't know for fact that it was a suicide. We as the audience do. Are you saying that there is a conspiracy and a twist to come and we ourselves can't tell for sure if it's a suicide or were you trying to make the latter point? If it's the latter, I agree with you. 

Hey.

I was trying to make a couple of points. First, what is Cersei's actual state of mind? Was she already so far gone that she knew this act would kill Tommen somehow? Did she already consider Tommen dead to her after he basically betrayed her? There's a lot left to wonder about, especially since as I was trying to point out, she does not question how Tommen died even though there is no witness to the act.

Second, What are the repercussions going to be? Is Jaime going to believe he jumped? Is anyone going to actually believe he jumped? After all, he is the king and he made no effort to visit his wife for her trial. What does that look like to the people of King's Landing? It could look like a few different things, it could appear like he was imprisoned in the keep which makes Cersei look very suspect. It could look like Tommen was complicit in the act and then maybe murdered for it. It could look like Cersei orchestrated the entire thing and also killed Tommen.

 

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We saw it happen.

As in YOU. YOU, television audience member, saw it with your own eyes, in real time (at Tommen's place), happen. 

No one other than YOU, person who started this thread, is asking for proof. Not even any characters in the story. This isn't CSI Kings Landing.

Just because they didn't write in a detail that only you think is missing, doesn't make it bad writing.

So, let's see.... Is Jamie going to believe he jumped. Yes. Without question. That look of horror on Jamie's face when he saw Tommen's new sigil with the crown in the Seven Pointed Star on all the other Kings Guard's armor, told me as much. I imagine the rest of KL has seen even more of Tommen & Margery's devotion recently to know Tommen had his life torn from him when the Sept exploded. 

Everyone except Cersei saw it coming a mile away. I called it the second we saw his back, staring out the window... then take off the crown. If I'd missed the episode, and you told me, "Tommen suicided!" My response would be, "of course he did." A little boy, in love with a willing lover, doing anything to get her back, gets Culted™. 

Now i haz a sad.  

:crying:

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16 hours ago, Fredwin said:

I have to assume what now? I'm supposed to believe that Tyrion is trustworthy and capable enough to warrant the treatment he's getting, how? You're asking the audience to draw a conclusion based on nothing shown except the things that Tyrion has done to prove himself worthy in the past.

 This is actually very simple and I can prove to you how. Imagine show Tyrion after being boxed up by Varys end up in an entirely different plot line. Now imagine Jorah finding another character to take Tyrion's place. Instead of finding Tyrion he finds another prized sworn enemy of Dany, let's say Jon Bon Baratheon. We'll call him JBB for short.

Now if it was JBB instead of Tyrion who was in all the exact same scenes as Tyrion and was just as charming and well-informed would you believe we're supposed to feel the same way?

To trust this guy who just shows up and continues to do nothing but make mistakes? A man who while left in charge does nothing but sit idly and drink. If Dany did not fortuitously show up exactly when she did, the entire city would have fallen in one night. This person did not even send scouts or spies out to the other cities, did not send ships to patrol. He just felt he was so great a negotiator that the Masters would heed his nonsense. Then took no steps to do anything in case they didn't. The man left in charge did nothing. If this ridiculous person was a JBB and not a Tyrion, the audience would be rightfully pissed that Dany trusts him over Dario.

The only reason they aren't is because the audience knows who Tyrion is. Do you not understand that? Dany has no credible reason to make this decision and comes off bad, if you can't understand why that makes for poor writing or where I'm coming from we'll just have to disagree.

Again, you talk as if there is no time between scenes, as if time freezes and nothing went on while the audience wasn't looking. He gives her sound advice on several occasions that we see. And Mereen was peaceful with no Harpy murders for a time, until the slavers attacked full force, so his plan would have worked. His work along with Varys exposed who was behind the Harpy. How much more is he supposed to do when the Queen abandons the city?

When Jon has Davos as a trusted advisor, do you challenge that also? I mean, Davos was with Stannis, who killed his own brother using magic. Stannis sacrificed people to Rhllor and Davos was with him.  Why should Jon trust him? Hell, he is a former smuggler let's not forget.

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4 hours ago, dbunting said:

Again, you talk as if there is no time between scenes, as if time freezes and nothing went on while the audience wasn't looking. He gives her sound advice on several occasions that we see. And Mereen was peaceful with no Harpy murders for a time, until the slavers attacked full force, so his plan would have worked. His work along with Varys exposed who was behind the Harpy. How much more is he supposed to do when the Queen abandons the city?

When Jon has Davos as a trusted advisor, do you challenge that also? I mean, Davos was with Stannis, who killed his own brother using magic. Stannis sacrificed people to Rhllor and Davos was with him.  Why should Jon trust him? Hell, he is a former smuggler let's not forget.

You're saying it like there are logical dots to connect about what Tyrion's done for Meereen. The show depicts the scenes it wants to depict, if these scenes shown aren't enough to make sense on their own, do you really think people are going to imagine all the cool stuff happening off-screen in their heads? Really? So you're saying if a story isn't making sense based off what is written, I should imagine all the interconnecting points in my head? 

There is nothing, I mean nothing shown to prove that Tyrion should be this far in Dany's good graces right now. So he's given her good advice. So has Missandei, so has Gray Worm, so has Jorah, so has Daario, so did Selmy. What's the point? Advice is free. So Tyrion is giving her more moral support than Daario. So what? That means Tyrion should all of a sudden share a scene with Dany where they are both brought to tears as he is promoted to Hand of The Queen? Why would Daario be banished for giving his opinion of how to conduct what is a war? I'm sorry, it's actually a ridiculous concept altogether.

Jon has shared actual time on screen with Davos, hasn't he? Where they exchanged similar ideas and built a rapport? Davos was basically Stannis' liason to Jon and everyone else. Jon has seen on screen what Davos' character is, why Stannis trusted him, etc. There's not much for Jon to second guess, I do understand why Sansa would though. It makes sense that Sansa wouldn't trust Davos, she doesn't know him.

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19 minutes ago, Fredwin said:

You're saying it like there are logical dots to connect about what Tyrion's done for Meereen. The show depicts the scenes it wants to depict, if these scenes shown aren't enough to make sense on their own, do you really think people are going to imagine all the cool stuff happening off-screen in their heads? Really? So you're saying if a story isn't making sense based off what is written, I should imagine all the interconnecting points in my head? 

There is nothing, I mean nothing shown to prove that Tyrion should be this far in Dany's good graces right now. So he's given her good advice. So has Missandei, so has Gray Worm, so has Jorah, so has Daario, so did Selmy. What's the point? Advice is free. So Tyrion is giving her more moral support than Daario. So what? That means Tyrion should all of a sudden share a scene with Dany where they are both brought to tears as he is promoted to Hand of The Queen? Why would Daario be banished for giving his opinion of how to conduct what is a war? I'm sorry, it's actually a ridiculous concept altogether.

Jon has shared actual time on screen with Davos, hasn't he? Where they exchanged similar ideas and built a rapport? Davos was basically Stannis' liason to Jon and everyone else. Jon has seen on screen what Davos' character is, why Stannis trusted him, etc. There's not much for Jon to second guess, I do understand why Sansa would though. It makes sense that Sansa wouldn't trust Davos, she doesn't know him.

To me the main reason Dany trusts Tyrion is because of what we see on screen. He doesn't tell her what she wants to hear, he doesn't agree with everything she says. He advises her and helps show her why through reason. To me this is a non issue.

This is entertainment. You as a watcher or reader have to infer a certain amount of things. If Dany is trusting him then we should assume that she has reason to. If every second of every character was shown it would be the worst show ever.

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