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What proof that Tommen jumped?


Fredwin

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43 minutes ago, dbunting said:

To me the main reason Dany trusts Tyrion is because of what we see on screen. He doesn't tell her what she wants to hear, he doesn't agree with everything she says. He advises her and helps show her why through reason. To me this is a non issue.

This is entertainment. You as a watcher or reader have to infer a certain amount of things. If Dany is trusting him then we should assume that she has reason to. If every second of every character was shown it would be the worst show ever.

I understand that, but I will argue that not enough has transpired between the two to share a heartfelt tear inducing moment for either of them. Not enough for me to infer there is any type of closeness between them in the least. As a matter of fact, a couple of scenes before that where Dany flies into the Pyramid and looks absolutely livid at Tyrion, we had all assumed(based off what as shown) that Tyrion was going into the doghouse. Yet 180 degrees and two scenes later we get the afformentioned scene. The only plot points that happened between those two scenes were that Dany won the battle for them and then after some advice from her attendants(including Tyrion) has Gray Worm execute two of them. That's it. I'm not given anything that leads me to infer a closer relationship between the two. Especially a closer bond between the two than her previous bond with Daario.

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1 hour ago, Fredwin said:

I understand that, but I will argue that not enough has transpired between the two to share a heartfelt tear inducing moment for either of them. Not enough for me to infer there is any type of closeness between them in the least. As a matter of fact, a couple of scenes before that where Dany flies into the Pyramid and looks absolutely livid at Tyrion, we had all assumed(based off what as shown) that Tyrion was going into the doghouse. Yet 180 degrees and two scenes later we get the afformentioned scene. The only plot points that happened between those two scenes were that Dany won the battle for them and then after some advice from her attendants(including Tyrion) has Gray Worm execute two of them. That's it. I'm not given anything that leads me to infer a closer relationship between the two. Especially a closer bond between the two than her previous bond with Daario.

Bold 1 - That is the same Dany pose / entrance we have seen many times before so you can't take that to mean anything. She had no idea what happened and what led up to that point so she couldn't be mad at anyone yet.

Bold 2 - Dany won the battle, that TYRION set up. Her plan was to destroy the cities and kill everyone until he counseled her no to.

Bold 3 - Dany wasn't even there, she was still on the dragons over the bay. Grey Worm and Tyion decided who to kill, you can see Tyrion nod to Grey Worm when the masters push the other guy forward.

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Just to make it clear - Daenarys almost immediately trusts Tyrion´s governing capabilities because he was Hand of the King, Master of Coins and Savior of King´s Landing during a siege. He has more experience as a statesman than anyone Daenerys ever met up to that point except for the slavers and Qarth´s council; the only who clearly had interests aligned with her own since he had recently killed the de facto king of Westeros (and was accused of killing the actual one).

It´s not any "worse writing" that she trusts him than that she trusts Jorah Mormont.

 

Regarding Tommen´s death - he was guarded by the KG, evenif we don´t constantly see a person inside his room, there´s no reason to believe there are not a couple of men outside the doors. If the KG says no one went in, no one went in unless the king was killed by some sort of assassin. There might be whispers and rumours, but given how well-known is Cersei´s love for her children (like we can see in Braavos), people would expect her to be the one leading any search for the "truth". Once they realise she´s just resigned with it, everyone would probably just drop it as a tragic event. Something terrible had just happened.

I seriously doubt anyone would suspect her. Not enough, at least.

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9 hours ago, dbunting said:

Bold 1 - That is the same Dany pose / entrance we have seen many times before so you can't take that to mean anything. She had no idea what happened and what led up to that point so she couldn't be mad at anyone yet.

Bold 2 - Dany won the battle, that TYRION set up. Her plan was to destroy the cities and kill everyone until he counseled her no to.

Bold 3 - Dany wasn't even there, she was still on the dragons over the bay. Grey Worm and Tyion decided who to kill, you can see Tyrion nod to Grey Worm when the masters push the other guy forward.

 

Tyrion did not set that battle up, he certainly didn't plan for it and he certainly didn't do anything during it. Greyworm totally shut him down and took control of the situation after the battle started and then Dany ended it. Yes, we both agree that Tyrion is giving her better moral advice, but so what? Just because Tyrion(in one instance) is taking the moral highroad, that means that during a heated battle his advice is the one to take and not Daario's? Certainly even if Dany were to disagree with Daario she can still see the merit of what he says. Also, what about the other decisions Tyrion made, you know... the one that allowed for an extended period of slavery while the Master's adjusted? You think Dany agreed with that decision? Or the other, do you think Dany agreed with putting a death cult on the street to spread her gospel?

 

 

7 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Just to make it clear - Daenarys almost immediately trusts Tyrion´s governing capabilities because he was Hand of the King, Master of Coins and Savior of King´s Landing during a siege. He has more experience as a statesman than anyone Daenerys ever met up to that point except for the slavers and Qarth´s council; the only who clearly had interests aligned with her own since he had recently killed the de facto king of Westeros (and was accused of killing the actual one).

It´s not any "worse writing" that she trusts him than that she trusts Jorah Mormont.

 

Regarding Tommen´s death - he was guarded by the KG, evenif we don´t constantly see a person inside his room, there´s no reason to believe there are not a couple of men outside the doors. If the KG says no one went in, no one went in unless the king was killed by some sort of assassin. There might be whispers and rumours, but given how well-known is Cersei´s love for her children (like we can see in Braavos), people would expect her to be the one leading any search for the "truth". Once they realise she´s just resigned with it, everyone would probably just drop it as a tragic event. Something terrible had just happened.

I seriously doubt anyone would suspect her. Not enough, at least.

Dany knows next to nothing about Tyrion's past. Even Tywin dismissed Tyrion's accomplishments as hand of the king, why would Dany believe in him any more than his own father did?

I don't know why this is so difficult to explain, but I'll keep trying. Most characters in a story should only know things first or second hand. Either they witness something, or someone else does and describes it to them. It has not been established to Dany, first or second hand, why she should trust Tyrion to this magnitude. Promoting him to her hand over other capable and more loyal servants. Yes, he's done great things, but not for Dany, not yet. Hes's actually been quite questionable for Dany, that's what the show has related to us so far. To say otherwise is asking me to rewrite the show in my head "Oh, Tyrion... yeah he's going to be great for her, she's going to need him by her side in Westeros to advise her in how to deal with each of the seven kingdoms." That's what the show wants me to believe, except Dany has no reason to feel that way. I'm sorry, it's not written on the script. If you want people to infer things, you have to leave little drops of information here and there so they can make a logical conclusion.

Now, take Bran for instance, say Bran meets up with Tyrion again on the show. If Bran starts acting buddy-buddy with him with no explanation, I could buy it. Do you know why? Because Bran has powers that make him near omnipotent, and he could witness Tyrion's true character and maybe forgive him, etc. That's something that I could infer because I know what Bran is capable of, it doesn't need to be shown on screen. Dany on the other hand, this effects her character so much, that she trusts Tyrion nearly to the point of tears(over her loyal servants) for close to no reason. That's why I blame the writing. It's like if you wrote a love story between two well-written characters and didn't write in the love part. Just cut to the end and say, "What? These two characters obviously go together well, you already know them both. Yeah, they're together now." You can't write like that. This was something easily remedied, cut Dany's stupid second pep talk, and add a scene where she bonds with Tyrion, maybe about how he risked his life to free the other two dragons.

 

As far as Tommen is concerned, you're making my points for me. A lot of things could have happened, an assassin, a plot, who is to say what exactly? The only people who know what actually happened 100% are the audience. Think about that for a minute. A king jumping to his death is an oddity and potentially really bad for the realm, of course there will be serious talk and discussion about it.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Fredwin said:

Dany knows next to nothing about Tyrion's past. Even Tywin dismissed Tyrion's accomplishments as hand of the king, why would Dany believe in him any more than his own father did?

17 minutes ago, Fredwin said:

I don't know why this is so difficult to explain, but I'll keep trying. Most characters in a story should only know things first or second hand. Either they witness something, or someone else does and describes it to them. It has not been established to Dany, first or second hand, why she should trust Tyrion to this magnitude.

?

Are you saying everytime a character the audience has been following for a while meets another character that the audience has been following for a while the show should show us them trading every relevant story about themselves? Otherwise they can´t possibly know each other´s great deeds?

Tyrion´s a known character throughout the world, people play theater pieces about him in Braavos, his head is wanted by the Queen Regent with a lordship as reward.

Of course characters can only know things first- or second-hand, no one´s saying she´s omniscient. But we do not need to be shown every character receiving every piece of well-known information, that would be terribly tedious.

You´re trying to compare Daenerys to Tywin - this one actively wanted to play down Tyrion´s part because he despised him and couldn´t openly admit Tyrion´s merit. Still, words about the Blackwater reach everywhere in the world, and Tyrion can give first-hand details of how it happened. Dany has no reason to deeply mistrust him or hate him like Tywin. She might not even care about him being master of coin. But he was hand of the king during wartime; and he´s Tyrion, he´s good with his own speech, we just don´t have to suffer him being witty and giving a bunch of little relevant advices just for the sake of estabilishing that he´s earned her trust. His skills as a governor had been emphatically estabilished previously already.

Your reasons for Bran are quite far fetched. How about the fact Tyrion went out of his way to design Bran a saddle?

33 minutes ago, Fredwin said:

Hes's actually been quite questionable for Dany, that's what the show has related to us so far.

I don´t disagree with that. I don´t think Tyrion made the right move by negotiating with the slavers, but it did bring some semblance of peace and prosperity back to a ravaged Mereen, which is more than Dany could really say about her own rule; it was his first "screw-up", which caused something that Dany could understand as having been inevitable.

I´d have no problem if this was eventually used to drive them apart, but I´m totally ok with her simply overlooking it.

39 minutes ago, Fredwin said:

As far as Tommen is concerned, you're making my points for me. A lot of things could have happened, an assassin, a plot, who is to say what exactly? The only people who know what actually happened 100% are the audience. Think about that for a minute. A king jumping to his death is an oddity and potentially really bad for the realm, of course there will be serious talk and discussion about it.

Like I said, people might get ideas of assassination, but I don´t think it would be relevant, and no one would implicate Cersei, she´s known across the sea as a fiercely loving mother. Most people would be dissuaded by the sheer atrocity of Baelor´s Sept. If the king had died in the explosion, I think it would be far more likely for someone to seriously suspect anything.

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On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 11:14 PM, Fredwin said:

 

Tyrion did not set that battle up, he certainly didn't plan for it and he certainly didn't do anything during it. Greyworm totally shut him down and took control of the situation after the battle started and then Dany ended it.

 

OK, so now I see what this is. It's just a Tyrion sucks position. I wish I had seen it earlier and saved myself the time spent to type responses of what actually happened vs your reality. He did set the battle up and of course Grey Worm did the killing, he is a trained killer and Tyrion is not.

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10 hours ago, dbunting said:

OK, so now I see what this is. It's just a Tyrion sucks position. I wish I had seen it earlier and saved myself the time spent to type responses of what actually happened vs your reality. He did set the battle up and of course Grey Worm did the killing, he is a trained killer and Tyrion is not.

Nah, I like Peter Dinklage and how Tyrion is portrayed. I don't mind the fact that he's been more than wrong recently, as they have up until now portrayed him as pretty infallible. The issue isn't with Tyrion at all, at no point did I state that or make a case for that, don't put words in my text. The issue is pretty much exactly what I keep trying to relate to you, there is nothing written in the script and thus shown on screen that should make Tyrion as close to Dany as he is now. It makes Dany's character look bad, not him. That being said, I don't dislike Emilia or her character either, I just feel the writing has portrayed her as particularly stupid and short-sighted here.

On a separate note, why do you keep saying Tyrion set up the battle? What did he set up? 

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5 hours ago, Fredwin said:

Nah, I like Peter Dinklage and how Tyrion is portrayed. I don't mind the fact that he's been more than wrong recently, as they have up until now portrayed him as pretty infallible. The issue isn't with Tyrion at all, at no point did I state that or make a case for that, don't put words in my text. The issue is pretty much exactly what I keep trying to relate to you, there is nothing written in the script and thus shown on screen that should make Tyrion as close to Dany as he is now. It makes Dany's character look bad, not him. That being said, I don't dislike Emilia or her character either, I just feel the writing has portrayed her as particularly stupid and short-sighted here.

On a separate note, why do you keep saying Tyrion set up the battle? What did he set up? 

It seems as though you're watching a completely different show than I am.

 

 

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I'm the one watching a different show? Just look at what the plot points were this season.

They went out of their way to show Tyrion making mistakes. Grey Worm and Missandei both tell Tyrion he is wrong to trust the masters and they basically beseech him to not make a deal. Then when he makes a deal anyways they tell him to rethink it, to basically do something because the master's can't be trusted. So what's the payoff for that? Basically Tyrion was wrong, did nothing to fix it, made no back-up plan, and would have lost the city if not for Dany's timely and unannounced arrival. 

Tyrion. once again defying advice, has allowed the red god a huge foothold into Meereen, and we can only assume the payoff for that is going to be horrific.

The majority of his scenes show him drinking and making jokes, not governing.

While governor, Dany's entire fleet is sabotaged and allowed to burn down. 

On a positive note, He is shown freeing the dragons(The only truly good, noteworthy thing he was shown doing.)

So let's review, shall we: Tyrion is shown making poor decisions and not listening to counsel or advice. He's not shown governing effectively like he did in King's landing. He is explicitly in charge as the entire fleet burned down(Oh well I guess?). He does nothing to prepare the city's defenses. He does nothing to spy on the master's or figure out their motives. He does nothing to prepare the army. 

So literally, the script has shown Tyrion doing nothing much of note except being shown that he is basically way out of his league in Essos. That's literally exactly what has been shown on TV this season, so don't tell me it's not. Go read a synopsis if you can't remember, or better yet rewatch it objectively.

Barring all of that, Tyrion and Dany somehow share an emotional scene where she explicitly trusts him now. It's like were missing about 5 scenes where these characters actually get to know eachother and Tyrion wasn't just shown looking so inept. The only thing I can buy is that Dany feels a bond with him because Tyrion was able to free the dragons, but yes, there needs to be a scene where she still acknowledges this for any of it to make sense. 

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3 hours ago, Fredwin said:

So literally, the script has shown Tyrion doing nothing much of note except being shown that he is basically way out of his league in Essos.

I do agree with you there. I don´t think Tyrion did nothing but drink and make jokes, I do believe he did nothing worthy of note(besides accidentaly setting up the battle for Mereen and freeing the Dragons) , which is just as telling.

I personally took this, which I also see as the intention of the show, in two ways - the obvious "Tyrion is not perfect" angle, and the seriousness of trying to rule a place you don´t know.

But this doesn´t play into Daenerys´ trust, because she had already trusted him beforehand. Prior to the events at the Fighting Pits, Tyrion was already the most important councilor she had. And the reason for this is what I mentioned previously, his sheer experience and charisma.

After Dany sees Tyrion´s screw up, I don´t doubt her first instinct is to lower her trust on him. However, he manages to show her that his ws an honest mistake, made because he tried to follow her rule through his own understanding of it. Dany must have seen in Tyrion herself failing in Westeros - and thus must have come to the conclusion that´s exactly why she had chosen him to advise her in the first place.

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19 hours ago, NutBurz said:

I do agree with you there. I don´t think Tyrion did nothing but drink and make jokes, I do believe he did nothing worthy of note(besides accidentaly setting up the battle for Mereen and freeing the Dragons) , which is just as telling.

I personally took this, which I also see as the intention of the show, in two ways - the obvious "Tyrion is not perfect" angle, and the seriousness of trying to rule a place you don´t know.

But this doesn´t play into Daenerys´ trust, because she had already trusted him beforehand. Prior to the events at the Fighting Pits, Tyrion was already the most important councilor she had. And the reason for this is what I mentioned previously, his sheer experience and charisma.

After Dany sees Tyrion´s screw up, I don´t doubt her first instinct is to lower her trust on him. However, he manages to show her that his ws an honest mistake, made because he tried to follow her rule through his own understanding of it. Dany must have seen in Tyrion herself failing in Westeros - and thus must have come to the conclusion that´s exactly why she had chosen him to advise her in the first place.

I get that, I understand that it was already established that she trusts Tyrion to a degree. She allowed him to get close to her and gave him a new lease on life. It's not like I'm saying she doesn't trust him 100%, I know she doesn't think he's an enemy, or out to get her. What I'm saying is, beyond this initial "prove yourself" scenario, Tyrion hasn't done enough in her service to warrant her extreme trust(even over her other advisors) which has placed him as her right(or left) hand.

I don't understand how Tyrion's previous "accomplishments" have any bearing on how anyone besides Varys views him though. As you can see with Braavos' King's Landing play, the truth gets stretched. Who is to say Tyrion is responsible for anything that happened in King's Landing for certain? When Missandei sees Tyrion acting foolish and potentially sealing their fate at the hand of the master's do you think she's saying to herself "Well, he did great things for King's Landing so I'm sure he knows what's best." Or do you think she's having second thoughts about his reputation? Maybe he wasn't responsible for any feats attributed to him, maybe he took credit for someone elses deeds and murdered them? And why wouldn't she think that way? That's how politics in King's Landing has worked, hasn't it?

Here's the point I'm making, the stuff Tyrion did in the past can not be put into this equation because Dany was not there, she did not witness Tyrion in top form. She's heard rumors at best. Even though that may have been enough to give him the benefit of the doubt, we are not shown him doing anything in her service to advance himself(except release the dragons, as noteworthy as that may be). Thus, the reason Dany is so close to him now is because the audience knows who Tyrion truly is. Since the audience knows how great and noble he's been so far, Dany does as well. The fact that Dany trusts him to this degree is basically cheating on the writer's part. She dismisses one of her most loyal servant and promotes Tyrion above two others who have shown greater service and in the case of Meereen, governing skills. This makes her look ridiculous unless you build the link in your mind to Tyrion's character as a whole. That's why I mentioned this Dany/Tyrion situation in the first place, because the writer's do this type of thing a lot.

I'm not saying we, the audience, need to be shown every little stupid single detail and minutia that's supposed to be happening off-screen. I actually like the fact that there is teleporting on the show, travelogues are boring and unnecessary. Something like having Jon and Sansa travel to every house in the north isn't necessary either, they've already stated what they are trying to do.

These two situations however are something different. The original reason for the post was because outside of we, the audience, no one knows what actually happened to Tommen, and there are many, many ways that is important which I've already discussed. Dany/Tyrion was just supposed to be an example of how the show establishes something, and then magically all the other character's know off-screen. 

 

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2 hours ago, Fredwin said:

I don't understand how Tyrion's previous "accomplishments" have any bearing on how anyone besides Varys views him though.

I understand what you´re saying (using this sentence just to synthetise).

The only "proofs" the show gives us that Tyrion is earning her trust with more than the rumours of his past are two scenes. The very first, when he advises her regarding Jorah, and then when they´re talking in private and she tells him she will "destroy the wheel".

None of these scenes are enough on their own, but they already show a reluctant Dany. If this was a no one with a Lannister last name, there would be very little reason why she would even pay -any- heed to what he was saying. If this was the Kingslayer, I doubt there would be anything that could be said to be able to save him from her wrath. When Tyrion says he killed his father, the show does not give us any indication that Daenerys is surprised - which can only mean she was familiar with the fact already.

Now..

3 hours ago, Fredwin said:

the stuff Tyrion did in the past can not be put into this equation because Dany was not there, she did not witness Tyrion in top form. She's heard rumors at best.

the rumours could be a lie - up to the moment she sat down and talked to him.

Sorry for anecdotal question, but have you ever chatted with the mayor of a big city, or a governor, or a president maybe, about governance? I´m specialized in governance practices, have been reading about it ever since graduation and my first scientific initiation, that´s almost a decade, and still, I´m simply not able to talk like someone who practiced it. I´ve never had a casual conversation with a president, but the few times I did have pleasant conversations with major political players, I felt like I was a 16 years old trying to talk about politics with the older guys.

This is all to say that the moment Tyrion opened his mouth to talk about King´s Landing, it would be clear to Daenerys that he had ruled it, that he knew it, that he understood how it worked, and the huge beast that that city was.

The fact we´re not shown this particular conversation is, indeed, that the audience already knows these things to a tiresome point. Varys had spent two episodes telling us "there´s no one right now who can hande King´s Landing like you, Tyrion, and that´s why I´m rebelling".

3 hours ago, Fredwin said:

She dismisses one of her most loyal servant and promotes Tyrion above two others who have shown greater service and in the case of Meereen, governing skills.

Just as a last point - she did not have these options. Neither Missandei nor Grey Worm were rulers, Missandei is barely comfortable enough to give her actual advice deeper than "Follow your heart". Tyrion condemned the man who had saved both his life and Daenerys´ to exile, not freedom or death. Being a ruler is making this kind of difficult choice, and neither Missandei nor Grey Worm were capable of doing such. They might know how to deal with this or that situation better than Tyrion, but they probably don´t know how many tons of wheat is required to feed a city, or how much to tax vendors, or how to solve delicate conflicts between citizens, and etc.

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Just now, tmug said:

Perhaps Jaime pushed him out. Cersei of all people knows that sometimes boys can fall out of windows.

Oh man, I didn't even think of how unfortunate a circumstance that must be. That's awesome.

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6 hours ago, NutBurz said:

I understand what you´re saying (using this sentence just to synthetise).

The only "proofs" the show gives us that Tyrion is earning her trust with more than the rumours of his past are two scenes. The very first, when he advises her regarding Jorah, and then when they´re talking in private and she tells him she will "destroy the wheel".

None of these scenes are enough on their own, but they already show a reluctant Dany. If this was a no one with a Lannister last name, there would be very little reason why she would even pay -any- heed to what he was saying. If this was the Kingslayer, I doubt there would be anything that could be said to be able to save him from her wrath. When Tyrion says he killed his father, the show does not give us any indication that Daenerys is surprised - which can only mean she was familiar with the fact already.

Now..

the rumours could be a lie - up to the moment she sat down and talked to him.

Sorry for anecdotal question, but have you ever chatted with the mayor of a big city, or a governor, or a president maybe, about governance? I´m specialized in governance practices, have been reading about it ever since graduation and my first scientific initiation, that´s almost a decade, and still, I´m simply not able to talk like someone who practiced it. I´ve never had a casual conversation with a president, but the few times I did have pleasant conversations with major political players, I felt like I was a 16 years old trying to talk about politics with the older guys.

This is all to say that the moment Tyrion opened his mouth to talk about King´s Landing, it would be clear to Daenerys that he had ruled it, that he knew it, that he understood how it worked, and the huge beast that that city was.

The fact we´re not shown this particular conversation is, indeed, that the audience already knows these things to a tiresome point. Varys had spent two episodes telling us "there´s no one right now who can hande King´s Landing like you, Tyrion, and that´s why I´m rebelling".

Just as a last point - she did not have these options. Neither Missandei nor Grey Worm were rulers, Missandei is barely comfortable enough to give her actual advice deeper than "Follow your heart". Tyrion condemned the man who had saved both his life and Daenerys´ to exile, not freedom or death. Being a ruler is making this kind of difficult choice, and neither Missandei nor Grey Worm were capable of doing such. They might know how to deal with this or that situation better than Tyrion, but they probably don´t know how many tons of wheat is required to feed a city, or how much to tax vendors, or how to solve delicate conflicts between citizens, and etc.

Alright, so I agree with most of what you're saying, but I still hold to some notions. Namely, that if the show really wanted to have that emotional scene between Tyrion and Dany that they should have inserted a few more scenes intended to build that bond up. 

The scene itself was pretty significant. In it, the balance of power tilts entirely towards Tyrion. It's shown quite clearly that he has her ear, and has somehow already convinced her to pull the reigns in on Daario. I have a feeling that it was written in because the writers felt like it was a shocking twist. It really wasn't, it just came across as lazy to me.

Before that scene happened, there was no reason for us to believe that it logically could have, given how things unfolded this season. Think of how they intentionally added false tension with Dany's return to the Pyramid. She looked pissed, Tyrion looked ashamed, and the music was foreboding. This was crafted in a cliffhanger type way to make us believe "Oh crap, Tyrion's in deep." There was a lot of talk about it written in articles and here on the forum. The only reason they were able to get away with this, is because the writer's(at least some of them) understood that there was a reason for Dany to be pissed, and that Tyrion might be culpable.

Then the next episode came, and nothing. The battle came and went, and Tyrion still wasn't even sat down with her for a review of what happened or anything. I didn't mind because I figured it would come at a later time. Kind of like how I asked people to think twice before hating on Davos for not confronting Melisandre initially, and he eventually did. Yet, we got a totally different scene. One where Tyrion is put totally in charge. I don't believe it was necessary either, Dany is the Queen, she certainly had the option just not to promote anyone at all. 

Unfortunately, I have not spoken to many people in the position to govern. There's only been a couple and the notable one was Governor Deval Patrick of Massachusetts. I only spoke with him for a few brief minutes but all I really felt from listening to him was that he was more like a well-crafted persona than an actual person.

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I´ll certainly conceed that the story feels more "gapped" now. Maybe that explains both cases at hand. In the first-third seasons, we´d be treated to more consequence-scenes for things like Tyrion´s screw up and Tommen´s jump. I can´t help but feeling that whatever consequences might be coming next season, however.

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26 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

I´ll certainly conceed that the story feels more "gapped" now. Maybe that explains both cases at hand. In the first-third seasons, we´d be treated to more consequence-scenes for things like Tyrion´s screw up and Tommen´s jump. I can´t help but feeling that whatever consequences might be coming next season, however.

Yeah, I think that's really the major thing I'm excited about with the coming season. I want to see Jaime's reaction to the whole ordeal. I hope it's not a massive letdown. 

On a totally separate side note. Since I've been bashing the writing for it, on the positive side I do like what the writer's did with how Tyrion handles Essos. He kind of just assumes it's a backwater joke town and that things are going to roll the way they do back home. I like the fact they manage to get across how Westeros is a feudal type society and that power works differently there, people expect a King or Lord to be in charge.  Yet in Slaver's Bay, the Masters are in charge and whatever type of government or caste type system they use, Tyrion is like a fish out of water has no idea how to interact with it or the locals.

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