Heresy 188

[Tyryan Lannister]

17 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Is it ever actually stated in the story that weirwood arrows could slay dragons? Isn't that entire interpretation rooted around a Bran vision of a man cutting three branches off of the Winterfell heart tree? It's not an unreasonable inference, but Torrhen would be banking a lot on those three branches, even more so because, according to the WB, Aegon's more mundane army was also larger by that point.

I've always preferred the reading that Torrhen is one of the examples of a legitimately good ruler within the series--he saved his people a lot of grief, and for the most part life in the North stayed roughly the same, except that King Torrhen is now Lord Torrhen. I think he holds up particularly well when contrasted against the leaders in the War of the Five Kings.

Well. the evidence we have is not that Torrhen was hoping to do anything with the arrows, but rather his bastard brother, Brandon Snow.  And, Brandon was the leader of the group that approached Aegon with terms (whether to actual negotiator at the end was Brandon or Torrhen I could not discover).  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brandon_Snow 

[Tucu]

The world book says: "The king's bastard brother Brandon Snow offered to cross the Trident alone under cover of darkness, to slay the dragons whilst they slept."

Seeing the image of Brandon Snow making 3 wierwood arrows I thought he was planning to kill the 3 Targs, not the 3 real dragons.

[Brad Stark]

Bran had a vision of a man making arrows from the weirwood in Winterfell.  When I read it, I assumed it was Bloodraven.  I thought he was known to use weirwood arrows, and he didn't kill dragons.

You ask what evidence we have that weirwood arrows can kill dragons,  but we really don't have evidence normal arrows can't.  We assume dragons are hard to kill, or they'd be useless in battle, but maybe they fly too high or move to fast - weirwood doesn't help that.  Maybe dragons are too tough for steel arrows, but weirwood is somehow stronger?  Doesn't make sense to me.

If Bran Snow knew of a secret weakness to kill dragons, how would he have learned it?  He probably never saw a dragon before, or even met anyone who had.  I just assumed he was a big tough guy who thought he could take on anything, and took the arms he was used to using.

[wolfmaid7]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The book was written from a certain viewpoint, and as I said we have that business of the weirwood arrows which were seemingly regarded as capable of shooting dragons out of the sky and may therefore have given Torrhen the leverage he needed to get the terms he wanted.

But with that, alas, to bed and I'll pick it up again in the morning.

Where was the whole Weirwood arrows capable of shooting Dragons out of the sky? I missed that.Who tried that out and succeeded? I don't know BC that's a lot of branches just to make sure.This whole idea is based on something that never hppened re: Dragons getting shot down by weirwood arrows,so how can he leverage terms? 

I think Torrhen was just being prudent,that was going to be a lot of death and destruction and i think the Starks would ave been the worse for wear.

4 hours ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

But the comet comes during the awakening.  For Ice, we have the direwolves, the various dreams, Bran's fall/crow stuff, and increased WW activity prior to the Comet; for Fire, we have Dany and the feelings/dreams with the eggs.

Yes, the comet does have something to do with the whole thing, both considering its timing relative to the birth of the dragons and the fact that various magic users talk about an increase in potency with the comet sightings.  However, unless the actors knew it would be coming, the comet cannot be the trigger due to it appearing after some of the ground work was done.

 

Plus, just semantics, but there is definitely a correlation.  You cannot reasonably argue against that.  Causation? sure, you can argue that.  Degree to which they are related? Undoubtedly arguable.  Correlation?  The simple fact that they (the Starks, the Targs, the relationships between Ice and Fire) are magical and exist in the same universe implies a correlation.

 

Also the weirwood dreams that Jaime keeps having whenever is in contact with the stuff

Eh eh.The Comet was already running and perception of it from our view seems wrongly cintingent on when it was physically observed by the majority of people in Westeros.That i 100% believe is not the case.There are individuals who have a different sought of sight who would perceive it way before the common folk could see it in the sky.That is what i'm speaking of.

I believe the Maester Luuwin and maybe those in the Citadel already saw it coming when they were observing the sky.We get this bit of detail.

During Robert's visit:

“A wooden box, you say?” Catelyn said. “Inside was a fine new lens for the observatory, from Myr by the look of it. The lenscrafters of Myr are without equal.” Ned frowned. He had little patience for this sort of thing, Catelyn knew. “A lens,” he said. “What has that to do with me?” “I asked the same question,” Maester Luwin said. “Clearly there was more to this than the seeming.” Under the heavy weight of her furs, Catelyn shivered. “A lens is an instrument to help us see.” “Indeed it is.” He fingered the collar of his order; a heavy chain worn tight around the neck beneath his robe, each link forged from a different metal.

Luuwin's unconcious non verbal communication of fingering his collar is a tell tale sign he got the message.Look to the sky.

Then we have this later on when Bran was telling Luuwin about another Crow dream.The one where he sees Ned in the crypt.

"The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky. 

I point this out to make note of two things.

1. Who ever sent the lens already knew of the Comet and wanted someone else to make note of it.In this case Luuwin.

2. Whoever sent the lens had the instrument to see the comet before anyone else could see it,which brings back to my intial point of you can't say that the actvity was prior to the Comet when the mechanisms by which one might observe said Comet is not equal across the board. Some will see it before they according to the WB have a different sought of sight which enabled them to see it a year ahead of everyone else.Some have lens and telescopes than enabled them to see it a month ahead of everyone else.Everyone else didn't see it until it was overhead because at that point it can't be missed.So yes there are some actors who did see it coming because they had different means to perceive its existance.

I can't argue against a correlation that burning Rickard and Brandon had something to do with wws emerging 15years later based on a supposed pact?Yeah i can.

1. Here it is:

"Let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III . . . even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when Prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon. (page 141 of WOIAF)

The pact of ice and fire was already broken my friend.It didn't even get off the ground. There's something interesting with it though was it really a pact of ice and fire. Rhaenyra was Targ/Arryn mix.But Prince Jacaerys Valeryon ( He may have been the bastard son of Harwin Strong)made the deal for a Princess to marry into the Starks.It never happen........Then

So i don't see how something that was already broken could be related to wws showing up.

I don't even think it is a fair assertion to classify all the Stark kids as "ice" there are elemental variations in all of them and the person(s) most associated with ice are Jon and Sansa.

Sure there can be many correlations between factions of ice and fire ,but Brandon and Rickard dying at the hands of Aerys is to far removed to be seen as a correlation IMO that would lead to the movements we are seeing.

Now if you had told me to consider Meera and Jojen's words of swearing by ice and fire as hinting toward that.I could buy that.It has a greater chance of alluding to something than Rickard and Brandon getting burnt.

 

[wolfmaid7]

4 hours ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

Well. the evidence we have is not that Torrhen was hoping to do anything with the arrows, but rather his bastard brother, Brandon Snow.  And, Brandon was the leader of the group that approached Aegon with terms (whether to actual negotiator at the end was Brandon or Torrhen I could not discover).  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brandon_Snow 

With them odds i would have bowed my knees to 30thousand against 45thousand plus 3 dragons.Plus,reading that it seems Brandon was going to klll Aegon and his sisters not the actuall Dragons.

[Zman919]

Melisandre is illustrating the role of the Queen of the South mentioned in Mathew 12:42, "The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here." Historically, this woman is Makueda, Egyptian Queen, wife of Solomon. Melisandre is from Asshai, the southern tip of the eastern continent.

The continent of Westeros is depicted as the figure of a person. The Neck is right where it should be. There's a chip on the shoulder unto begrudged Iron Born. The Fingers guard The Vale in the figures left hand and The Reach is catering a plow. The Wall separates the conscience from the Acts of the Fist of the First Men, where the brain would be. And Walder Fray no longer coddles The Twins.

This references Genesis 3:15,

" And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your descendants and her descendant. He will crush your head, and you will bruise His heel.”

And, also revelation 17:3,

"And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns", for the eastern continent, Essos, looks as a woman in prayer in the north western corner riding a dragon that is the rest of the continent.

The juxtaposition of the continents depict the Genesis prophecy halfway through, whereas The Broken Arm of Dorne rests as a foot having just been fragmented at the heel, ready to crush the head of the woman's descendant in retaliation. The tip of this foot is SunSpear, capital of Dorne, home to Oberyn, whose skull was crushed after Gregor Clegan swept out his heel.

Next reference is Daniel 11:40,

"At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood".

If the biblical allegory goes unaltered, then Jamie and Melisandre will attack Jon and Denarys only to be defeated, but somehow Melisandre will wind up with Drogon as the Northern army charges south.

The map Westeros and Essos is a diargram of Genisis 3:15 that correlates to the events G.R.R.M planned when he began writing.

 

In Daniel 2:1, Daniel prophesies unto Nebuchadnezzar the meaning of his dream of an image of a great statue. Daniel explains the meaning of this dream to be the procession of empires on the Earth. The description of this image happens to perfectly place the houses on the continent Westeros and allows us to compare them to that of Western Civilization, whereas;

--Head of Gold -- Babylon -- The Fist of the First Men -- (3 Eyed Raven, Night King, Melisandre)

--Chest and Arms of Silver -- Kingdom of Medes and Persians -- Winterfell -- House Stark

--Belly Thigh of Bronze -- Ancient Greece -- Harenhall, The Twins -- House Balish, House Fray

--Legs of Iron -- Ancient Rome -- Kings Landing -- House Lannister

--Feet of Iron and Clay -- Restoration of Rome -- Highgarden, Sunspear -- House Martell, House Tyrell

Not only is this a vivid illistration of the continent Westeros itself and the location of its seven houses, but also illustrates the chronological expansion of Westeros.

 

Good Map

Official Map

Nebuchadnezzar's Vision

Historical Timeline

 

 

This is under development. Next I will look at genealogy, the timeline and for more prophecies. 

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

But the comet comes during the awakening.  For Ice, we have the direwolves, the various dreams, Bran's fall/crow stuff, and increased WW activity prior to the Comet; for Fire, we have Dany and the feelings/dreams with the eggs.

Yes, the comet does have something to do with the whole thing, both considering its timing relative to the birth of the dragons and the fact that various magic users talk about an increase in potency with the comet sightings.  However, unless the actors knew it would be coming, the comet cannot be the trigger due to it appearing after some of the ground work was done.

 

I've argued before that its most likely not a case of the comet swinging by and showering magic pixie dust in its wake, but rather being drawn by the the increasing power of the magic.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

Well. the evidence we have is not that Torrhen was hoping to do anything with the arrows, but rather his bastard brother, Brandon Snow.  And, Brandon was the leader of the group that approached Aegon with terms (whether to actual negotiator at the end was Brandon or Torrhen I could not discover).  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brandon_Snow 

This is the point. It was negotiated and first Brandon Snow and then Torrhen Stark didn't go into the negotiating chamber empty handed. It may have been a weak hand or it may not, but at least they had something.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Zman919 said:

Melisandre is illustrating the role of the Queen of the South mentioned in Mathew 12:42, "The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here." Historically, this woman is Makueda, Egyptian Queen, wife of Solomon. Melisandre is from Asshai, the southern tip of the eastern continent...

Welcome to Heresy 

I don't know how far this might have been taken by GRRM amidst all the other literary and historical influence [and his own imagination] but we can't discount at least some of it, given the Devil showing Jesus the World allusion in the first of Bran's visions.

[House Cambodia]

30 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I've argued before that its most likely not a case of the comet swinging by and showering magic pixie dust in its wake, but rather being drawn by the the increasing power of the magic.

Doesn't the comet swing by quite frequently - a few times per century; hardly a once-in-8000-years event?

[House Cambodia]

22 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Welcome to Heresy 

I don't know how far this might have been taken by GRRM amidst all the other literary and historical influence [and his own imagination] but we can't discount at least some of it, given the Devil showing Jesus the World allusion in the first of Bran's visions.

We're long overdue for a 'it was all prophesied in the bible' theory!  

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Doesn't the comet swing by quite frequently - a few times per century; hardly a once-in-8000-years event?

It do. I don't quite recall the exact frequency but if it was a cause rather than merely a sign of the times we'd be knee deep in pixie dust by this time.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

With them odds i would have bowed my knees to 30thousand against 45thousand plus 3 dragons.Plus,reading that it seems Brandon was going to klll Aegon and his sisters not the actuall Dragons.

There's no evidence at this point that the Targaryen equivalent of the Bobsey Twins were actually calling themselves dragons - let alone anybody else. Dragonlords perhaps but not dragons. As for assassinations by night a knife is surer than an arrow whether of weirwood or not - why in that case weirwood? No, there's no reason to suppose that the passage isn't to be read literally and the Brandon was going to shoot the dragons with magic weirwood arrows, while they were on the ground rather than try and take them on the wing.

As to the odds, yup pretty long and good reason to negotiate, yet Brandon and Torrhen shortened them dramatically to get a good deal.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

"Let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III . . . even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when Prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon. (page 141 of WOIAF)

The pact of ice and fire was already broken my friend.It didn't even get off the ground..

A marriage pact and the failure to follow it through is hardly the same thing as the King of Fire burning the King of Winter 

[House Cambodia]

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

A marriage pact and the failure to follow it through is hardly the same thing as the King of Fire burning the King of Winter 

I quite warm to the argument made by a poster whom I forget now, that the marriage WOULD have broken the old pact had it proceeded. By not following it through, the pure First Men bloodline was preserved for Stark heirs. So what broke it was Ned marrying Catelyn and birthing non-pureblood babies.

Has the question been properly explored as to why Catelyn Tully was betrothed to the Stark heir against all precedent?

[Black Crow]

Just now, House Cambodia said:

Has the question been properly explored as to why Catelyn Tully was betrothed to the Stark heir against all precedent?

Its generally understood to be down to Rickard Stark's "southern ambitions".

House Tully are First Men

[Tucu]

Marriage of Stark heirs to southern houses is not against all precedent. You have marriages to a Blackwood and a Royce that are southern First Men houses; there are also marriages to a Manderly that is a southern First Men house with heavy Andal influence.

[Zman919]

On 7/3/2016 at 5:15 AM, Black Crow said:

Welcome to Heresy 

I don't know how far this might have been taken by GRRM amidst all the other literary and historical influence [and his own imagination] but we can't discount at least some of it, given the Devil showing Jesus the World allusion in the first of Bran's visions.

Thank you. By far the most critical forum I have come across.

The main idea I'm testing is if the Night King is either figured as Solomon or Jesus. The timeline answers Solomon but the genealogy points to Jesus. I haven't fully fleshed it out but I was thinking we may have God-Head trinity in  3 Eyed Raven, Night King, Melisandre.

 

Funny you say the devil. I actually am under the impression that the  3 Eyed Raven has always been Bran. 

Father. Son. Holy Spirit

Bran. Kight King. Melisandre's Fire

 

Redditors correcting me every time I said King of the North is how this theory came to be. The next thing I noticed were the similarities between Solomon and The Night King. Child sacrifice and censorship revolve around both figure's reputations, as well as heretical marriages.

[Arry'sFleas]

One of the most striking feature of the world created by the author are the uneven seasons.

This discussion about what may have happened when, reminds me that the Year of the False Spring (281 AC) sticks out as a unique event in the annals of the story. There has not been one before (nor since) and we have tales going back 8,000 years.

At least two important events took place during that false spring:

- the Harrenhal tourney where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty: an obvious intended alliance between Ice and Fire

- the appearance of The Knight of the Laughing Tree, whose shield bore the image of "a white weirwood with a laughing red face": again white and red; also such an unusual story that involved the Starks and that for some weird reason, neither Eddard nor Old Nan ever mentioned to their children, to the amazement of Meera.

I could not find any book text to show that both events are directly related nor if the disappearance of Lyanna can be traced to this particular year.

The WIF tells us that the year ended such ' On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush' and that Rhaegar 'with the coming of the new year' journeyed towards the Riverlands; on his way he came  upon Lyanna  near Harrenhal.

It strikes me that the seasons, mad as they are, would have such a unique hiccup and i suggest we should look that way for a trigger.

[Black Crow]

44 minutes ago, Arry'sFleas said:

One of the most striking feature of the world created by the author are the uneven seasons.

This discussion about what may have happened when, reminds me that the Year of the False Spring (281 AC) sticks out as a unique event in the annals of the story. There has not been one before (nor since) and we have tales going back 8,000 years.

At least two important events took place during that false spring:

- the Harrenhal tourney where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty: an obvious intended alliance between Ice and Fire

- the appearance of The Knight of the Laughing Tree, whose shield bore the image of "a white weirwood with a laughing red face": again white and red; also such an unusual story that involved the Starks and that for some weird reason, neither Eddard nor Old Nan ever mentioned to their children, to the amazement of Meera.

I could not find any book text to show that both events are directly related nor if the disappearance of Lyanna can be traced to this particular year.

The WIF tells us that the year ended such ' On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush' and that Rhaegar 'with the coming of the new year' journeyed towards the Riverlands; on his way he came  upon Lyanna  near Harrenhal.

It strikes me that the seasons, mad as they are, would have such a unique hiccup and i suggest we should look that way for a trigger.

Some interesting thoughts but I'm not sure about the cause and effect involved. Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna occurred after winter had returned so it clearly didn't cause it. I really don't see the dropping of roses in her lap as being sufficient to serve as a trigger and mindful that there are no recorded consequences of the earlier marriage pact or the failure to carry it through.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree is interesting, though once again not necessarily a trigger. The failure of anyone to tell the story to Bran before might be significant and if it is there may be some kind of eldritch warning involved in the device - the kind that nobody talks about - but while its tempting, I suspect that would be over-analysing what is probably no more than a literary device to tell the story without invoking Old Nan yet again.

Nevertheless, if we are to look at the False Spring as significant it probably isn't unreasonable to look to Harrenhal and or the Isle of Faces, but the point of the False Spring is that something which was happening or believed to be happening didn't, or was stopped. Summer was beginning, but Winter returned.