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Heresy 188


Black Crow

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21 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There is a wheel of time in play, and the first significant event that was replayed was the blood magic fire ritual that Mirri performed in the tent to resurrect Drogo. This is a replay of whatever happened at the tower of joy. Some Pig has a compelling argument that a similar blood magic ritual was tried on a dead Rhaegar, only he may have been resurrected successfully since Drogo's result was "not so much".  Dany lost her baby, Rhaego after she went into the tent in labor, but whoever was in the tower of joy during that ritual delivered a live son while it was the mother that died.

 

Ok I hadn't heard that theory before and am going to have to look for "Some Pig's" post. Wasn't it rumored that Rhaegar was cremated? We know that Ned brought Lyanna's remains back to Winterfell, to be buried in the crypts. But I wonder if there's a chance that he buried them together at Winterfell--kind of a play on Bael the Bard--instead of living in the crypts, they're together in death. Wasn't there supposed to be something going on with the crypts of Winterfell (I know about the dragon egg rumor etc), that they were supposed to be important somehow overall to the ASOIAF books?

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1 hour ago, Queen of Winter said:

Ok I hadn't heard that theory before and am going to have to look for "Some Pig's" post. Wasn't it rumored that Rhaegar was cremated? We know that Ned brought Lyanna's remains back to Winterfell, to be buried in the crypts. But I wonder if there's a chance that he buried them together at Winterfell--kind of a play on Bael the Bard--instead of living in the crypts, they're together in death. Wasn't there supposed to be something going on with the crypts of Winterfell (I know about the dragon egg rumor etc), that they were supposed to be important somehow overall to the ASOIAF books?

GRRM was asked what happened to Rhaegar's body and responded that it was burned in accordance with Targaryen custom - or words to that effect.

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2 hours ago, LordImp said:

I agree that Aerys killing Rickard with Fire might have been the trigger for the Others return . I think that one point of the ancient pact was there will be no direct bloodshed between ice and fire. So when Aerys ( fire) killed Rickard ( ice) the pact was broken . 

Exactly so.

Peace in the North was maintained by the Starks. This doesn't necessarily imply that they were in alliance with the three-fingered tree-huggers and the blue-eyed lot; given what we're told in the World Book that peace may have been maintained with an iron fist to prevent them breaking loose. 

Burning Lord Rickard; a hostile act by Fire over Ice is exactly the sort of thing to upset the uneasy peace.

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Is it possible that this Pact was broken when Rhaegar and co. tried to produce a son who could theoretically inherit both the Iron Throne and the seat of Winterfell? (under the perfect set of political circumstances, of course. I don't necessarily believe that this particular son will end up on the throne.)

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I also think Aegons conquest might have upset the pact . I think that ice and fire was to be represented by two bloodlines . Stark ( ice) and Dayne ( fire) but when the Targaryens came that balance was upset . I will also go as far as to say that Targaryens might be dark and corrupted fire while the Daynes are natural and pure fire . The Others will then be the corrupted ice while Stark are natural ice. 

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6 minutes ago, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Is it possible that this Pact was broken when Rhaegar and co. tried to produce a son who could theoretically inherit both the Iron Throne and the seat of Winterfell? (under the perfect set of political circumstances, of course. I don't necessarily believe that this particular son will end up on the throne.)

Nah, in the first place Jon son of Lyanna Stark has no direct claim on Winterfell - at least at the time Lyanna was abducted. You could argue I suppose that the executions of Rickard and Brandon and the demand for Eddard might be a clearing of the way, but that still left Benjen. And secondly there's not a hint of such a scenario.

In broader terms such a union of Ice and Fire would only strengthen whatever kind of understanding was reached between Torrhen and Aegon, while burning Lord Rickard obviously tore it apart.

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7 minutes ago, LordImp said:

I also think Aegons conquest might have upset the pact . I think that ice and fire was to be represented by two bloodlines . Stark ( ice) and Dayne ( fire) but when the Targaryens came that balance was upset . I will also go as far as to say that Targaryens might be dark and corrupted fire while the Daynes are natural and pure fire . The Others will then be the corrupted ice while Stark are natural ice. 

While I wouldn't rule out such a possibility and certainly not the possible interpretation of the Daynes and the Starks holding the balaance between Ice and Fire - which probably merits some serious discussion in itself - I'm still of a mind that Torrhen Stark didn't kneel in abject surrender but reached some kind of understanding - a pact, though not necessarily a formal one involving ink, parchment and sealing wax, broken by Aerys. And that rather than some lower key incident or provocation was what kicked things off, just as it did in initiating the game of thrones. The two are thereby linked and being fought out in parallel

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2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

While I wouldn't rule out such a possibility and certainly not the possible interpretation of the Daynes and the Starks holding the balaance between Ice and Fire - which probably merits some serious discussion in itself - I'm still of a mind that Torrhen Stark didn't kneel in abject surrender but reached some kind of understanding - a pact, though not necessarily a formal one involving ink, parchment and sealing wax, broken by Aerys. And that rather than some lower key incident or provocation was what kicked things off, just as it did in initiating the game of thrones. The two are thereby linked and being fought out in parallel

Yes. I actually think that the pact was a victory for Torrhen . He must have had a trumph card against Aegon. Theres definetly something mysterious about the pact . Maybe Torrhens kneeling was just a play so that the rest of Westeros tought the Starks knelt while it was in fact Aegon who knelt. The northernes did have more Independence than the other conquered Kingdoms . 

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11 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Yes. I actually think that the pact was a victory for Torrhen . He must have had a trumph card against Aegon. Theres definetly something mysterious about the pact . Maybe Torrhens kneeling was just a play so that the rest of Westeros tought the Starks knelt while it was in fact Aegon who knelt. The northernes did have more Independence than the other conquered Kingdoms . 


Isn't this also true of the Vale, though? They submitted, rather than being violently conquered, and Aegon didn't seem to care all that much about transforming Westerosi culture; rather than rebuilding the 'government,' he left the established feudal system intact, with the caveat that he had to be recognized as the High King at the top of the food chain.

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16 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Yes. I actually think that the pact was a victory for Torrhen . He must have had a trumph card against Aegon. Theres definetly something mysterious about the pact . Maybe Torrhens kneeling was just a play so that the rest of Westeros tought the Starks knelt while it was in fact Aegon who knelt. The northernes did have more Independence than the other conquered Kingdoms . 

I'm in agreement with Matthew here to a degree and mindful of Jaime Lannister's acceptance of Lord Tytos Blackwood's surrender, when he first courteously tells Blackwood he may kneel in his solar rather than in the courtyard and then once they are upstairs and alone tells him that he can kneel if he really really wants to but that he's more interested in reaching an agreement.

Its not a play in that I don't believe for a moment that Aegon knelt, but I do suggest that suitable terms were agreed first and latterly broken by Aerys - and its that act which I believe is the trigger for wakening the magic just as its also the same the trigger for the rebellion. That's the beauty of it. The other possibilities suggested over the past few pages may be relevant and perhaps even significant in the build-up, but its the direct assault on Ice by Fire which finally sets it all off.

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All this talk about the Pact of Ice and Fire made me wonder how old is the oath Meera and Jojen used. Maybe it is not an ancient oath, but one that changed as pacts were agreed to bring peace to the North:

"I swear it by earth and water" -> Starks and Crannogmen

"I swear it by bronze and iron" -> Starks and Andals

"We swear it by ice and fire" -> Starks and Targs?

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Wonder If Torrhen actually is one of the greatest heroes in Stark history . If Torrhen decided to go to war against Aegon it might have resulted in the annhiliation of the Stark line , then the magical blood of the Starks would have been gone. Unless the Starks would have warged into the dragons or something . 

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21 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Wonder If Torrhen actually is one of the greatest heroes in Stark history . If Torrhen decided to go to war against Aegon it might have resulted in the annhiliation of the Stark line , then the magical blood of the Starks would have been gone. Unless the Starks would have warged into the dragons or something . 

Well he certainly avoided a battle although I think Aegon avoided it too rather than risk his dragons being shot down. I'm still wary though these days of attributing magical blood to the Starks and instead seeing the direwolves as the source of it.

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 Let's also not forget that Jaeherys and Allysane bringing their dragons with them on their trip North was supposed to first time in _____ # years (possibly in forever) that a dragon was that far north

could have something to do with it as wel

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On 7/1/2016 at 10:24 AM, Black Crow said:

OK, just to continue the discussion from the last page of Heresy 187:

 

 

Something which occurs to me, which I don't think has been discussed before, is whether the trigger was Aerys' execution of Rickard Stark by FIRE.

Back in Aegon's day, Torrhen Stark knelt to the Targaryen conqueror. We don't really know why - there was that business of the weirwood arrows and an intention to slay dragons - so was it just a simple submission or was there a pact of Ice and Fire - a pact broken by Aerys when he set Fire to Rickard?

Its way to far apart to really serve as a correlation and from the purpose of the narrative if that's the case it mght has well be anything.IMO the Comet is why these factions are on the move.Not because it is directly related in a magical way,but because some percieve it as a sign.Or because they are using the Comet's appearence as a cover to increase activity because these people as they did ended up making these associations anyway.

On 7/1/2016 at 0:07 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I still assert that magic was released when the warding upon the hinge became unraveled and it happened fairly recent. I think it was shortly before the Starks found their direwolf pups. It's after they found the pups that certain cyclical events began to play out in reverse.

There is a wheel of time in play, and the first significant event that was replayed was the blood magic fire ritual that Mirri performed in the tent to resurrect Drogo. This is a replay of whatever happened at the tower of joy. Some Pig has a compelling argument that a similar blood magic ritual was tried on a dead Rhaegar, only he may have been resurrected successfully since Drogo's result was "not so much".  Dany lost her baby, Rhaego after she went into the tent in labor, but whoever was in the tower of joy during that ritual delivered a live son while it was the mother that died.

Since the tower of joy was at the end of Robert's Rebellion and the tent ritual was early on in the current story, this is the point where the wheel of time began to roll in reverse. However the hinge was opened, it happened after Robert's Rebellion, but before Drogo's failed resurrection.

Released from what? We have plenty instances in the book that indicates magic never went away.There's a lot of social bubbles in Westeros and depending on which bubble you reside your experiances may be drastically different. Skinchangers,and their ability to skinchange,prophetic dreams,necromany,aeromancy etc has never went away they were just in various bubbles.Now we are finding that those bubles are bursting because of signs and these people are branching out.From the point of view of our story local we have two particular families with members that have been separated by (1) a Wall or (2) Distance from other creatures that they are sensitive to.The moment the Starks came into contact with the Direwolves and Dany with her Dragon eggs as i've mentioned before lightning in a bottle and the flood gates opened wide to tree dreams,wolf dreams,crow dream,moon dreams dragon dreams.

The signs and symbols quickened the freaks and the freaks drew the magic.

 

5 hours ago, LordImp said:

I agree that Aerys killing Rickard with Fire might have been the trigger for the Others return . I think that one point of the ancient pact was there will be no direct bloodshed between ice and fire. So when Aerys ( fire) killed Rickard ( ice) the pact was broken . 

Again it seems to far apart to be directly correlated wasn't it the WB that said Torren saw what Aegon and his Dragons did he thought better of it.I mean there was noway they were going to win.

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7 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Again it seems to far apart to be directly correlated wasn't it the WB that said Torren saw what Aegon and his Dragons did he thought better of it.I mean there was noway they were going to win.

The book was written from a certain viewpoint, and as I said we have that business of the weirwood arrows which were seemingly regarded as capable of shooting dragons out of the sky and may therefore have given Torrhen the leverage he needed to get the terms he wanted.

But with that, alas, to bed and I'll pick it up again in the morning.

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13 minutes ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

 Let's also not forget that Jaeherys and Allysane bringing their dragons with them on their trip North was supposed to first time in _____ # years (possibly in forever) that a dragon was that far north

could have something to do with it as wel

Something to do with it certainly and quite possibly a deliberate provocation, but it doesn't quite compare with such an unambiguous declaration of war as burning Lord Rickard

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5 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Its way to far apart to really serve as a correlation and from the purpose of the narrative if that's the case it mght has well be anything.IMO the Comet is why these factions are on the move.Not because it is directly related in a magical way,but because some percieve it as a sign.Or because they are using the Comet's appearence as a cover to increase activity because these people as they did ended up making these associations anyway.

But the comet comes during the awakening.  For Ice, we have the direwolves, the various dreams, Bran's fall/crow stuff, and increased WW activity prior to the Comet; for Fire, we have Dany and the feelings/dreams with the eggs.

Yes, the comet does have something to do with the whole thing, both considering its timing relative to the birth of the dragons and the fact that various magic users talk about an increase in potency with the comet sightings.  However, unless the actors knew it would be coming, the comet cannot be the trigger due to it appearing after some of the ground work was done.

 

Plus, just semantics, but there is definitely a correlation.  You cannot reasonably argue against that.  Causation? sure, you can argue that.  Degree to which they are related? Undoubtedly arguable.  Correlation?  The simple fact that they (the Starks, the Targs, the relationships between Ice and Fire) are magical and exist in the same universe implies a correlation.

 

10 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Released from what? We have plenty instances in the book that indicates magic never went away.There's a lot of social bubbles in Westeros and depending on which bubble you reside your experiances may be drastically different. Skinchangers,and their ability to skinchange,prophetic dreams,necromany,aeromancy etc has never went away they were just in various bubbles.Now we are finding that those bubles are bursting because of signs and these people are branching out.From the point of view of our story local we have two particular families with members that have been separated by (1) a Wall or (2) Distance from other creatures that they are sensitive to.The moment the Starks came into contact with the Direwolves and Dany with her Dragon eggs as i've mentioned before lightning in a bottle and the flood gates opened wide to tree dreams,wolf dreams,crow dream,moon dreams dragon dreams.

The signs and symbols quickened the freaks and the freaks drew the magic.

Also the weirwood dreams that Jaime keeps having whenever is in contact with the stuff

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Is it ever actually stated in the story that weirwood arrows could slay dragons? Isn't that entire interpretation rooted around a Bran vision of a man cutting three branches off of the Winterfell heart tree? It's not an unreasonable inference, but Torrhen would be banking a lot on those three branches, even more so because, according to the WB, Aegon's more mundane army was also larger by that point.

I've always preferred the reading that Torrhen is one of the examples of a legitimately good ruler within the series--he saved his people a lot of grief, and for the most part life in the North stayed roughly the same, except that King Torrhen is now Lord Torrhen. I think he holds up particularly well when contrasted against the leaders in the War of the Five Kings.

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