Heresy 188

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

You were probably thinking of this SSM.

Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.

...which is very close. Not technically a statement that we will see a new Sword of the Morning in the canon, but I'd call it suggestive.

Thanks, that sounds like the one. I don't know how it relates to Dawn, but House Dayne was definitely in the mix of things with whatever it was that Rhaegar was up to in his final days, and (I'm certain, this time!) there's another SSM where GRRM comments that Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, and that she was one of Elia's lady companions at King's Landing. One way or another, I would expect we're going to get some important revelations that involve House Dayne's place in the big picture.

 

[Black Crow]

38 minutes ago, Other other stark said:

I don't think it's anyone person. It's going to be a bunch of people. Maybe grouped together or all in separate acts. But there is a lot of text supporting we will have a lot of people who have always been on the hero arc or will be going into a redemption arc adding there own pieces to the puzzle in order to save the day and thqt includes Jon, dany, Tyrion, Brienne, Jamie, and the hound. 

I agree which is largely why I dislike the assumption that R+L=Jon Targaryen first of his name, dragon-rider, wielder of lightbringer and all round Azor Ahai. This is and always has been an ensemble piece.

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree which is largely why I dislike the assumption that R+L=Jon Targaryen first of his name, dragon-rider, wielder of lightbringer and all round Azor Ahai. This is and always has been an ensemble piece.

I don't expect a happy team with everyone working together and defeating the Others.  I expect people to still try to kill each other for power and revenge while Jon is battling the Others, with some comming to their senses and joining him, and other people doing stupid, selfish things.  I think the wall comes down by someone's plotting for personal gain, Littlefinger would be perfect.

[Queen of Winter]

On 7/2/2016 at 11:24 AM, Muttering Ed said:

I'm more inclined to believe that the tragedy at Summerhall was the trigger since that event almost certainly involved fire and/or blood magic and the attempted fulfillment of prophecies. Or at least an attempt at fire/blood magic. The only other trigger I might favor would be the birth of Jon (the magical Ice/Fire Combo Platter) and/or the birth of Dany (magical conqueror of the Promised Prince persuasion). It just seems that something of a magical sort needs to be involved to get the old powers woken up.

I agree with you. Summerhall had something to do with further upsetting that balance of things and I do feel that blood magic is involved with it--and I don't think it can be just any blood (of course I could be totally wrong though!).

Rhaegar was born during the tragedy of Summerhall (fire).  We know rumor has it that they were trying to hatch dragons when the fire broke out.

We know there were at least three confirmed deaths:   King Aegon V Targaryen (Egg), Prince Duncan Targaryen (Prince of Dragonflies), Ser Duncan the Tall (Dunk).

So we have King, Prince, Knight or Father, Son, Vassal.

It seems to mirror Dany's "only death can pay for life".

This makes me think they were partially successful in hatching the dragons. They hatched, but during the process there was an accident, causing the fire and killing them, etc. I think that's one of the reasons, aside from the obvious, why Rhaegar is called "The Dragon Prince". Barristan refers to him as "The Last Dragon".

We also have a similar parallel running with Rhaegar's later abduction of Lyanna and The Prince of Dragonflies' (who died in the fire) story of abdicating his throne for love. Again, we have an angry spurned House Baratheon and a Targaryen Prince going at each other due to love interests. Not to mention we also have a witch in that story as well, the Ghost of High Heart.

Also note when Rhaegar he died it was upon the Trident (water).

So Rhaegar is born in fire, death in water.

When Queen Rhaella gave birth to Dany, it was during a fierce storm. (water)

Her mother died birthing her. (a sacrifice)

Now this is the only part that hangs me up a little, Dany doesn't die when she walks into the flames, but it's symbolic of a "rebirth" when she comes forth from the ashes. So you might say she was "reborn" through fire.

To bring the dragons forth there were three deaths.  Drogo, Rhaego, Mirri Maz Duur,.

I know technically they are using a horse during the ritual, but feel that Rhaego is the real sacrifice (even though we don't see his body IIRC).

That gives us have Khal (King), Prince, Witch (who was also a Slave) or Husband, Son, Slave/Witch.

Dany is reversed born in water and is "reborn" in fire.

Fire and water does seem to repeat all over the place......

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Queen of Winter said:

 

 

I agree with you. Summerhall had something to do with further upsetting that balance of things and I do feel that blood magic is involved with it--and I don't think it can be just any blood (of course I could be totally wrong though!).

Rhaegar was born during the tragedy of Summerhall (fire).  We know rumor has it that they were trying to hatch dragons when the fire broke out.

We know there were at least three confirmed deaths:   King Aegon V Targaryen (Egg), Prince Duncan Targaryen (Prince of Dragonflies), Ser Duncan the Tall (Dunk).

So we have King, Prince, Knight or Father, Son, Vassal.

It seems to mirror Dany's "only death can pay for life".

This makes me think they were partially successful in hatching the dragons. They hatched, but during the process there was an accident, causing the fire and killing them, etc. I think that's one of the reasons, aside from the obvious, why Rhaegar is called "The Dragon Prince". Barristan refers to him as "The Last Dragon".

We also have a similar parallel running with Rhaegar's later abduction of Lyanna and The Prince of Dragonflies' (who died in the fire) story of abdicating his throne for love. Again, we have an angry spurned House Baratheon and a Targaryen Prince going at each other due to love interests. Not to mention we also have a witch in that story as well, the Ghost of High Heart.

Also note when Rhaegar he died it was upon the Trident (water).

So Rhaegar is born in fire, death in water.

When Queen Rhaella gave birth to Dany, it was during a fierce storm. (water)

Her mother died birthing her. (a sacrifice)

Now this is the only part that hangs me up a little, Dany doesn't die when she walks into the flames, but it's symbolic of a "rebirth" when she comes forth from the ashes. So you might say she was "reborn" through fire.

To bring the dragons forth there were three deaths.  Drogo, Rhaego, Mirri Maz Duur,.

I know technically they are using a horse during the ritual, but feel that Rhaego is the real sacrifice (even though we don't see his body IIRC).

That gives us have Khal (King), Prince, Witch (who was also a Slave) or Husband, Son, Slave/Witch.

Dany is reversed born in water and is "reborn" in fire.

Fire and water does seem to repeat all over the place......

Very nice! Love the inversions and parallels! May I share your observations over at the other site? I know the gang over there would love this!

I've been nattering on about parallels and inversions for some time and for good reason. They're everywhere in the books, and once they've caught your attention they're easier to spot. When there are so many there's no doubt they're deliberate and purposeful. They're meant to train and prepare us to decipher the inversion chapters that began with AFFC Chapter 1 The Prophet and will continue into the next book or books as evidenced by the recently known titled chapter The Forsaken. 

But I digress. We were discussing possible triggers that released magic, hatched dragons, and returned white walkers. Wolfmaid said magic never left and while technically that may be true it certainly wasn't as strong as it is now, and I believe the reason was that prior to the trigger...magic had been forced underground...more like held back by a sort of door...a door warded with spells...with hinges that were so old they were rusted and squeaky, and magic was slowly seeping through the cracks.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't expect a happy team with everyone working together and defeating the Others.  I expect people to still try to kill each other for power and revenge while Jon is battling the Others, with some comming to their senses and joining him, and other people doing stupid, selfish things.  I think the wall comes down by someone's plotting for personal gain, Littlefinger would be perfect.

As to the first I refer you to the synopsis at the start of the thread; as to the second, the Wall is evil and needs to come down in order to help resolve all of this:

Blood built it

Blood stopped the building of it

Blood will bring it down

Black will be its fall

[Muttering Ed]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree which is largely why I dislike the assumption that R+L=Jon Targaryen first of his name, dragon-rider, wielder of lightbringer and all round Azor Ahai. This is and always has been an ensemble piece.

I think this why we are all here, right?  And you've all brought me along to some other fine heretical ideas too.

 

9 hours ago, Queen of Winter said:

I agree with you.......

Woohoo! My first agree! Does this mean I'm a true heretic now?? Do we have t-shirts or hats or something? 

[Queen of Winter]

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Very nice! Love the inversions and parallels! May I share your observations over at the other site? I know the gang over there would love this!

I've been nattering on about parallels and inversions for some time and for good reason. They're everywhere in the books, and once they've caught your attention they're easier to spot. When there are so many there's no doubt they're deliberate and purposeful. They're meant to train and prepare us to decipher the inversion chapters that began with AFFC Chapter 1 The Prophet and will continue into the next book or books as evidenced by the recently known titled chapter The Forsaken. 

But I digress. We were discussing possible triggers that released magic, hatched dragons, and returned white walkers. Wolfmaid said magic never left and while technically that may be true it certainly wasn't as strong as it is now, and I believe the reason was that prior to the trigger...magic had been forced underground...more like held back by a sort of door...a door warded with spells...with hinges that were so old they were rusted and squeaky, and magic was slowly seeping through the cracks.

Glad you enjoyed it! I love picking through the story and looking for things like this. Of course you may share it with the other board, I'd be happy to do so.

(One thing I want to say as well about Rhaegar's birth, is that he wasn't burned either--like Dany in her "rebirth". But Summerhall seems to be a large place, so he might have been born there but away from the flames, etc. His birth scenario could be part of what lead him to believe he might have been the Prince that Was Promised. Darn...now I have other ideas coming to the surface...and I have to go to work soon. LOL.)

And yes, I also agree that magic didn't totally disappear, but was dormant for some time until things started waking it up again---Summerhall, Dany's dragons being hatched, etc, etc.--there are multiple triggers. People forgot about magic and went on with their lives, which I think is part of the problem....

[Queen of Winter]

28 minutes ago, Muttering Ed said:

Woohoo! My first agree! Does this mean I'm a true heretic now?? Do we have t-shirts or hats or something? 

Hmmmm....T-shirts. You'd have to ask Black Crow about that one!

[Muttering Ed]

19 hours ago, Other other stark said:

I've never been sure if it's Arthur or rhaegar. What troubled me with Arthur is why wouldn't he just talk it out with Ned. Instead of fighting to the death. Because fighting is more towards keeping rhaegar secret. someone posted a link in this or last heresy I believe. It mentioned something about the dayne's possibly having "valarian" features and being one side of the parenting to what would become house stark. since dayne's are one of the earliest first men if I remember. This could make sense if the last hero was a dayne and founded house stark with his son making his son the "must always be a stark in winter fell". The reason I mention all this is because maybe rhaegar was really doing all this silly shit to get Arthur and lyanna close. 

Could Young Griff be a Dayne? Son of Arthur or Ashara? I haven't searched but I'm sure someone has put forth that theory before. Would be funny if he's actually the true bastard of Ned Stark. 

[Muttering Ed]

Speaking of Daynes and the Sword of the Morning, the last mummers version of the Tower of Joy scene had a nice lingering shot of young Ned placing Ser Arthur's sword against Lyanna's bed as he went to her side. I presume we were supposed to notice it, and we'll be seeing it again. Or maybe that's a clue to who's been swording who. I need a new book to drive me crazy. 

[Queen of Winter]

15 minutes ago, Muttering Ed said:

Could Young Griff be a Dayne? Son of Arthur or Ashara? I haven't searched but I'm sure someone has put forth that theory before. Would be funny if he's actually the true bastard of Ned Stark. 

I believe Ashara was "dishonored" after the Harrenhal tourney, and there's a theory the child was Brandon Stark's--Ned's Brother.

1 minute ago, Muttering Ed said:

Speaking of Daynes and the Sword of the Morning, the last mummers version of the Tower of Joy scene had a nice lingering shot of young Ned placing Ser Arthur's sword against Lyanna's bed as he went to her side. I presume we were supposed to notice it, and we'll be seeing it again. Or maybe that's a clue to who's been swording who. I need a new book to drive me crazy. 

That's the "Born Under the Bleeding Star" part of the prophecy......

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Queen of Winter said:

Glad you enjoyed it! I love picking through the story and looking for things like this. Of course you may share it with the other board, I'd be happy to do so.

(One thing I want to say as well about Rhaegar's birth, is that he wasn't burned either--like Dany in her "rebirth". But Summerhall seems to be a large place, so he might have been born there but away from the flames, etc. His birth scenario could be part of what lead him to believe he might have been the Prince that Was Promised. Darn...now I have other ideas coming to the surface...and I have to go to work soon. LOL.)

And yes, I also agree that magic didn't totally disappear, but was dormant for some time until things started waking it up again---Summerhall, Dany's dragons being hatched, etc, etc.--there are multiple triggers. People forgot about magic and went on with their lives, which I think is part of the problem....

I'm trying very hard to stay on the current topic of triggers here, yet your post applies to the current discussion here and the ones below:

wheel of time - cyclical events

parallels and inversions - beginning of discussion

One of the points "over there" that also applies here is the repeating or cycling of events. I haven't nailed down the exact order, but it goes something like this:

Birth: Dawn Age, Direwolves
Invading conqueror: First Men
Pact: Children and First Men
Long Night
Blood Magic Ritual
Comet Strikes Moon = Lord Comet steals Moon(maid) from the sky
The Wall

Comet: Lord Commander steals Moonmaid
Blood magic sacrifice 
Pact: war-Lord of Winterfell and King Beyond Wall remove Nights King
Was a new cycle averted or delayed? 
Did it fail because it was out of order? 
Blood magic sacrifice should have brought the comet.

Birth: Religion, Faith of Seven
Invading conqueror: Andals
Pact: intermarriage of Andals to First Men
Long Night?
Blood Magic Ritual?
Comet: Storm Lord steals Moonmaid Elenei - aka Faith removes magic from realm
The Wall - taken over by Andals

Birth: Water magic, Stone Men
Blood Magic Ritual: Garin the Great - Curse of Garin
Invading Conquerors: Rhoynar
Pact - Dorne and Rhoynar
Long Night?
Blood Magic Ritual?
Comet?
The Wall?
Lord steals Moonmaid?

Birth: Dragons
Invading Conqueror: Targaryen
Pact: realm to dragons
Long Night?
Blood Magic Ritual: Summerhal
Comet?
The Wall?
Lord steals Moonmaid - Rhaegar and Ashara love affair?

Rebirth: Faith of Seven
Invading Conqueror: Rebirth of Andal control
Pact? 
Blood Magic Ritual: Tower of Joy
Comet
The Wall?
Storm Lord Robert steals Moonmaid Lyanna (I know this is my personal opinion)

The last cycle above seems like it occurred out of order:

Reinvading Conqueror: Faith of Seven rises up to place an Andal back on the throne
Storm Lord steals Moonmaid
Pact-broke-Robert's Rebellion
Blood Magic Ritual -Tower of joy
The Wall - ignored except to send criminals to
The Comet
Rebirth: Dragons

Edited to add: I forgot to clarify my point in that since the current cycle seems out of order that it's proof that magic was fully released sometime after either the tower of joy or Summerhal...both places, I believe, were blood magic rituals.

[Other other stark]

Feather, if you don't mind me asking what is the other site? 

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, Other other stark said:

Feather, if you don't mind me asking what is the other site? 

The House of Black and White, but my apologies to BC...I'm really not trying to take anyone away from the discussion here...truly!  It just so happens that we're discussing similar themes.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Muttering Ed said:

Speaking of Daynes and the Sword of the Morning, the last mummers version of the Tower of Joy scene had a nice lingering shot of young Ned placing Ser Arthur's sword against Lyanna's bed as he went to her side. I presume we were supposed to notice it, and we'll be seeing it again. Or maybe that's a clue to who's been swording who. I need a new book to drive me crazy. 

First up, welcome, welcome!

Second up--we should probably avoid too much show talk, but I agree with you.

Third up, if we go to the books, there's a fair amount of Sword of the Morning imagery around Jon and connections between the Starks and Daynes in general.

As for the tower of joy--the books give us 4 accounts of that fight in Game and Clash. In 3 out of 4, the only combatants mentioned are Ned and Arthur--as though the books are telling us that something about their fight mattered more. Clash really drives it home when Bran notes how sad Ned is when taking about Arthur's death.

And in Ned's dream of the lead up to the fight, only Arthur gets emotion from Ned--Ned speaks to him sadly. And the last thing Ned sees before "they came together in a rush of steel and shadow" is Arthur, holding his fabulous sword aloft. 

So, show or no, seems like there's a good chancethe books are likely telling us that the ultimate significance of the fight was between Arthur and Ned. And that would all make a LOT of sense if Arthur was Lyanna's lover and the father of her child.

[Brad Stark]

47 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

First up, welcome, welcome!

Second up--we should probably avoid too much show talk, but I agree with you.

Third up, if we go to the books, there's a fair amount of Sword of the Morning imagery around Jon and connections between the Starks and Daynes in general.

As for the tower of joy--the books give us 4 accounts of that fight in Game and Clash. In 3 out of 4, the only combatants mentioned are Ned and Arthur--as though the books are telling us that something about their fight mattered more. Clash really drives it home when Bran notes how sad Ned is when taking about Arthur's death.

And in Ned's dream of the lead up to the fight, only Arthur gets emotion from Ned--Ned speaks to him sadly. And the last thing Ned sees before "they came together in a rush of steel and shadow" is Arthur, holding his fabulous sword aloft. 

So, show or no, seems like there's a good chancethe books are likely telling us that the ultimate significance of the fight was between Arthur and Ned. And that would all make a LOT of sense if Arthur was Lyanna's lover and the father of her child.

Arthur and Ned were leaders of both sides as well as the best swordsmen on both sides.  The flashbacks are Ned's POV.  Makes sense regardless that the fight was between them.

As I said, there is no reason to hide Jon's parentage if Arthur is his father.

The other problem I have with Arthur being Lyanna's lover is this would not go over well with Rheagar or the other Kingsguard.  It is possible we have a King Arthur and Lancelot situation where Arthur Dayne kept their affair a secret, but I don’t see GRRM doing that.

[Sly Wren]

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Arthur and Ned were leaders of both sides as well as the best swordsmen on both sides.

No--Hightower is Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. He's in charge. Though yes, Arthur is the best swordsman.

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

The flashbacks are Ned's POV.  Makes sense regardless that the fight was between them.

But why wouldn't Ned be sad about the others? Why only sad about Arthur? And in his dream, why only speak to Arthur sadly? And why would we never hear about the others?

And why does Martin drag in Edric Dayne to tell us that even though Ned killed their literally chosen son (Martin's said the Daynes choose their Sword of the Morning specifically), the Daynes like the Starks and nickname their heir after the man who killed their chosen son? We don't get anything similar re: Hightowers and Whents. Something about the Daynes are distinct re: the Starks in the novels.

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

As I said, there is no reason to hide Jon's parentage if Arthur is his father.

Robert wants to kill Targaryens because they are related to Rhaegar--the man who took his love from him. He wants to kill them all until they are as dead as their dragons and then piss on their graves (Roberts words in Game, Eddard II). He does not want them dead for political expediency--only gets riled up about killing when he thinks of Rhaegar.

And Ned very clearly thinks in Game, Eddard II that Robert's hatred of Targs is a madness with him. When Robert starks talking politics, Ned calms down. But when Robert is talking about hating Rhaegar's relatives, Ned gets very worried and angry and has to work to keep his temper.

In Ned's mind, Robert would kill anyone related to the man who took his love from him. Regardless of the surname. That's most likely why Ned lies about Jon. And that holds whether the father is Rhaegar, Arthur, or assistant stable boy #4. 

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

The other problem I have with Arthur being Lyanna's lover is this would not go over well with Rheagar or the other Kingsguard.  It is possible we have a King Arthur and Lancelot situation where Arthur Dayne kept their affair a secret, but I don’t see GRRM doing that.

I doubt it would go over well, true. Though the Arys Oakheart chapter in Feast makes it very clear that kingsguards have paramours. Even ideal kingsguards. 

As for Arthur and Lancelot, that assumes Rhaegar was involved with Lyanna--and we don't know that. We have examples of Starks being taken hostage--Sansa, Arya, and Jon--held for political reasons, even falling in love or developing crushes on their captors. So, Martin has shown us something potentially similar already.

[Matthew.]

I think something that nags me about Arthur Dayne being Jon's father is that it suggests that Arthur Dayne's vows are flexible enough that he fathered a son, yet so inflexible that he had to die fulfilling his last orders at the ToJ, even if those orders are nearly irrelevant-- Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, so if he wants to live up to the 'spirit' of his office, why not seek out Viserys?

And, of course, the battle with Eddard wasn't a certain thing, so the alternative is that Arthur Dayne actually succeeds, and kills Lyanna's brother, kills the uncle of his son.

The show can be unreliable, but nonetheless, the 'canon' of the show is that AD remained in Dorne under Rhaegar's orders. Why? Has he been ordered to guard his own son? To guard him even against Eddard? And if not, why is the KG there? The ronin theory might explain why they'd die at a futile post, but it doesn't explain why they've been stationed there in the first place.

[e1kabong]

On AD as Jon's dad: I find it highly implausible (as much as I love any AD conspiracy theories) and against the logic of the clues we've been given. The presence of the other Kingsguard willing to fight to the death for Rhaegar's baby fits; not so much if the dad was Arthur (unless they were lied to that it was Rhaegar's, but that's a mess of logic that has no real basis in text).

Likewise, I'm not sure how secretive they would need to be. A Dayne bastard wouldn't be a threat to Robert or the Daynes, since Arthur wasn't even the eldest son, anyway (IE - they have a viable succession line). Sure, there's Robert's wrath, but would he actually kill a child that doesn't threaten his crown? Robert's a jerk, but I don't think he's evil. I don't think he ordered the deaths of Elia and her children and he only ordered an assassination on Dany when it was clear she could be a potential threat down the road.

I also don't think that Ned would talk of Dayne so highly if he was the force behind the kidnap and rape(?) of his sister. We know that Ned seems to value honor more than life itself. He hates Jaime for sullying his honor and breaking his oath, regardless of the circumstances and morality of the situation. If Rhaegar is Jon's father and Dayne was ordered to guard Lyanna, Ned meets Dayne as a paragon of honor, a knight following his dead prince's orders in spite of the morality of the situation, to the bitter end. If Dayne was the father, Ned meets him as an oathbreaker (remember, the Kingsguard vows are very much like The Watch's about chastity) and thus have the same contempt that he did for Jaime (maybe slightly less, but you get the idea). 

I'm certainly willing to entertain other papa choices for Jon, but Dayne is just too illogical for me to consider with too much weight. He's still alive, though, so who knows .