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Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD


Werthead

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5 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

I don't see how that would happen, as what creates the world? What sung the song of creation? The idiotic creationist viewpoint kind of makes sense here - if there is a creation there must be a creator.

There are wanky religious ideas that could explain it, but the simplest is that God created everything and then split.

God fracturing created the world, because the world is not One, it's a lot of things, ergo One becoming Many = creating the world.

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There could be some parallels to Bakker's short story about the guy who creates a simulation and then some shit happens, I don't remember. Have you read that, Baztek? 

What was it called, again? I can't find it on his website. 

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I must say, I haven't read a book with this high of a WTF factor in quite a while. Probably not since the last Bakker, or maybe some of Wolfe's more weirder short stories? Kind of reminds me of the earlier Malazan. *ducks rocks*

I also greatly anticipate Kalbears OH NO SCOTT BAKER moment, although I think I got spoiled for that already.

Also you know, for as much as I tend to shit on Bakker and certain of his, uh fans, I al enjoying the fuck out of this.

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2 hours ago, Baztek said:

God fracturing created the world, because the world is not One, it's a lot of things, ergo One becoming Many = creating the world.

But why would the World be created with God's plan, then? Why would sorcery be such an affront? Why would people be able to recollect the sound or emotion of God when doing the Cishaurim thing? 

Also doesn't go with the Nonmen storyline of them breaking the God into gods. 

Quote

I also greatly anticipate Kalbears OH NO SCOTT BAKER moment, although I think I got spoiled for that already.

It was the rape of Proyas. Page 120ish or so. 

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1 hour ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

But why would the World be created with God's plan, then? Why would sorcery be such an affront? Why would people be able to recollect the sound or emotion of God when doing the Cishaurim thing? 

Also doesn't go with the Nonmen storyline of them breaking the God into gods. 

It was the rape of Proyas. Page 120ish or so. 

Yeah I actually face palmed at that one. But I'll digress and wsit for the forthcoming Bakker and Men thread. :P

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5 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Does anyone have any plausible theory of why that even had to be included?   Yes, yes, I foresee the snarky answers about Bakker's issues.  But is there any narrative theme or plot explanation?  I don't know of any. 

Like I said, the only thematic plausible answer I can think is that it is to give us the view that Kellhus can do all of these horrible things but remains holy, and will be the savior. Mimara will see every single hideous sin and note that he is still completely saved. In this way it is meant to make us gasp in revulsion (as likely mimara will too) but show either how fucked up the objective morality is or show us that who judges is very flawed.

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24 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Does anyone have any plausible theory of why that even had to be included?   Yes, yes, I foresee the snarky answers about Bakker's issues.  But is there any narrative theme or plot explanation?  I don't know of any. 

Honestly, it just seems like his attempt to "prove" he can have male pov characters raped on screen too.

 

maybe that's snarky, but whatever. Perhaps the plaintive answer is that it is the only way to make sure Proyas is not a believer, that the judas role is too important to be trusted to a believer, moenghus needs cnaiur to kill him, after all. On the other hand, saubon becomes a believer just before death and for believing upon death gets kicked into hell, hell apparently being a timeless/all-times state. And since a topos is a place where he'll leaks through to the world, he shows up back in time.  Did I get that right?

 Or as a believer, saubon gets sucked into the carapace when kellhus becomes the nogod, and obviously gets spit out into the topos of mendedda when kellhus the no god is killed back in the ancient times at mengedda. 

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14 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Sorry for the quote box.

 

Finally got my copy. Based on what I could tell just flipping through, seems like Onkis is the head on a pole. Kellhus' POV mentions it's what's behind "all seeing", and he also says something's been speaking to him from the darkness that comes before, a voice he can't discern the origin of. Is Onkis this voice? Is she the primordial other and what began the watcher-watched circuit? LIke first you have the one, then this inexplicable voice or thing, which is paradoxical, which collapses the One's "All-Possibility" wavefunction (Kellhus does say the Absolute needs to everything, even what it isn't) and created the Hundred and everything else. 

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12 hours ago, Triskan said:

Does anyone have any plausible theory of why that even had to be included?   Yes, yes, I foresee the snarky answers about Bakker's issues.  But is there any narrative theme or plot explanation?  I don't know of any. 

I took it as Kellhus showing Proyas that everything Kellhus has led him to believe isn't true. And being as devout as Proyas is, buggering him sent the message home loud and clear.

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I asked Bakker a question in the TGO ARC author Q&A over at SA. Essentially it was wether men's belief could effect damnation when considering the 100, since the objective morality of the God is set, I thought there could be a chance that belief could affect the 100. Here's his answer.

Morality is objective, so it doesn't matter what Men believe. Lies are also objective, insofar as they a powerful impact on the reality around them, and insofar as they are sinful. They don't become true so much as determine what is taken to be true. Lies are sins precisely because they have real consequences.

My thought, and I'm probably way off, but could this be anything related to the haloes?

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I honestly thought Kal was referring to Theliopa being abused by Inrilatas.  But RS Bakker, no!—indeed.

I figure that in Kellhus' mind, Proyas > Saubon, in regards to utility at least.  With all the revelations of their meetings, I think Kellhus anticipated Proyas wanting to get himself killed on a suicide mission to Dagliash.  Proyas being raped emasculates him in the eyes of Saubon, which then compels Saubon to not being outdone by this person who he sees as less than himself.  So Saubon gets to go on Mission Impossible: Dagliash. 

But surely, Kellhus could've used some tactic other than sexual abuse?

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Thematically it mirrors Moenghus the Elder's corruption of young Cnaiur, yeah? Cnaiur became the most violent of all men because Moenghus led him to the trackless steppe of thought. Where Kellhus has now delivered Proyas?

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35 minutes ago, Madness said:

Thematically it mirrors Moenghus the Elder's corruption of young Cnaiur, yeah? Cnaiur became the most violent of all men because Moenghus led him to the trackless steppe of thought. Where Kellhus has now delivered Proyas?

It doesn't though. Moe seduces cnaiur to make him fight his father for his love.

Proyas gets raped...to chase proyas away? To make proyas go to akka? To alienate him with Saubon, though that hardly matters now.

It just is very bizarre as a goad given that Kellhus is a person who can cause others to kill themselves in his name.

Thelis rape is even less defensible. It vaguely makes sense (though why Theli and not let, say, serwa or Esmi or kelmomas less so) but provides no new data, especially given her death. It'd be one thing to reveal this in TJE - but revealing it two chapters before she dies via masonry doesn't do a lot. 

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Finished bookerino.

Questions:

 

What was the point of the Ark blowing shit up prior to its own crash?  Attempting to slow itself?   Did they come out of warp-drive without the breaks on?

   As to why/how the Inchoroi never nuked the Nonmen, perhaps they didn't have the fissile material before - if the Ark runs on antimatter or something fancy, they might've been mining uranium with Sranc and building centrifuges after the Second Apocalypse, who knows.  Maybe they're gonna use dragons to drop nukes on the major cities.  

If they did have the Nukes in prior eras, not using them is stupid.  But that's par for the course for the Inchoroi.

Kellhus knowing the effects of radiation poisoning is straight up weird though.  Maybe on the Outside he could see all of the living things across the universe?  But then the dude ought to know about guns.  Guns aren't hard to make.  If he knows about guns and wants the ordeal to succeed, there's no reason the Ordeal isn't armed with submachine guns.   I mean, sheeeeeit, if Kellhus somehow knows about nukes and other technology, there's so many other possibilities.

So what's the defective Anasurimbor boy's importance going to be?  What's he gonna do, live in the woods forever? 

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On 7/3/2016 at 0:56 AM, Madness said:

It says "one of the godfathers" - I saw an ARC for all of half hour super hungover - but for what it matters I protested too, DR.

It also mentions that Bakker's fantasy books have some 775,000 copies in print. There was some debate about this, IIRC.

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