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Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD


Werthead

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It does seem really low. I know it often looks like I enjoy shitting on the guy but I'm usually just poking fun. (I mean a few of the more serious hardcore fans irk me but you all know that by now). I would think he had to have at least been near half a mil, unless it's only counting US sales. I know he dies better in the UK.

Also still not sure some days if he's not Glen Cooks secret Canadian alter ego. :P

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Anyway. I don't think I actually expected not to like this book but I didn't really like all that much. As far the bad things in the book go...

The resolution to the WLW's arc was very disappointing. I was waiting to see what sort of genius metaphysical method Kellhus was going to come up with to beat this guy, who seems unbeatable. Or that Kellhus's death at the hands of the WLW was going to be a part of his master plan of doing whatever he's doing. But if the explanation given in this thread is correct then it has to be one of the most disappointing things I've read - and the silliest. If Bakker had revealed that stuff about Ajokli earlier in the series it would have been still disappointing but somewhat acceptable. But to come up with a solution as convenient as this and reveal the reasoning behind it in the same book is really not what I was expecting. This single-handedly made me realize that I'm wasting my time on this series.

Another thing I was looking forward to was how Esmenet was going to deal with the Fanim invasion. Is she going to succeed assuming that Kellhus abandoned the empire? What happens when the Fanim capture the city? Even assuming that Kellhus did not abandon the empire, can he take on Meppa?

In the end Kellhus shows up and kills everyone with his usual awesomeness. GGEZ. Which is something that he could have done at any point regardless of anything that Esmenet did.

Also, Bakker advances the plot by blowing up a nuke in the north and an earthquake in the south. Total mindfuck.

Bakker mentioned in interviews that TUC is the darkest fantasy book he has ever heard of, and there is a lot of dark stuff in TGO to be sure, but with the whale mothers, Kellhus raping Proyas, Theli's rape revealed before she dies in an earthquake, the men of the ordeal fucking sranc and eating them, etc. The book felt more like a shit show than dark fantasy.

That, and the fact that I'm still giggling at the Cnaiur thing very much overshadowed all the good stuff in the Achamian/Mimara and Sorweel/Serwa arcs.

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19 minutes ago, Hello World said:

If Bakker had revealed that stuff about Ajokli earlier in the series it would have been still disappointing but somewhat acceptable. But to come up with a solution as convenient as this and reveal the reasoning behind it in the same book is really not what I was expecting.

 

Ajokli and Kelmomas were setup in TJE.  Kel being possessed/favored/a Narindar of Ajokli was a frequently discussed theory.

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In the end Kellhus shows up and kills everyone with his usual awesomeness. GGEZ. Which is something that he could have done at any point regardless of anything that Esmenet did.

Yet, the consensus from everyone was that Kellhus has abandoned Momemn. He didn't kill everyone with his awesomeness. He killed Fayanal, Ptsama used Malowebi and if you noticed Meppa was not dead and probably has a use for him too. I think that what he was trying to show with Kellhus relenting and coming to salvage what he could, is the change occurring in Kellhus.

Also, Bakker advances the plot by blowing up a nuke in the north and an earthquake in the south. Total mindfuck.

Well the nuke would've been a brilliant move by the Consult if Kellhus hasn't discovered it. The first brilliant move by the Consult I might add. The first earthquake was caused by Yatwer to bring down the walls. The second, I assume was Ajokli's. 

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1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

As to not spoil those who haven't read TGO........

I'm pretty sure those that don't want to be spoiled can not click on the spoiler Q&A threads... There are already spoiler threads out in the open, anyway. Like this one.

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2 minutes ago, Hello World said:

I'm pretty sure those that don't want to be spoiled can not click on the spoiler Q&A threads... There are already spoiler threads out in the open, anyway. Like this one.

That was the reasoning behind it and also why they took down the Quroum. I guess some people don't want to be spoiled, yet can't stop themselves from clicking on the threads. There have been no spoiler threads here until books hit the shelves at B&N. 

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The problem with the earthquake and the resulting death by masonry is that it implies resolutions that have zero narrative arc. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is not a compelling way to tell a story for most people. If gods can summon earthquakes why haven't they done so prior to this? If they can do that, why can't they just hit Kellhus with a bolt of lightning? 

Same kind of thing with Kellhus showing up. Esmi doesn't do anything to defeat the enemies at the end of the day. Kellhus simply decides on a whim to go against his plan and save momemn. That could have happened virtually at any time from TJE on. Maith, inrilatus, theli all could be alive. The WLW could have been wiped out at almost any time. Everything Esmi went through and sacrificed and tried - doesn't matter.

I didn't dislike the book, but like @Hello World these things made me think for the first time that narrative arcs were not going to end very satisfactorily.

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Yea, the way it ended left me a little disappointed also. But, I have to think that for now Kellhus isn't done in Momemn. Or, does he teleport right back to the Ordeal? I don't think so. Or his "tutoring" of Proyas is all for naught. When he left Proyas he said Proyas was the only one who could make the tough choices to come. So, it seems as if Kellhus will be gone for a while, at least.

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Kellhus returns to Momemn to "salvage what he may" - I don't think he anticipated the nuke, which has basically destroyed the ordeal's food supply, so he returns to the Empire to try again.  But that doesn't fit with his preparing Proyas to lead the Ordeal.  I also don't understand the necessity of turning Proyas into an unbeliever.

 

I'm not sure how to square the two.

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Something I wish had happened was in the WLW povs to hint at an earthquake happening. 

The plausible crackpottery I have about the momemn arc is that Kellhus knew the gods would send the WLW and needed kelmomas to defeat it (he briefly says something like "why can't you remember your whelming") and that this whole thing was done as an exercise to draw out yatwer, draw out ajokli, and draw out fayanal. If that's the case it's a bit more defensible, though we would also need an explanation of how Kellhus knows to come back when the nuke hits.

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26 minutes ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

Kellhus returns to Momemn to "salvage what he may" - I don't think he anticipated the nuke, which has basically destroyed the ordeal's food supply, so he returns to the Empire to try again.  But that doesn't fit with his preparing Proyas to lead the Ordeal.  I also don't understand the necessity of turning Proyas into an unbeliever.

I'm not sure how to square the two.

Yeah, that confused me too. The only way I can square it is if Kellhus is lying when he said he's come to Momemn to salvage what he may. That the Proyas conditioning and preparing him to meet Akka is the truth, and him coming to Momemn was planned all along.

This was one of the reasons that I said in the review that the story sort of stops. It is possible that we'll get answers to these things, and it'll make it compelling. With the reveals about things like the Whale Mothers just being a random thing, it makes me think that it's more likely that it simply won't be answered, and why I became more concerned that this will end like Lost did. 

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On 04/07/2016 at 7:10 AM, Triskan said:

Does anyone have any plausible theory of why that even had to be included?   Yes, yes, I foresee the snarky answers about Bakker's issues.  But is there any narrative theme or plot explanation?  I don't know of any. 

I took it as Kellhus breaking Proyas's belief and unerring trust in him, as he foresaw that Proyas would have to lead the Great Ordeal in his absence.

Exactly how he foresaw that when he didn't forsee the nuke, or how he knew Proyas would live and Saubon die as a result of the nuke, is unclear.

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175,000 is what I meant

The original PoN trilogy had sold 175,000 copies by 2008. Overlook just reused the same press info again. I assume they couldn't be bothered to re-collate the figures.

The 1 million figure seemed high but not impossible: sales of five books stretched out across thirteen years worldwide could get you to 1 million without getting Bakker mega-rich or anything. But it also feels like Overlook would have used that figure if it had more credence to it.

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Exactly how he foresaw that when he didn't forsee the nuke, or how he knew Proyas would live and Saubon die as a result of the nuke, is unclear.

Ya know, the obvious answer is that Kellhus was the one responsible for the nuke.

  • How would he know to find the nuke where it was? He put it there.
  • How would he know what a nuke does? He made it, experimented with it. 
  • Why would he use it there? It was a trap to kill all the sranc. And it succeeded brilliantly, apparently. He sacrificed a bunch of his army to wipe out the horde of sranc and tons of bashrag. 
  • How would he know to condition Proyas and know he was going to be leaving? Well, that was his plan all along.

Now how would Kellhus have the scientific and engineering knowledge and technology to build a nuke? RELAX, guys. It's a fantasy novel. 

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My reaction to the nuke was a little bit, "shit, the consult has dunyain captives"

i also wonder if kellhus made the nuke. It also doesn't have to be a nuke, just an elaboration of sorcery and objects as seen in things like the black cauldron helmet sorweel wears. Could kellhus have harvested souls from mengedda attached them to the capsule and then did a blending of gunpowder and sorcery to elaborate his own self invented and primitive approximation of the Tekne?

as for momemn. It was either in the plan all along, or it is how kellhus avoids the gods predicting him, he takes random choices outside himself, like the twig, and makes choices based on that. So he stays less predictable if he externalizers some decisions to a random generator.

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It had an electronic display screen though, which isn't the sort of thing I imagine Kellhus putting on a nuke he designed (he would have no need for it, and he's never seen a screen before).

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Cleatly, i need a copy of the book for reference, but the criterion sale at Barnes and noble holds preference for available funds over buying a book I've already read and will buy two copies of next week (one digital, one physical).

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12 hours ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Now how would Kellhus have the scientific and engineering knowledge and technology to build a nuke? RELAX, guys. It's a fantasy novel. 

I mean if there's anyone who could actually figure out how to put the old Inchoroi tech back to practice, it would be Kellhus (or any other Dunyain for that matter), wouldn't it? That would require they had access to some of it though. Or to a database.

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